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-   -   Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16339)

Luna27 May 7th, 2004 5:05 am

I think Voldermort knows and is just playing with Snape. From what we've seen of Voldemort from the end of GoF...he has little respect and zero trust for his Death Eaters. How can he trust anyone when he's so ruthless himself? It's hard to explain...but I think Voldermort operates with a presumption that his DE are worthless. If they prove otherwise, great. But they're kind of like mindless things he can use to see his will done as far as Voldermort is concerned. With few exceptions, they all betrayed him the last time around, but he didn't kill them. He saw some value to them for various reasons...positions some of them held at the Ministry etc.

So I think it's kind of the same with Snape. He's at Hogwarts...I don't think any other professor has any contact with Voldemort or DE. I think, regardless of how he feels about Snape, Voldie would see value in that and try to think of a way to exploit that asset. He may be feeding information to Snape. When you think about it, having the Order guard the prophecy didn't set him back much. He just used one of them to try and take the prophecy and realized that either he or Harry had to remove it. Voldemort may have thought that telling Snape about his plan to take the prophecy wouldn't be 'high profile information' in relation to some of his other plans. We'll see.

I just find it hard to believe, that even if Voldie didn't know that Snape had turned spy before, that Kreacher hasn't told him he is feeding info to the Order (via Narcissa). Even if Kreacher couldn't reveal this info when Sirius was alive (which, unless he was given a direct order not to tell, he could tell), he can definitely reveal it now that he is dead. I think Snape and his role will be a major plotline in the next 2 books.

Godrics_Heiress May 7th, 2004 4:23 pm

Do we know that Snape is a spy? One thing that I can safely speculate is that Voldemort must know that Snape has gone to the good side or otherwise he wouldn't be teaching at Hogwarts during Dumbledore's reign as Headmaster, unless he is a spy for Voldemort and we have yet to find out about this.

ravenclaw02 May 7th, 2004 4:43 pm

The thing is, if Voldemort knew, Snape's spying would be pretty useless... after all, they're not going to give good info to someone they know is a spy. LV is not known for being merciful, so I don't think that, if he knew Snape was a spy, he'd just let him go. Plus, Snape and Malfoy (LV's right hand man) are still great buddies, apparently. That wouldn't happen if LV knew about Snape's spying.
I think that the point of introducing Occlumency was to show us how Snape is an effective spy. LV is a skilled Legilmens, so Snape's Occlumency is the only way in which he can effectively spy.
In short, no, I don't think LV knows that Snape is a spy - yet. The quote from Dumbledore about Snape putting himself at great personal risk is very telling though, and I do think that the spying will get Snape in trouble (killed?) in the beginning.

Luna27 May 7th, 2004 5:06 pm

Ravenclaw02...I'm not saying that Voldie is merciful...but he does use people. And it is very possible that Malfoy may know that Snape is double dealing...but it's not necessary for him to know (if you remember from GoF...Voldie wasn't too happy with Malfoy or any of his Death Eaters). I'm saying that the odds of Voldemort accepting anyone back into his service with full trust is like, non-existent. He doesn't trust his DE's...his only weapon against them is fear of him...but he can use them regardless. He seems to be pretty perceptive...he knows that Wormatail only came to find him because he had no other choice. But that didn't matter to Voldie because he could use Wormtail to return to his body.

I'm saying that Voldie knows what Snape is up to...we don't know what his plans are. Getting the prophecy may have been a luxury to him...something he wanted but didn't need in the end. I think he fully intends to exploit the fact that Snape is at Hogwarts. To do that, he would need to feed info to Snape...but it wouldn't be the most important info. Above all else, he would need Dumbledore to believe that he is believing Snape's act. From what was being reported in the Daily Prophet, Voldie knew that the MoM didn't believe he was back. He also knew that Fudge was trying to discredit Dumbledore. So he knew that DD couldn't just have the prophecy removed (which would actually take Harry to do)...the best they could do is guard it.

Having the Order guard the prophecy didn't amount to much...like I said before. Voldie probably thought he could just kill any guard (as he tried to do with Arthur) and get out of the MoM with the prophecy...which would then make the dead guard look involved in some way. That would keep the heat off of Voldie. In the end, Voldie defeated himself by thinking he could just use Harry to get the prophecy. That had nothing to do with information he was passing along to Snape.

So, I don't think there is anyway Voldie doesn't know what Snape is up to. To him, the risk of having Snape spy on him is manageable...they just pass along less important info to Snape. But the risk of letting DD and company in on his smaller plans is far outweighed by the benefit of having Snape at Hogwarts. He may pull the polyjuice trick and have Malfoy or another DE pose as Snape while Snape is imprisoned somewhere...I don't know how it will be done, but he will use the situation to his advantage. Hopefully Snape manages to survive...probably with the reluctant help of Harry.:)

arabella1975 May 7th, 2004 5:17 pm

I don't see how Voldemort could not know. Draco's father was a DE and Draco is in Snape's house. Also, Ron's rat (Pettigrew) was at Hogwarts for three years before returning to Voldemort. Now that I think about it, Snape would be very lucky to pull out of this alive.

heirofslytherin_dm May 10th, 2004 1:18 am

As was pointed out Snape is a superb Legillimens, he could very well pull off the lie. BUT, then again, Moody had to have had some inclination, because of the "there are some spots that don't come off" (not sure if that is exact). He could have been talking as the auror Moody....or he could be talking about betraying Voldy. And it's not like he could've done anything about Snape himself....being under Dumbledore's nose and all. It's only right to just let it go and then report to his boss later. Not that he got the chance to or anything.

iamrade4ever May 10th, 2004 6:47 am

in the books, have we saw malfoy and snape togather at all?

koli May 11th, 2004 12:01 pm

I think Voldie knows that Snape is a spy, or at least he hasn't been loyal all this time. Voldie: said he had one faithful servant up at hogwarts in GOF and we know it wasn't Snape. And also in book one Snape was on to Quirrel and his plot, Snape confronted him many times, not knowing Voldemort was only on the other side of his head. Quirrel and Voldemort had to have conversations about Snape. Wonder what the next 2 books will bring...

Doggy May 11th, 2004 12:42 pm

I'm pretty sure that Voldemort knows that Snape has been a spy once. After all, it has been mentioned in at least two trials (in Karkaroff's and the one where Dumbledore vouched for him). And even if the information in those two trials are confidental, I'm pretty sure that someone like Lucius Malfoy wouldn't mind telling Voldemort about it, gaining some credit from him.

If Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy now, well I wouldn't think so. Something tells me that Snape wouldn't be alive if that was the case. However, Snape doesn't have to be spying in person, there are probably lots of ways he could hide himself. Unless he somehow managed to convince Voldemort that he has "redeemed", but I don't think Voldemort would get fooled twice.

Discordia May 11th, 2004 1:26 pm

Yeah, Voldemort's not stupid and he knows what's going on with his DE's. If Snape was at that ceremony we'd have known about it. Also I don't see how he could have been in two places at once. Voldemort kind of has to know by now becasue Snape's clever but not that clever.

hermy_weasley2 May 11th, 2004 2:43 pm

I think he's suspicious (sp?), but I'm not sure he knows for sure. Snape's probably not on his favorite's list right now if he ever was, but Voldemort might think he has to trust him because he's one more follower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamrade4ever
in the books, have we saw malfoy and snape togather at all?

Yes, all the time, in class, at the dueling club in CoS, and Harry doesn't see everything. Draco is the model Slytherin, so he will get his fair share of attention from the Slytherin Head of House.

aRcHiMoNdE May 11th, 2004 2:47 pm

I think one of the big twist's in the story will be that Voldemort know's Snape is a spy, and Harry ends up saving Snape's life.

Luna27 May 11th, 2004 2:57 pm

I don't think the Malfoys are aware of Voldie's supicions of Snape at the moment. I do believe that Luicius thought Snape just pulled the same scam he did by saying he never helped the Dark Lord voluntarily. So I think Malfoy would still be chumy chumy with Snape because he just thinks he made the clever choice by saying he turned spy for DD. And again, it would be a huge red flag if Malfoy suddenly didn't trust Snape anymore. So he either does know and is stll pretending to be his buddy, or Voldie hasn't told him because he doesn't see any reason for anyone to know his plans for Snape at the moment. He might think that one of his DEs would screw it up by saying something to Snape that lets him know Voldie isn't too happy with him. And I stress again, that the only reason Snape is still alive is Voldie needs him...I'm sure he will be tortured mercilessly after Voldie's need for him is diminished. Probably while Malfoy is using polyjuice potion to look like Snape and infiltrating Hogwarts.

hermy_weasley2 May 11th, 2004 3:11 pm

Snape left the Dark side before Voldemort's first fall from power though didn't he?

Maybe Snape spies on the Death Eaters without them knowing he's there. Or maybe someone else who left the Dark side without anyone knowing is feeding him information from Voldemort's inner-circle.

Tane May 11th, 2004 3:18 pm

If Snape could close his mind directly to Voldemort then why would The Dark Lord risk enlisting Snape as a Death Eater. It would be very risky for Voldemort to trust someone who closed there mind every time Voldemort wanted to know something. If Voldemort can't get through Snape's thoughts then in theory neither can Dumbledore putting Snape in control of who gets what information or if he just keeps it to himself.

wavy May 11th, 2004 4:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tane
If Snape could close his mind directly to Voldemort then why would The Dark Lord risk enlisting Snape as a Death Eater. It would be very risky for Voldemort to trust someone who closed there mind every time Voldemort wanted to know something. If Voldemort can't get through Snape's thoughts then in theory neither can Dumbledore putting Snape in control of who gets what information or if he just keeps it to himself.

As I read his l/o speech, Voldie wouldn't be able to detect that Snape had closed his mind to him. Snape would just be able to block out any memories, thoughts and emotions that would contradict whatever lie he was telling at the time. It seemed to me from the description more like an exercise in extreme self control than magic, per se. As for doing it with DD, I would presume Snape could do it with anyone he chose, although its unclear if DD would be better at detecting it than Voldie. Theorectically DD is more powerful than Voldie, no?

darklord_grindelwald May 11th, 2004 9:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavy
Theorectically DD is more powerful than Voldie, no?

Not neccessarily. Even Dumbledore states that Voldemort is more powerful then him, esp. now when he has Harry's blood.

I think LV suspects Snape, but he's not sure of it. He didn't send Snape to the DoM to get the prophecy, that was the task of his most turstworthy servants. Snape was not one of them, nor Pettigrew.

Tane May 11th, 2004 11:08 pm

Though saying that Snape could not really leave Hogwarts without probably being asked questions on his where about if needed at the school, so Voldemort might not have wanted him to go to the MoM for security reasons.

Though I do think Voldemort has his suspicions of Snape and I can't help but think that even though Harry dislikes Snape, he might feel some regret if he was to die protecting him. I mean could you imagine someone who always appears to hate you and yet ends up dieing to save your life. I think that will be the only way Harry will forgive Snape fully in the end, if Snape puts his life at risk for him.

Saying that Snape's smart enough to whimper his way out of any sticky situation and probably has a very good excuse as to why Voldemort should really trust him. No doubt Snape will prove his loyalty to Voldemort; I just hope it is not at the expense of Dumbledore that he gains his redemption from the Dark Lord.

persian85033 May 13th, 2004 12:19 am

Lupin said that Snape is a superb Occlumens, and only those good at Occlumency can conceal a lie from the Dark Lord. That's probably why Snape is still alive.

wavy May 13th, 2004 3:38 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by persian85033
Lupin said that Snape is a superb Occlumens, and only those good at Occlumency can conceal a lie from the Dark Lord. That's probably why Snape is still alive.

Which makes me wonder - how would Lupin know? Just second hand from DD or some other way?


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