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-   -   Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16339)

wavy July 22nd, 2004 3:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lorna
haven't been on for a few days but thanks Darkillness for finding the quote.
But it raises a question?
Rowling did not say we shouldn't feel to sorry for Snape, she said
we shouldn't think him too nice.
That is not the same thing.

Keep in mind, too, the timing of JKR's quotes. Early on, before GOF, she said he was a horrible horrible person, but there was more to him than meets the eye and we should keep an eye on him. Then, we find out in Book 4 that he was a DE who spied for the Order.

After OOTP, she says basically the same thing - that he is not nice and that he's worth keeping an eye on.

The fact that he isn't nice is not a real surprise is it? :rotfl: What I find interesting is the fact that she said there was more to him than meets the eye and to keep an eye on him before Book 4, when all we knew about him was that he wasn't nice.

So I don't think this means we can necessarily expect him to do something bad just based on her post-OOTP quote. It may just mean he plays an important part in the upcoming books or that he will continue to surprise us as readers (but remain a not very nice person).

Danluver182 July 22nd, 2004 3:46 pm

I don't think Voldie knows yet but he will probably find out. Snape may be one of the unfortunate ones in the next two books and die at the hands of voldemort. Either way I think he'll be important to the story.

escapist July 23rd, 2004 5:15 am

There are so many unanswered questions regarding this topic -- when Voldie was attached to Quirrel's head he'd have known about Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore. There's also the fact that as Scabbers, Wormtail would have known just about everything Ron knew about Snape and would no doubt tell Voldie everything.

So, if Voldie knows all this how is Snape spying?

Some people have suggested polyjuice potion and Snape posing as Crouch Jr but doesn't Crouch Jr need to be alive for Snape to be able to keep making the potion? (This was the reason given for Crouch Jr keeping Moody alive in the box in GOF) And Crouch Jr was ended with a Dementor's kiss wasn't he? (Unless I have completely altered my memory of the books that is...)

So, there's not much point to this post except to say I'm very confused about this and am waiting *very impatiently* for JKR to explain it all. I can't wait ;)

malfoyhater1 July 23rd, 2004 5:27 am

I think Voldemort knows snape is a spy cause he said he knew of some traders .

Trisha July 23rd, 2004 6:38 am

Maybe Snape is spying in some animal form that won't rouse suspicion -- perhaps a Crumple-Horned Snorkack?
He spent many years "spying" on the Marauders, so becoming an Animagus like they did is not out of the question. And his thought-control abilities would allow him to watch the proceedings without being observed.

Shauna July 23rd, 2004 7:03 am

There are certainly a lot of questions surrounding this topic. Let's just say LV does know Snape is a spy. Then how in the heck is Snape doing the spying?! The whole point of being a spy is so that the people you're spying on don't know. I suppose Snape could just glean info from the other DE's, but you'd think even they would know that Snape was a traitor when he didn't respond to LV's "call" via the Dark Mark.

Shauna

atherella July 23rd, 2004 4:25 pm

Going back to the point of LV being on the back of Quirrell's head....

Remember Harry's first Quidditch match, when Quirrell was jinxing his broomstick, and Snape was sitting nearby, performing some sort of counter curse. Quirrell DEFINITELY knew Snape was trying to save Harry, which in turn would mean that LV knows.

Here's the quote (Chapter 7 - SS/PS The Man with Two Faces)
Quote:

Harry - "But Snape tried to kill me!"

Quirrell "No, no, no. I tried to kill you. Your friend Miss Granger accidentally knocked me over as she rushed to set fire to Snape at that Quidditch match. She broke my eye contact with you. Another few seconds and I'd have got you off that broom. I'd have managed it before then if Snape hadn't been muttering a countercurse, trying to save you."
Considering LV was attached to Quirrell, how could LV NOT know that Snape is working with DD to protect Harry?

Hero_Of_Time July 23rd, 2004 10:56 pm

Lord Voldemort Knows All !

The Prophecy July 23rd, 2004 11:25 pm

The Quirrell thing is true.

Also, in OotP when Voldemort is counting his death eaters he says that there are two missing. One who has betrayed him and he shall be punished (Karkaroff) and one who has left his ranks forever and he of course shall be killed (Snape). Something like that anyway....

atherella July 24th, 2004 4:50 am

Do we even know for a FACT that Snape is spying for the order?

Bear with me a second. We've been led to believe that, but JKR never told us that outright via Dumbledore or anyone else in the order. All we have is Harry saying to Snape in anger that he is spying on LV, and Snape saying something along the lines of "that's right". He could just be saying that sarcastically to Harry, who he thinks meddles too much to begin with.

I guess I just have a hard time imagining Snape as a spy when there is NO possible way LV wouldn't know, due to being attached to Quirrell's head. Either that or he is supposed to be wayyyy under cover, and LV thinks Snape is there spying on DD.

I'm just thinking that Snape could very well be doing something else for the order. What? I have no idea, but I'm not sold on the idea that he's a spy.

escapist July 25th, 2004 9:41 am

I am definitely thinking you may be right atherella, all the evidence just destroys any notion of Snape being a spy, it just doesn't seem plausible from the information we know. Harry thinks he's a spy (hence we're fed this idea as truth) but how many times has Harry been wrong when it comes to Snape? I wonder what he could possibly be doing for the Order?

KryptonKitty July 25th, 2004 7:00 pm

I don't think Snape is spying on or for Voldemort. I mean has anyone acctually said what he was doing for the Order or did we just assume that he was back with Voldemort because of what Harry thinks? Maybe what DD asked him to do is not directly related to Voldemort.
Ooh this is going to bug me for days! Must re-read OotP...

atherella July 25th, 2004 11:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bel15
I don't think Snape is spying on or for Voldemort. I mean has anyone acctually said what he was doing for the Order or did we just assume that he was back with Voldemort because of what Harry thinks? Maybe what DD asked him to do is not directly related to Voldemort.
Ooh this is going to bug me for days! Must re-read OotP...

Right. Like I said on Page 5, it was NEVER explicity said that was what Snape would be doing, other than his sarcastic answer to Harry when Harry accused him of being the spy. We do know at one point Snape was a spy for the order, but there doesn't seem to be a way that he could do it now. I think that JKR may have let us all assume that Snape is still spying, but I imagine it'll turn out he'll be doing something else, and something BIG.

Thorofasgard13 July 26th, 2004 1:15 am

Double Agent?
 
I believe That Voldemort knows snape is a spy for dumbledore but, that snape is a double agent for his side and giving dumbledore mis-information.....On the other hand dumbledore uses snape as a spy on voldemort and tells him to give voldemort mis-information.
Altogether I believe that Snape is truly on dumbledore's side and because he is an Occlumens he can keep voldemort from seeing this in his mind. Dumbledore is so powerful that even without legilemency he could find out if people are truly loyal to him.

flipfloputz July 26th, 2004 2:03 am

I don't believe Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy. Maybe he thinks Snape is spying for him and giving him useful information, but is really wrong-footing him. If Voldemort does know, then why hasn't he killed him yet? Or, if Voldemort does know, why doesn't he force Snape with Veritaserum to tell him(Voldemort) what he's(Snape's) told the Order.

Snape could be playing double-agent, but I don't believe so. There has to be some reason he came to the light side before Voldemort's downfall that hasn't been explained yet.

Starlight July 26th, 2004 10:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by atherella
Right. Like I said on Page 5, it was NEVER explicity said that was what Snape would be doing, other than his sarcastic answer to Harry when Harry accused him of being the spy. We do know at one point Snape was a spy for the order, but there doesn't seem to be a way that he could do it now. I think that JKR may have let us all assume that Snape is still spying, but I imagine it'll turn out he'll be doing something else, and something BIG.

Meh, I've already posted my "Snape-is-a-decoy-spy-to-distract-V-from-whoever-the-real-spy-is" theory a couple of times in other threads and can't be bothered to go throught it all again, so instead I'll post a new idea;

Maybe he's actually sabotaging whatever work V and the DEs are doing? Though this could be the same as feeding them misinfomation. Hmm. Maybe he's recruiting DEs to rebel against V?

mrs_lupin July 26th, 2004 10:32 am

I thought for a long time that Snape had gone back to Voldemort undercover as a spy. However lately I'm doubting this.

First of all there's the fact that Voldemort can penetrate minds, he can tell when someone is lying or decieving him. I can't see Snape being powerful enough to fool him.

Also, one thing that's always bugged me. Remember in PS when Snape confronts Quirrell in the Forbidden Forest and goes to such great lengths to prevent him getting the stone. Well, Voldemort was in Quirrells head! If Quirrell knew about Snapes attempts to stop him getting the stone then so does Voldemort.

Snape is up to something though... I wonder what...

wavy July 26th, 2004 3:35 pm

[quote=mrs_lupin]
Quote:

First of all there's the fact that Voldemort can penetrate minds, he can tell when someone is lying or decieving him. I can't see Snape being powerful enough to fool him.
But Snape specifically says that it is possible to lie directly to Voldemort if you are an occlumens. He tells Harry at the beginning of the occlumency lessons.

Quote:

Also, one thing that's always bugged me. Remember in PS when Snape confronts Quirrell in the Forbidden Forest and goes to such great lengths to prevent him getting the stone. Well, Voldemort was in Quirrells head! If Quirrell knew about Snapes attempts to stop him getting the stone then so does Voldemort.
Yes, but Snape's lines to Quirrell are very vague - "decide which side you're on," etc. Snape could easily lie to Voldemort and tell him that he thought Quirrell was trying to get the PS for his own reasons and not to help V. After all, it does not appear that Quirell ever told Snape - hey you stupid DE, I'm trying to get it to our lord and master.

The only thing I think would be a real impediment is the fact that Snape saved Harry and Quirrell realized this. Not sure how Snape would get around that, but I assume he and DD had a plan or lie already concocted (maybe, "I had to do it b/c of the life debt") based on their conversation at the end of GOF.

Kimmetje July 26th, 2004 4:43 pm

What if Snape is a spy for VL and Snape fools him with his Occlumency as mentioned above?

That would make sense as Snape is still in the VL-league and in the Order-league. It could be that he is spying for both, that's what I think. It seems like Voldemort trusts his spy and so does Dumbledore (they think).

I must say this though; 'A Slytherin'll always save his own neck (as Snape is in Slytherin and Head)...'

RemusLupinFan July 26th, 2004 4:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starlight
Maybe he's actually sabotaging whatever work V and the DEs are doing? Though this could be the same as feeding them misinfomation. Hmm. Maybe he's recruiting DEs to rebel against V?

That's an interesting theory, and I think there might be some truth in it. Although I think this is a much more dangerous role to have than pretending to work for Voldemort.


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