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Old May 9th, 2014, 11:31 pm
sailorlum  Female.gif sailorlum is offline
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Join Date: 08th February 2010
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Re: Lily Evans Potter: Character Analysis v.3

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Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
I had forgot about Lupin's version of Jame's hexing. I do feel that was more due to being a toerag than picking on people because of their blood status or taking it to the level that it went to with Snape. Schools often draw crowds around fights so I don't feel that is indicative of much. *shrug*
A person doesn't have to have a racist reason to pick on someone for it to be bullying, nor do they have to take it to the level it went with Snape for it to be bullying, since there is a spectrum of bullying, IMO. James seems to have been one of the most powerful students in the school, so for most students he'd hex, especially if Sirius is joining him in the hexing, I think there'd be a power imbalance, and anytime there's a power imbalance between the attacker and attackee, and it's not self defense, I'd say it's crossed the line to bullying behavior.

Regarding the crowd around the fight, I think you may have missed my point with that. My point was that only some of the students watching were entertained by James/seemed to like James, while some others seemed to fear/not like James so much, thus I don't think he was quite as popular, in terms of being liked, as Lupin and Snape have claimed, and thus I think it totally plausible that he could do some general bullying and yet still be popular to the level/extent he was in canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I see. Impedimenta, which is a brief jinx, as I seem to recall from when the trio practised it prior to the third task. Slows someone down or incapacitates them for a few seconds. I don't see how that could be synonymous with tying someone up.
To be fair it does say in the text: "Snape was trying to get up, but the jinx was still operating on him; he was struggling, as though bound by invisible ropes." and based upon all the conversation that went on between the start of the jinx and when it began to wore off, I'd say it lasted about a minute (and I think the time can vary to a certain extent, depending on how much power is put behind the spell, although it's still pretty temporary). So, it would be a pretty temporary tying up and without rope burn, so I'd say incapacitated or temporarily incapacitated, myself, rather than tied up, but I see where they were getting "tied up" from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I fail to see how "deserving" Lily comes into it, as she was not a prize to be won. She was a person, with agency and with feelings of her own, and she chose who she would be with, based on her feelings and values, not on who she thought was more "deserving" of a Lily-trophy.
I totally agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I think if she had known, I think she would have known that it was going both ways and that neither of them was blameless.
At the very least, James could explain that Snape kept attacking him, if Lily didn't witness it. I think Lily would try and get James to stop the cycle of revenge (and only do self defense in the moment as needed), though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
They used levicorpus. Snape's own spell.
Ah, yes, or perhaps that is what UselessCharmMaster was referring to (it's a bit like tying up, like hanging someone by their ankle, and it requires the counter-jinx). Perhaps I was thinking Impedimenta because I've heard other people use the argument that it was like Snape being tied up, before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice
I fail to see how "deserving" Lily comes into it, as she was not a prize to be won. She was a person, with agency and with feelings of her own, and she chose who she would be with, based on her feelings and values, not on who she thought was more "deserving" of a Lily-trophy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
I think that is an over-examination. While I'm all for Lily being able to be free to choose whom to befriend, there are certainly a case to be made that James (or Snape) didn't deserve to have a friend like Lily. It's not about her being a prize, rather it is about recognizing that SHE deserves better from THEM. Does that make any sense?
I think it's best to word it as "Lily deserved better treatment" if it's about Lily deserving better treatment, then, rather than saying "James/Snape didn't deserve her" because the latter phrase is treating Lily as the object being deserved, which is objectifying wording, regardless of the intent, IMO. I get what you mean now, but I think it's better to avoid the unfortunate implications by wording it in a way that doesn't make Lily the object being deserved and instead makes the treatment the object being deserved.

Saying "James (or Snape) didn't deserve to have a friend like Lily" also avoids the objectification of Lily, and is a much better way to phrase it than "James/Snape didn't deserve Lily", IMO, but it comes off as being more about James or Snape, than Lily, so talking about what Lily deserved would be best if the focus is meant to be on what Lily deserved, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I see, then it's about what Lily deserved, not Lily as a prize for the guy who "deserved" her. (And there is a difference -it's the difference between saying "I deserve someone who respects me" and "I deserve person X") IMO, Lily felt she deserved someone who respected her and whom she could trust. From canon, she certainly wanted someone who was on the same side of the war as her as a basic requirement. Not everything, but the most basic requirement.
And I think that once James had grown up a bit, he and Lily might actually have had a lot in common. Both were supportive of people who were underdogs - James, standing by Lupin, when the majority of the wizarding world would despise him because of his condition; Lily remaining friends with Snape, even after he began a descent towards crime. Both gave people a chance, despite unsavoury reputations -again, Lily with Snape; James, befriending Sirius, despite the Black family's reputation for extreme bigotry. Both were firmly against Voldemort, and willing to fight for what was right. And when James had toned down his behaviour, they may have had a similar sense of humour - Slughorn recalls that Lily was "cheeky".
I agree, there is a difference between saying "I deserve someone who respects me" and "I deserve person X", though, and with the rest of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Yes, and I want to make it plain that James and Snape put themselves in the running for Lily's affections and therefor were subject to her evaluations of them. That doesn't mean, however, that James or Snape weren't or shouldn't be, perfectly acceptable as they were to someone else with differing standards. But they chose Lily long before any possiblility of romantic interest on her part. Therefor she had every right to dissect their actions and find them coming up short. Much like Ginny chose Harry long before he had any romantic interest in her. If Ginny wanted Harry she would have had to display certain characteristics. That these characteristics came naturally to her was a bonus --- and made them a good fit --- but that doesn't mean she didn't have to meet certain criteria on Harry's part. It's worth noting, too, that many people evaluate their criteria after the fact. Lily did alot of this. Certainly Snape met alot of her childhood criteria -- like being a good cofidant regarding Petunia. But as she changed, her prorities changed, but Snape didn't change in accordance with those priorities even though she wished he had.
I'd say Snape changed, too, he was just changing in ways that were moving away from Lily's priorities, after coming to Hogwarts and getting in with the future DE crowd. I saw some positive character growth from Snape after making friends with Lily and before coming to Hogwarts, but he seemed to backslide and then go further back than he started, in many ways, and I'm sure Lily wished that hadn't happened. I agree that Lily wished he'd changed for the better rather than for the worse (or at least wished that he'd not changed for the worse).


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I prefer Severus/Lily in an AU, in a world where Snape makes better choices before it's too late, and they stay together forever. I support canon, I just want this parallel AU with Lily not losing her childhood friend and being hurt by that, and with Snape not screwing up his most important relationship and just generally wrecking his life, and with the friendship "upgrade" that certainly could have happened had Snape dialed down the awful choicemaking.
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