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Old October 17th, 2014, 2:46 pm
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Re: Feminism: Definitions and Opinions

Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
*agrees with Wab*

Just in the past few years, everyone online has had to hear that taking a photo and putting it anywhere online never goes away. If a person doesn't want his pics potentially available to the public, then that person should never post them.
That's the general consensus. But in the case of Brooks Newmark, the general consensus was that the tabloid was in the wrong for deceiving him, not that he was in the wrong for sending nude pics to a stranger. I'm wondering why the double standard. There's sympathy for a man who sends nude photos to a stranger and gets stung, no sympathy for women who take nude photos for personal use, for a partner they know, and then have them stolen.

No one has condemned Jennifer Lawrence beyond pointing out the risk she took putting them online.
When the hacker/s get caught their name/s will be all over the media and if successfully prosecuted, they'll go to prison as the last person that did this sort of thing.
And the victim-blaming excuse won't be used as a "mitigating factor"? As in the case of the guy at the Lincoln Memorial who got away with taking photos up women's skirts because they were in public?

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
I agree. There was an incident in the Illinois US Senate race in 2004, where Jack Ryan walked away from the race under political pressure from his own (Republican) party. The issue was release of some details of previously sealed divorce documents, which contained information about his attempts at getting his wife to visit and participate in sex clubs, specifically to have sex in front of strangers who enjoyed watching. As this evolved through the media (who was responsible for getting the judge to unseal a small part of the divorce settlement for the public good), after the initial surprise wore off, it was stunning how much of the public commentary centered on defending Jack Ryan, and making derogatory comments about his wife (Jerri Ryan) and trying to somehow place blame on her. Incidentally, both had requested sealing the documents to protect their then 9-year-old son; neither appealed the ruling on the unsealing, giving rise to speculation on what else was in the mostly redacted document.
I hadn't heard about that. How interesting - she didn't want to go to these sex clubs, have sex in front of strangers, and the public decided she was the one at fault? Nice display of misogyny there. If she had gone, the same hypocrites would surely be calling her the s-word. Was this politician very popular with voters?

Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
I think in situations like these we need to look at the larger context and to me there are two aspects to this. One of them is that, like others have mentioned, we live in a celeb obsessed culture where people feel entitled to know every intimate detail about someone just because they saw her/him in a movie once or twice.
I think entitlement is a big part of this problem. Both in the case of the hackers and the tabloid - they felt entitled to intrude on the privacy of someone else. And I do not think that being in the public eye -whether as a politician or as a celebrity - entitles anyone to see that famous person naked. It's not simply a consequence of being in the public eye; it's a gross invasion of privacy. (Admittedly, in the case of male politicians, it's about disgracing them, sabotaging their career, rather than wanting to see their nude pics for gratification)

The other aspect is that there's obviously a "market" out there for pictures of naked women, in this case celebrities (I don't think any male celebrity got his phone hacked into). I think that's where the gendered aspect of it comes in. It's not just the hackers who are to blame but also everyone who looked at these pics and thought they had a right to do so.
That's a point - there were no male celebrities whose pics were stolen. Why is there no "market" for these photos? People who are attracted to men also have sex drives, after all.

I agree that those who were looking at the pictures are also to blame. Which is why I found it highly entertaining when I read about the supposed video of Emma Watson that was doing the rounds. Apparently, when the user clicked on the link, it downloaded a virus onto their computer. Well deserved, I think, if it was true.

It also brings to mind the hypocrites who looked at the photos and then, to make themselves feel better, wanted to donate to a men's charity. I have a lot of respect for that charity for turning down that offer, as it seems these idiots wanted to turn it into a kind of ice-bucket thing - look at the photos, then donate to a men's charity. As if it wasn't a woman whose privacy they were violating.

Another thing is that after Emma Watson delivered her UN speech on gender equality she was subjected to intense internet hatred and people threatened to release naked pictures of her.
Sad. It seems that a young woman speaking about feminism infuriates the inadequate and the entitled?

So I think that by just focusing on who took which risks we're missing the bigger picture. It wouldn't matter what risks women took if there weren't people out there ready to take advantage of the situation and if we didn't live in a culture which made it (somewhat) okay to do so.
I agree. Focusing on the risks the woman takes is also a double-edged sword, because women who do take precautions, and who dare to mention that they feel the need to take precautions, not just on-line but in real-life, are met with the "not all men" whine. I think this one is more in real-life than on-line.
But it can also be digital - suppose a woman refuses to send her partner nude pics/videos because she doesn't want him to post them online in revenge if they split up? Does she get met with the "Not all men" rubbish? And if she does, and he posts them, she should have been more careful. Which is it?
I don't think one can have it both ways. If you're going to say that women should take precautions, "should have" done x, y and z, then how can one also turn around and say "Not all men" when women do take precautions? When they're wary? Tell a woman she "should have taken precautions", but when a woman does take precautions and he feels offended, out comes the "Not all men" line.

Originally Posted by Sereena View Post
I agree, I don't think either gender is immune to invasions of privacy. What I'm saying is that this invasion can be done for different purposes and that these purposes are gendered. In the case of Jennifer Lawrence and other celebrities the only purpose was to find nude pictures of them and objectify them. It wasn't about a political scandal or about ruining their reputations. It was about objectification and this is something that women are more often victims of than men. That's not to say that this means men suffer less than women from privacy violations, just that it is done for different reasons depending on the gender of the victim (and possibly other factors).
I agree. The reasons are different - a scandal-seeking tabloid going after a married Conservative politician who willing sent his photos to a stranger versus hackers who stole actresses' photos for the sole purpose of objectifying them. Both are wrong, but only one treats the victim as an object. Only one stole. In only one case did the victim themselves freely send the photos to a stranger, and yet, this is the only one who gets sympathy?

Originally Posted by Midnightsfire View Post
A lot of men don't care about being objectified. Just the opposite at times seeing that their ummm sex-appeal is less an object and more an icon.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Could you clarify? My reading of it is that men own their sexuality whereas women don't. Or is it that male sexuality is a good thing, whereas female sexuality is shamed? Or are you saying something else entirely?


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Last edited by FurryDice; October 17th, 2014 at 2:59 pm.
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