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-   -   Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16339)

Merrymime October 4th, 2003 6:09 pm

Well, I think it's possible (and I say only possible) that Snape is a metamorphmagus or is using polyjuice potion to be someone else in order to spy. But, it would definately not be Crouch Jr. The Dementors are in league with Voldemort and it was a Dementor that killed Crouch Jr. Now wouldn't the Dementor tell Voldemort that he's dead?

Orcag October 4th, 2003 7:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bensoir
I dont see how Voldemort could know, Snape is still alive and if Voldemort did know then he'd be dead. Unless he is using Snape against the Order without him knowing. Not very probable though. Snape could be using the Polyjuice potion and turning himself into Crouch as he never died and can't exactly tell Voldemort he's alive.

I also think Harry will do Potions at NEWT as Dumbledore will want to keep Harry close to Snape to carry on with occulmancy etc.

I think that Snape could be turning into Crouch, and Voldemort knows that Snape isn't a Deatheater (book 4) he said he will kill him. But he wouldn't be able to kill Snape if Snape was pretending to be Crouch, if Snape was disguised as Crouch and they went with Voldemort to kill Snape, they wouldn't be able to find him, cause he would be Crouch.

Wow, I don't think I make any sense, lol :whistle:

Siriusly_Addicted October 4th, 2003 8:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doggy
It's possible That Voldemort believes that Snape is a double agent, yes but I would think he's a bit more suspicious than that.

Also, if (I said if) Snape spies by using polyjuice to impersonate for example Crouch Jr., he'd have been in that room anyway, so that isn't exactly clear proof. Besides; I don't think Snape knew about the dream being "real" so to speak; only he guessed correctly that Harry hadn't been practising occlumency enough. It's a Snape thing, trying to pin Harry down.

"Well you obviously need to practise more.."

I definitely think Snape is spying on Voldemort's movement as a whole (maybe through some of the Death Eaters), but not necessarily spying on Voldemort directly. Whatever his plan, I believe he is using his Occlumency/Legilimency skills to spy. Like someone said earlier in the thread, the polyjuice potion only lasts for an hour at a time. There's just too much chance of being caught like that. I also believe that Voldemort knows that Dumbledore told the Wizengamot about Snape's spying for him. Voldemort is not the type to trust an underling, even if there has been no overt act of betrayal (as there has been in Snape's case); he's not likely to give Snape a second chance, so I don't think Snape has been able to get physically close to Voldemort. Whatever he knows has been picked from other people's minds.

I agree with you that Snape's question to Harry about the man and the room was a guess and not based on any first-hand knowledge.

Alcina October 5th, 2003 8:48 am

I don't believe the Polyjuice theory for two reasons.

1) The Dark Lord said on the night of his rebirth that he was going to kill the DE who had left forever (and I'm sure he meant Snape). But a year later Snape's still alive. This leads me to suppose that something has happened since to convince the Dark Lord that Snape is in fact faithful.

2) The necessity to take the potion and wait for it to finish working (which seems to take a minute or so, to judge by CoS) would mean that he'd turn up late every time the DEs were summoned. After a while I think this would be noticed and the reason speculated upon.

Merrymime October 5th, 2003 2:05 pm

Are we sure?
 
Okay, maybe I'm just stupid and don't remember something critical in the books, but are we absolutely, positively sure without a doubt that Snape is spying?

Is there some quote in the book that says Snape is actually spying or are we just presuming that, because he used to be a death eater?

I thought he was just sent away in the end of GOF to do something that he knows, but we don't.

chop October 5th, 2003 4:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merrymime
Okay, maybe I'm just stupid and don't remember something critical in the books, but are we absolutely, positively sure without a doubt that Snape is spying?

Is there some quote in the book that says Snape is actually spying or are we just presuming that, because he used to be a death eater?

I thought he was just sent away in the end of GOF to do something that he knows, but we don't.

Well, maybe he is recruiting a flubberworm army, but I don't think so...

Siriusly_Addicted October 5th, 2003 4:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcina
I don't believe the Polyjuice theory for two reasons.

1) The Dark Lord said on the night of his rebirth that he was going to kill the DE who had left forever (and I'm sure he meant Snape). But a year later Snape's still alive. This leads me to suppose that something has happened since to convince the Dark Lord that Snape is in fact faithful.

2) The necessity to take the potion and wait for it to finish working (which seems to take a minute or so, to judge by CoS) would mean that he'd turn up late every time the DEs were summoned. After a while I think this would be noticed and the reason speculated upon.

I don't believe the Polyjuice theory either, and I agree completely with your second point. On thing about the first point, though: it may be that killing Snape (and I also thought he was the DE that Voldemort meant to kill) has been moved slightly down Voldemort's priority list. I think Voldemort may have been side-tracked by the Prophecy.

I'm thinking about that scene in Dumbledore's office after the tragic visit to the MoM. DD told Harry, "And so, since his (Voldemort's) return to his body, and particularly since your extraordinary escape from him last year, he has been determined to hear that prophecy in it's entirety." Voldemort's speech to the Death Eaters, in which he promised to kill one of those who was absent, happened before Harry got away. I suspect that maybe he decided hearing the Prophecy took priority over vengeance. With the Prophecy out of reach now, I think Snape should start looking over his shoulder.

I do see the flaw in this scenario, though. What's to stop LV from having one or more of his Death Eaters kill Snape while LV concentrates on the Prophecy, and why has he apparently not done so? I don't beleive for a minute that he would accept Snape's declaration of loyalty, but I don't know why he hasn't made any overt move against Snape either.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Merrymime
Okay, maybe I'm just stupid and don't remember something critical in the books, but are we absolutely, positively sure without a doubt that Snape is spying?

Is there some quote in the book that says Snape is actually spying or are we just presuming that, because he used to be a death eater?

I thought he was just sent away in the end of GOF to do something that he knows, but we don't.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chapter 26 - Seen and Unforseen, Page 591 (American)

"That is just as well, Potter," said Snape coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to this Death Eaters."

"No - that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him.

He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.

"Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again..."

I think that's where most people get the idea that he's spying. I'm not sure this is the whole story, though. I do think Snape is using his Occlumency/Legilimency skills to spy on Voldemort's organization, but there is probably more to it than that. Slightly OT, but I think this is part of the reason LV was so resentful of Harry in this book. Snape may be "spying" on a DE for information, but that won't be quite as good as Harry being able to "spy" on Voldemort directly. Once again, Snape is bested by a Potter and he doesn't like it at all.

BellatrixLeS October 5th, 2003 7:13 pm

We've seen through anecdotes in the book about former Death Eaters that once you join Voldemort, there's no turning back. If Voldy new that Snape was a spy, he would annihilate him, no questions asked.

Merrymime October 6th, 2003 1:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siriusly_Addicted
Chapter 26 - Seen and Unforseen, Page 591 (American)

"That is just as well, Potter," said Snape coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to this Death Eaters."

"No - that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him.

He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.

"Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again..."

I think that's where most people get the idea that he's spying. I'm not sure this is the whole story, though. I do think Snape is using his Occlumency/Legilimency skills to spy on Voldemort's organization, but there is probably more to it than that.

Thank you, Siriusly Addicted. I had forgotten that part, but I remember it now. It's a little vague. I agree in that I do think he probably is spying. But, I'm still not going to presume 100% that that's exactly what he's doing, though. I mean, it's so very risky, you know. I agree that Voldemort would kill Snape if he saw him and wouldn't believe Snape if he said he had come back to serve him. Also, if he's spying on a death eater, like Lucius or someone, he'd have to somehow make sure that that death eater didn't know he used to be a death eater. Because, obviously, he'd go report it to Voldemort immediately. Snape would also have to make sure that that death eater didn't tell Voldemort about him at all. Did that make sense?

So, if he's spying, then I would think he'd be concealing himself somehow from Voldemort and all the death eaters. Maybe he's a vampire and turning into a bat?! :D Ha ha! I laugh at the very thought, but perhaps. Or maybe he's just wearing an invisiblity cloak or something. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud really.

Prof.Aze October 6th, 2003 2:51 pm

For me it's really no...

I think that's why Dumbledore particularly chose Snape to be the one to spy on Voldemort since he is an Occlumens and a very great Legilimens also.

Snape is very helpful when facing Voldemort becuase of Voldemort tries to penetrate Snapes mind, Snape can close his mind directly.

sawyer October 6th, 2003 6:22 pm

I think Voldie knows: at the end of GoF he say that some traitors will return to him. I'm very worried about Snape's destiny! :evil:

sindatur October 6th, 2003 6:31 pm

I think Voldemort has got to know that Snape is no longer on his side, and that he is on Dumbledore's side.

PS/SS, Voldemort was in Quirrel's turban for much of the year, and Snape knew Quirrel was aiding Voldemort. At the end of GoF in the Graveyard scene, there was the three Voldemort mentioned, I believe Voldemort was speaking of Snape when he said the One who has left me forever...

Having said that, we do not know that Snape is currently spying on Voldemort or the Death Eaters, we only assume that is his current assignment.

Fortescue October 6th, 2003 8:31 pm

I think that's one of the unsolved mysteries of Book 5. We now have pretty solid evidence that Snape is spying, but we also know that Voldemort was in on the game. So what is he doing now? It's possible he's using polyjuice potion... But Voldemort must've known when Harry escaped that Dumbledore would find Crouch Jr. Is he playing a double agent? But if he's doing that, how do we know he's not playing a double double agent? Convincing both Dumbledore and Voldemort that he's on each's side? When will we discover his true colors? Those are probably the major questions that remain to be answered...

angelous October 9th, 2003 4:21 am

The Dark Lord Knows
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bensoir
I dont see how Voldemort could know, Snape is still alive and if Voldemort did know then he'd be dead. Unless he is using Snape against the Order without him knowing. Not very probable though. Snape could be using the Polyjuice potion and turning himself into Crouch as he never died and can't exactly tell Voldemort he's alive.

I also think Harry will do Potions at NEWT as Dumbledore will want to keep Harry close to Snape to carry on with occulmancy etc.



Bensoir
Voldermort is suppost to be all seeing and i really think he knows
Lucius and bella drop a hint in Beyond The Veil. They said THE DARK LORD KNOWS ALWAYS
So that just for me proves at least he might know
i think Snape is on the dark side thats why he isnt dead already
And as for Dumbledore keeping harry close to snape he said in THE LAST PROFECY that He should have tought him not snape
SO i thint the dark lord knows

Lil Red Head May 6th, 2004 12:33 am

Hi all. I was following the now-closed "Snape and Voldemort - what they know..." thread and I wanted to mention something on a comment I made.

The whole thread over there was about the conversation between Snape and Quirrell in the 1st book about not getting on Snape's bad side, deciding your loyalties, etc. and whether or not Voldemort, being on the back of Quirrell's head, now realized that Snape was truely working for the Good Guys.

Well, the idea had come into my head that perhaps Voldemort was out in the forest, chasing unicorns, when Quirrell and Snape had their chat, and therefore, Voldemort wasn't actually present and didn't hear what Snape said. And in regards to Voldemort's attachment to Quirrell, on page 291, US paperback, it says: "He is with me wherever I go," (said Quirrell quietly).

I thought this could imply that while Voldemort was always with Quirrell, Quirrell didn't always have Voldemort (a bodiless Voldemort could have been wandering around while Quirrell slept, for instance).

However, I have found evidence to dispell my theory (at least in part). Chapter 17 (The Man With Two Faces), on page 293 (US paperback) has Voldemort saying to Harry, "you saw faithful Quirrell drinking it (unicorn blood) for me in the forest." So it was Quirrell in the forest, and not Voldemort out without Quirrell.

So I'll just go with agreeing with other posters over there (MonicaG, Magi) that Snape is just a double agent and both DD and Voldy think he's spying for their side. Of course, only one can be right. :eyebrows:

Nys May 6th, 2004 1:24 am

I think that Snape may still be a spy for the Order. Voldermort must still think that he's loyal to him, otherwise I'm pretty sure Snape would be dead by now. Who's to say he's one of the ones that Voldermort is talking about in the Graveyard, but that's already discussed in another thread.....

astaire May 6th, 2004 3:56 am

Well, I've always thought that Snape was the one of the 3 missing death eaters. There's Moody/Crouch, Karkaroff, and Snape. Voldie's just bidding his time until he kills Snape. He's known from the beginning and has a sinister little plan for him. Of course, Snape might not be spying at all. Maybe he lied about it to Harry. After all, would you be truthful about sensitive matter like that with a boy who has a direct telephone line with Lord Voldemort? I wouldn't.
Still, I go with my first theory. Anyway, I doubt polyjuice potion is a factor---especially turning into Crouch. Voldemort is well connected enough to know that he died. Malfoy has Fudge, who was present at the kiss, in his pocket. Remember?

Nys May 6th, 2004 4:44 am

I've found the link to the discussion on who's the missing DeathEater. www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=866560

wavy May 7th, 2004 12:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlupin_loverx
I suppose Voldemort could know, but he doesn't seem to be doing anything about it. Well, so far. I have a gut feeling a lot is going to happen with Snape in the next two books, and that we may learn a lot more about him. (At least I hope so.)

But also, Snape is a master at Legilimency and Occlumency. He even says, "The Dark Lord, for instance almost always knows when someone is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection." (page 531, hardback American edition) He's obviously talking about when we was a Death Eater and spying for the Order, but he could easily also be talking about what he's having to do now. If Voldie's groupies are trying to find out if Snape has betrayed him he could be tricking them with Occlumency to think that nothing's up. Just a thought.

Yeah - I think this passage is definitely a clue that Snape is currently lying directly to Voldie's face. I think Voldie, as he said, believed Snape had left him, but Snape and DD came up with a plan (the double-double agent thing) and Snape went back in, lied about why he hadn't been back sooner, took his medicine and now Voldie believes he is a spy for the DEs when really he is a spy for the Order.

So, maybe Snape is under suspicion, but I don't think Voldie knows (unless, as suggested on another thread, Voldie saw something through Harry when using legillimency on him).

Magda Quadle May 7th, 2004 4:45 am

I don't think Voldemort knows. I think he was refering to Snape as the afraid one and Karkaroff as the one who had left him forever. After all Crouch would have told him that Karkaroff ratted on all of his fellow death eaters in order to get out of Azkaban. Doing so would be considered leaving forever. Snape could just be considered afraid since he works with Dumbledore and isn't available to freely apperate from Hogwarts when called.


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