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Old March 30th, 2014, 10:26 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
Question him Under Veritaserum or use an oath or Legilimency? Three things I can think of right now. I think Dumbledore should really not have let Snape off without knowing where Snape came from, who he was working for, what he had to gain from eavesdropping on him and last but not the least what he was going to do with the information he had overheard. This IMO is the very least Dumbledore should have done, simply because it was war. In wartime everything is different, everyone suspicious and spying upon the leader of the opposition to Voldemort should IMO result in a checking. To believe Snape and send him away seems to me the height of naive and it really shows nothing except that war with Voldemort was not being fought by Dumbledore. But by leading a resistence he was placing those who worked for him at tremendous risk and places their deaths on his negligence rather than the casualty of war.
Both Legilimency and Veritaserum can be countered. If the WW had a fool-proof way of getting the truth out of someone, they'd have no problems putting the right person in prison. There was nothing Dumbledore could do to prove that Snape was with Voldemort. He could have tried to torture the truth out of Snape but even that is not reliable. Even in the real world, competent spies don't get caught by failing lie detector tests or being intimidated in some way. They get put under heavy surveillance and are caught in the act at a later date.

I disagree. I'm afraid that mere confidence in himself won't do at a time like that. He needed to be certain, to know.
Except he couldn't know at the time. He had to weigh the odds and make a decision. This was not the first or last decision that Dumbledore made without being completely sure. Very rarely do situations present themselves where you have perfect information in order to make the optimal choice.

The Order of the Phoenix was a voluntary organization. Dumbledore did not force anyone to join and would not stop anyone from leaving. Every member would have known the risks when they signed up. If they had a problem with the way Dumbledore was dealing with things, they were quite free to leave or set up their own resistance organization.

Also the fact that the Order of Phoenix was under so much pressure was not because Dumbledore was making mistakes or Voldemort was outwitting him. The Order had a spy in their midst, were outnumbered and had been fighting a long war.

We don't know if that is true, that Snape was at 20 years able to fool Dumbledore. but the point I made in my previous posts was that its immaterial whether Snape was an Occlumens with the capacity to fool Dumbledore or not. The moment he was caught eavesdropping he should have been locked up and investigated one way up and another way down and if Snape was going to be let off, it must be with the knowledge that what Snape knew and would reveal to anyone would not hurt the Order or its members and if such information could harm certain Order members, they could be more than adequately protected.
Snape would have already been very good given that he was supposed to fool Dumbledore and it wasn't very long after that that he became a double agent. Snape's cover was not going to be blown by Dumbledore.

Dumbledore says he came to spy in the first place, but that to his good fortune Snape was caught only a little way into the Prophecy and was thrown out.
I believe he says Snape was eavesdropping, which I read as an opportunistic act.

I agree. No one could predict Trelawney was going to make a Prophecy. Not even Dumbledore who says pretty much the same thing in OOTP. And I also agree Snape was there on Voldemort's orders (he says to Bellatrix in HBP - Spinner's End chapter) to seek a job. So, yes, Snape may have come to approach Dumbledore for a job; but he was also very clearly caught eavesdropping. If he came for a job only, he would have first approached Aberforth about meeting with Dumbledore or sent an owl to him and confirmed his meeting, in which case, he would have been waiting patiently for his turn.

Snape did something else. We don't know if he had owled the Headmaster for meeting, but we do know he was caught eavesdropping and he was thrown out. So he was either thrown our despite his arranging a meeting with Dumbledore because of his poor conduct or he was thrown out because he simply stalked Dumbledore and then eavesdropped on him.

Whatever it was, it was a suspicious action, which in the times they lived should have been investigated inside out.
Snape was tasked by Voldemort to get a job at Hogwarts in order to spy on Dumbledore. Snape needed to get that job or face Voldemort's displeasure. So Snape gets curious and decides to listen in on Dumbledore's interview, see if he can pick up some pointers. While this behavior was suspicious and poor, it was understandable. Dumbledore would certainly have found it believable. Dumbledore would have had a much bigger cause for concern if Snape had been caught trying to listen in on an obvious secret meeting.

I highly doubt this was the first time, someone was caught trying to overhear his conversations. He's probably dealt with his share of nosy people. Dumbledore was also the guy who told Harry that curiosity was not a sin.

I believe it was and Dumbledore sent Snape away knowing full well he would go to Voldemort with it and that Voldemort would act on it, thereby starting the fulfilment of the Prophecy. In order to protect the rest of the Prophecy from getting into Voldemort's hands Dumbledore gave Trelawney a job, when in the first place he was not intending to do so.
Ok, lets assume that this is what happened. What is Dumbledore's plan here? Somehow "let" Voldemort get to the chosen boy?

It also happens when the state is in a civil war of sorts IMO. The WW was under attack for over 11 years (IIRC) continuously by Voldemort and his death eaters; it was at that time Snape was caught.
Yes it happens but it is not a good thing when everyone gets treated by suspicion and paranoia. You're not telling me that Wizarding England should have devolved into, for example, a Soviet state where people are worried about what they speak and what they do because your calls are tapped, activities monitored and any random person on the street could be a KGB agent who could get you indefinitely imprisoned.

I think Dumbledore thought Voldemort may be interested. I think by that time Dumbledore was desperate and if he could make Voldemort believe that there was a person who could bring his downfall and keep him occupied with that for some time, much as he did with the Elder Wand in DH, giving Harry time to search Horcruxes, he would.

Not to say they are the perfect of plans, none of them are, but Dumbledore went with what he had IMO.
I think Voldemort was quite capable of running multiple plots at the same time. He was hardly going to be personally looking for the child. He'd have his death eaters bring him information that he needed.

The Elder Wand hunt didn't really benefit Harry. Voldemort was never going to personally search for Harry. He had his death eaters, the Ministry and those Snatchers doing all the grunt work. He'd also set it up in such a way that he could appear almost immediately if Harry was caught.

Which was why Dumbledore needed to protect the boy with everything he had. I think he failed in that task. If Snape had not begged for Lily's life and if Voldemort had not agreed to spare her; and if Lily had thrown Voldemort's order to step aside back on his face or stepped aside, Harry would have died IMO.
The key thing here is that Dumbledore did not think the boy was of *vital* importance. The child being killed did not affect Dumbledore's plan in any way. It was not strategically important for him. Assuming he told James and Lily the prophecy, the rest was not his concern. He told them that Fidelius Charm was their best hope and offered to be Secret Keeper. Whether they decided to follow his advice was not his concern anymore. The Potters could have decided to use some other method to protect themselves other than the Fidelius Charm if they wanted and it would not have been Dumbledore's business.

Additionally, I don't think James and Lily would have taken it well at all if they learnt that Dumbledore deliberately set their child up as a target. If this is what happened or even partially true, then the Potters were entirely validated in picking someone else as Secret Keeper.

I think he gave the second Prophecy some importance, enough to impress Harry, that it saved his life in Malfoy Manor much later.
He was very nonchalant over the whole thing. All the people who died, starting from Bertha Jorkins to Remus Lupin, can be directly tied to Harry's decision to let Peter live, which resulted in Voldemort's return. A tiny unconscious merciful impulse from Peter doesn't compare to the many many people who died because of Voldemort's return.

Dumbledore did not care about prophecies at all. He never took them into consideration when making plans which was what his impassioned speech to Harry was all about.

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