Breastfeeding

[katsumi]

Thank you for sharing that, Pegasus. I confess, I had never even heard of LaLeche until joining this discussion.
Is it only an American group or are they worldwide? I'm in Canada--perhaps that's why I didn't hear of it.

I remember my good friend Ashlee having difficulties breastfeeding with her first born. She was young, recently married, and not flush for money. Luckily medicare paid for her hospital bills, but to rent the breast pump from the hospital would have cost her something like $60/day. It was an insane amount.
She was very concerned that she would not be able to afford to breast feed with the difficulties she was having, but very much wanted to do so. I don't believe she was provided with any information on LaLeche (but I will ask her to make sure).

The Public Health Nurse will make house calls to all new mothers and offer advice on feeding and what not, but beyond that I'm not sure how much assistance is readily available here.

[anabel]

Originally Posted by ravenfeather

Would you like another anecdote? When my twins were 9 months old, I had to make a two hour trip, alone, on a plane. Now, lots of people know that babies' ears don't "pop" as easily as adults' ears do. The best way to get their ears to stay comfortable during a flight is to keep that suck reflex going. My only problem was that the seats were too narrow to tandem nurse, so I had to nurse one for ten or fifteen minutes, switch to the other baby, and so on and so forth. This meant that at any given moment, I had exactly one fussy baby. At the end of the flight, I was near exhaustion and tears. An older man (I'll not call him a gentleman) came up to me as he was disembarking and told me that I had "horrible children". The woman behind him pursed her lips and told me I had some nerve breastfeeding on the airplane. I'll let you do the maths here....

People like that make me so angry! (angry, not militant!). I'm amazed that not one person who saw you struggling alone with two unhappy babies offered to help. There is no such thing as a "horrible" baby, although I think that man deserves the adjective and plenty more! Sometimes people's lack of compassion shocks me. But then the world seems to be roughly divided into those who have kids or are planning kids, and those who have no kids and no understanding of what it is like to have them (with a sub group of those who raised their kids so long ago they've forgotten what it was like and imagine that their own kids always fed by the clock and did what they were told - a surprising number of grandmothers fall into this catagory!).

Originally Posted by GenevieveS

I remember once being at the top of the bleachers at a high school volleyball tournament (my husband was the coach), feeding my firstborn with a blanket draped over my shoulder and his head. One of the players' fathers sat down next to me and talked to me for 3-4 minutes before my son stirred a little and he realized what I was doing. He apologized for "disturbing me" and scurried off, feeling, I think, a little embarrassed.

One time I was breastfeeding my daughter discreetly at a dinner, someone started taking photos of our group. There was nothing on show, so it didn't bother me, but he apologised profusely afterwards when he finally realised what we were doing. Mostly people don't even notice, unless the baby has very bad "table manners".

[Murtlap]

Originally Posted by Amaryllis

Re: breastfeeding laws. I read earlier where someone said that a law had been put into effect in Scotland to allow public breastfeeding. Anyone know of other places where such laws have been put into effect?

Personally, I didn't realize it was necessary to put laws into place to ensure mothers could breastfeed in public. I wonder if there are stipulations, i.e. wearing modest clothing, keeping body covered, etc.

I've just been looking at the legislation which covers Scotland, and there are no stipulations regarding breastfeeding, in fact it quotes the law in Minnesota which states that a mother may breastfeed anywhere she and her child are entitled to be, irrespective of whether the nipple shows during feeding or not, and Scotland seems to have based their legislation on similar grounds. Any businesses asking a mother to either stop feeding or to move somewhere private can be fined. It also mentions the reasoning behind the legislation; Scotland aimed to have 50% of mothers breastfeeding by 2005, and realised that in order to achieve this, breastfeeding has to be normalised in society. I wouldn't think that they have yet achieved that 50%, but there certainly has been an increase.

[anabel]

Originally Posted by katsumi

ravenfeather -- I couldn't help but feel the tone of your last post was very callous, particularly with your "boo hoo, I couldn't breastfeed" comment.

It is wonderful that you had all of those resources at your disposal to help you out. But do you suppose that every woman out there will have access to the same resources? Do not all of those trips to the doctor cost money? Does not consulting a specialist cost money? I am not implying that women should be cheap with their childcare, but sometimes exhausting all of the medical resources available is simply not possible for monetary reasons.

You are also forgetting, or are completely discounting, the emotional strain that difficulties in breastfeeding can pose to a mother. You are passing judgements in a very hard way and I don't really think you are in any place to do so.
It's great that you were able to call in the cavalry so that you could trudge through and accomplish breastfeeding after two months of failure, but not everyone will have the option (or the cavalry). And many mothers would be panicking by that time, wanting their babies to be fed.

As far as I can see they were fed. And I am totally in awe of ravenfeather for what she achieved in this situation. Being a married mum with one baby is demanding enough. Being a single mum of twins is ... frankly terrifying! I'm not saying everyone could have achieved this, but I wouldn't start preaching about emotional strain to a woman who has been through what ravenfeather described!

Originally Posted by Murtlap

I've just been looking at the legislation which covers Scotland, and there are no stipulations regarding breastfeeding, in fact it quotes the law in Minnesota which states that a mother may breastfeed anywhere she and her child are entitled to be, irrespective of whether the nipple shows during feeding or not, and Scotland seems to have based their legislation on similar grounds. Any businesses asking a mother to either stop feeding or to move somewhere private can be fined. It also mentions the reasoning behind the legislation; Scotland aimed to have 50% of mothers breastfeeding by 2005, and realised that in order to achieve this, breastfeeding has to be normalised in society. I wouldn't think that they have yet achieved that 50%, but there certainly has been an increase.

It would certainly be interesting to see how society's attitude affects the level of breastfeeding. Here in Norway, very nearly every mum starts off breastfeeding and it's a common sight in shopping centres, cafes and other places where mums and babies are to be found. The official recommendation is 6 months of only breast milk, followed by a gradual introduction of different solid foods and a gradual reduction in breastfeeding. 31% of kids are still being breastfed by their first birthday, 21% at 15 months, 11% at 18 months, and 4% at two years. (link to source, but it's in Norwegian so I wouldn't bother if I were you!) I think the numbers are slightly lower in towns and higher in the country. Similarly, the more education a mother has, the longer she is likely to breastfeed. Nobody ever challenged me for breastfeeding, and the only comments I received were positive ones. I can quite understand that mothers would wean their kids sooner if they were harassed when feeding in public, but really, after the first year it is no longer necessary to feed in public - you can give the kid an apple and a hug instead and wait until you get home to breastfeed.

[Dedalus Diggle]

Originally Posted by katsumi

Thank you for sharing that, Pegasus. I confess, I had never even heard of LaLeche until joining this discussion.
Is it only an American group or are they worldwide? I'm in Canada--perhaps that's why I didn't hear of it..

Actually I think it got started in Canada, Quebec specifically. Maybe that's why you haven't heard of it - I hear there has been tension between Quebec and the rest of Canada.

Originally Posted by katsumi

I remember my good friend Ashlee having difficulties breastfeeding with her first born. She was young, recently married, and not flush for money. Luckily medicare paid for her hospital bills, but to rent the breast pump from the hospital would have cost her something like $60/day. It was an insane amount.

That is insane. We were quoted something like that for rental, and the thing pulled so strong that it hurt a lot (so I'm told - I didn't try it out )

That is why I posted about the personal size portable breast pumps. No bigger for the whole kit than HBP and it cost us only about $20.00 to BUY and lasted 7 years. Especially for working mothers to keep the milk flowing they are so helpful. They are quiet enough for the other kids to sleep through, too.

[katsumi]

Ashlee (my friend), certainly hadn't heard of anything like that at the time (which was 2 years ago). Those manuel breast pumps didn't pump nearly enough milk to be worth her while, and the rentable one was ridiculously expensive.
I'm sure she would have loved to have known about the personal sized one.
Thanks for sharing the info! I will pass it along.

[anabel]

Originally Posted by katsumi

Ashlee (my friend), certainly hadn't heard of anything like that at the time (which was 2 years ago). Those manuel breast pumps didn't pump nearly enough milk to be worth her while, and the rentable one was ridiculously expensive.
I'm sure she would have loved to have known about the personal sized one.
Thanks for sharing the info! I will pass it along.

See, this is an example of what needs to be done to help more babies get started breastfeeding. The help and advice available is inadequate, and the equipment that could help is too expensive. Statistically, breastfed kids are healthier and cost less in state healthcare (or insurance covered healthcare) so it pays (the state and insurance companies) to invest in a good start. (Yes, I know there are plenty of healthy bottlefed babies, but statistically breast is best.) When the best help available is a stranger quoting a textbook on the end of a phone line, it's no wonder some people struggle and give up. I'm not blaming the mother. The support network is lacking.

[katsumi]

That is definitely a good point. And I think that a lot of mothers would be more inclined to trudge ahead and attempt to breastfeed longer if they felt that they had support and not merely judgement.
I'm forcibly reminded of that old addage, "you attract more flies with honey than vinegar" (or something to that effect).
Given how emotional and frustrating a time it can be for so many mothers out there, it would really help for them to know that there is help out there that won't cost them a fortune and won't cost them their dignity.

[Kirsten]

Originally Posted by Amaryllis

Re: breastfeeding laws. I read earlier where someone said that a law had been put into effect in Scotland to allow public breastfeeding. Anyone know of other places where such laws have been put into effect?

Personally, I didn't realize it was necessary to put laws into place to ensure mothers could breastfeed in public. I wonder if there are stipulations, i.e. wearing modest clothing, keeping body covered, etc.

There has never been a law in the UK preventing breastfeeding, entirely or in certain circumstances. However, there have been issues where women have been breastfeeding in a public place, such as a restaurant, park bench etc, and have been asked to stop. It's now an offence in Scotland to prevent a woman breastfeeding. It's never been illegal to do it, but now it's illegal to stop someone doing it.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Rele...04/11/18172546 is a press release about it.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Rele...04/11/18172546 is the actual bill.

[ravenfeather]

Originally Posted by katsumi

I said that you weren't in a place to pass judgements.

Judgement is, in effect, opinion and I think my opinion is just as valid as yours is.

For a woman who is desperate to do the best for her baby when the baby won't take to the breast, it can be frustrating, heart-breaking, and confusing.

You imply that I don't know this, m'dear and I assure you that's not the case. I never said it was easy or thrilling or imminently enjoyable. It was frustrating, heartbreaking, and confusing, as well as disapointing, but the thing is, I was able to overcome that. If I can overcome these obstacles in my situation, I feel pretty strongly that anyone can, barring valid medical problems.

Originally Posted by Amaryllis

This doesn't make you any better than them or them any lower than you.

Look at this from another perspective for a moment: if breastfeeding is best and someone chooses, that is, actively chooses, not to breastfeed, isn't that less than best and, therefore, not as good?

Originally Posted by gualsa

I presume you had all the time in the world sitting there persevering with the breast feeding?

Well.... ahem, clearly you've not ever had twins. I assure you, I didn't have "all the time in the world" and I find it amusing that you'd phrase it that way.

I said it before; parenthood is about sacrifice and proactivity. If calling me judgemental or holier-than-thou or militant or insensitive or whatever other names folks would like to call me makes them feel better, well, more power to them. It doesn't change the fact that Western culture needs to make a huge leap backward and embrace proper parenting of their infants. Moms everywhere can make any excuses they like, but babies weren't meant to live on the milk of cows or goats or on extract of soybeans. We're doing a disservice to our children here, breeding allergies, contributing to childhood obesity, creating deformities of the palate, and putting bonding and learning at risk. It's such a comparitively easy change to make, I just can't comprehend why this is such a tough issue.

[piky]

Originally Posted by TENSHI

Anyway, I have a question for those who said that there are laws now which allow to breastfeed in public. Does that mean that before you are not allow to do it, because there was a law against it or because there was no law which allowed it?

Does this make sense?

Anyway, it seems very odd to me to set up an own law because of this.

I don't think that breastfeeding in public places has ever been actually outlawed here in the U.S. (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please), but lately many states have been passing resolutions, ammendments and laws which support a mother's right to feed her child wherever she needs to.

Probably 95% of all people in the U.S. have been around breastfeeding moms in a public venue and never even realize it -- and that's the way it should be.

I, too, have never actually seen a breatfeeding mom who is so militantly blatant about it that she purposefully causes a scene, but I'm sure they're out there. It's very sad because that kind of thing just inflames general public opinion further away from something that should not be a political issue to begin with.

[Amaryllis]

Originally Posted by ravenfeather

Look at this from another perspective for a moment: if breastfeeding is best and someone chooses, that is, actively chooses, not to breastfeed, isn't that less than best and, therefore, not as good?

Simpy put: No. For further reference, see SageThyme's post:

SageThyme:    

---

Please everyone take a big BREATH! Please keep personal attacks of other's choices out of this discussion. This topic is good for discussion and shouldn't be closed down. Please keep the peace in here. Thanks ps - I don't think anyone here wants to be remembered by me as being my first warning issued on my first day.

Originally Posted by piky

I don't think that breastfeeding in public places has ever been actually outlawed here in the U.S. (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please), but lately many states have been passing resolutions, ammendments and laws which support a mother's right to feed her child wherever she needs to.

As far as I know, you're right. Something that's interesting is how they've changed the laws a bit, as mentioned before. For instance, some laws used to have a disclosure that mothers had to cover up or be modest, and some of those have been changed to encourage mothers to breastfeed comfortably. It's good to know that we have rights if someone in a restaurant or elsewhere tries to tell us to stop breastfeeding .

[PhoenixUK]

Originally Posted by Amaryllis

It's good to know that we have rights if someone in a restaurant or elsewhere tries to tell us to stop breastfeeding .

If the restaurant owner or an employee of the restaurant asks you to stop, you'd still have to. The laws to be able to do x apply in a public place such as the street, in a privately owned place, such as a restaurant, shop or shopping centre, it is up the the discretion of management.

Basically, it's illegal to do anything unlawful anywhere, but it's okay to prohibit lawful activities in a private place at your discretion. For instance, brothels in the UK are legal, but I'd most probably object if someone tried to run one in my apartment .

[jedily]

Originally Posted by PhoenixUK

If the restaurant owner or an employee of the restaurant asks you to stop, you'd still have to. The laws to be able to do x apply in a public place such as the street, in a privately owned place, such as a restaurant, shop or shopping centre, it is up the the discretion of management.

Basically, it's illegal to do anything unlawful anywhere, but it's okay to prohibit lawful activities in a private place at your discretion. For instance, brothels in the UK are legal, but I'd most probably object if someone tried to run one in my apartment .

I'm not sure how the laws are worded there in the UK, but in many states in the US the law on breastfeeding in public is worded thusly:

"The Legislature hereby declares that breast-feeding a baby constitutes a basic act of nurturing to which every baby has a right and which should be encouraged in the interests of maternal and child health. In furtherance of this right, a mother may breast-feed her baby in any location where the mother is otherwise authorized to be. Breast-feeding shall not constitute a violation of any provision of Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes."

Title 21 is, I believe, the indecent exposure law.

[PhoenixUK]

Originally Posted by jedily

I'm not sure how the laws are worded there in the UK, but in many states in the US the law on breastfeeding in public is worded thusly:

"The Legislature hereby declares that breast-feeding a baby constitutes a basic act of nurturing to which every baby has a right and which should be encouraged in the interests of maternal and child health. In furtherance of this right, a mother may breast-feed her baby in any location where the mother is otherwise authorized to be. Breast-feeding shall not constitute a violation of any provision of Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes."

Title 21 is, I believe, the indecent exposure law.

I think you'll find, though, that no-one has the right to be in a shop etc - most shops, at least in the UK, have a sign in the window that says "right of admission reserved". So the law doesn't provide any protection except in public places such as libraries.

From BBC News A woman who says she was stopped by the police after breastfeeding her baby in public is demanding an apology. Margaret Boyle-White fed her daughter, Niamh, on a bench while shopping in Watton High Street in Norfolk. Minutes later as she walked home to Carbrooke, she was stopped by police who said there had been a complaint and asked her not to do it again. Norfolk Police confirmed that an officer had spoken to Mrs Boyle-White in relation to an incident. Mrs Boyle-White, 34, said she had been very shocked and embarrassed by the police approach. "I was very upset because I felt I had done nothing wrong. "I said to the officers after a couple of minutes of a conversation 'I have done nothing wrong - the government and midwives are all encouraging breast feeding'. "He said I hadn't committed a crime, but asked me to refrain from doing it in public and he suggested places where I could breast feed her - in a restaurant or cafe - as opposed to a street bench," she said. Health visitor Margaret Holtz said there was something wrong with a society which discouraged a mother from feeding her baby on a bench on a sunny day. "The message we are giving as health professionals is to be proud as a woman for doing this - to feed your baby as nature intended. "It is difficult for them to then go out in the community and feel compromised for doing it." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/norfolk/4457490.stm

As I said, currently the situation in the UK is that no-one has the right to breast feed and that they can be asked to stop, whether in a public or a private place. I suspect that it's rarely used, though. I highly doubt a law protecting breast feeding would get passed in the UK - suggestions have lead to Conservative politicians condemning it as the "nanny state taken to the extreme", and to be honest, I think there's far more important issues to pass legislation against.

[Murtlap]

Originally Posted by PhoenixUK

As I said, currently the situation in the UK is that no-one has the right to breast feed and that they can be asked to stop, whether in a public or a private place. I suspect that it's rarely used, though. I highly doubt a law protecting breast feeding would get passed in the UK - suggestions have lead to Conservative politicians condemning it as the "nanny state taken to the extreme", and to be honest, I think there's far more important issues to pass legislation against.

It's incorrect to say no-one in the UK has the right to breastfeed. Scotland is a part of the UK, and here women do have the legally enshrined right to breastfeed (see Kirsten's post above for links). I read recently that England are thinking of introducing similar rights for women south of the border. Also, the law in Scotland does not just cover public places but also licensed premises which children would otherwise legally be allowed in.

[katsumi]

Originally posted by ravenfeather.
If I can overcome these obstacles in my situation, I feel pretty strongly that anyone can, barring valid medical problems.

But how are you qualified to make this kind of statement? I did it, therefore other people can and should?
Guess what: I straightened my own teeth by tying them together with dental floss. Instead of getting braces I straightened my own teeth (my hand to God). Does that mean I think other people could do the same? Are people who have crooked teeth somehow beneath me because they didn't take the initiative to straighten their own teeth when I have done so myself?

I applaud you--I honestly do--on having persevered in such difficult circumstances. You stuck to your guns and it paid off. You should be very proud. You're an inspiration to us all (no sarcasm intended).

But please remember that not all people are the same. There are a million reasons why a woman could fail where you were able to succeed. I am merely asking that you show a bit more compassion and try to see the other side.
It would be nice if women could be more together on this, instead of judging each other. It's a very personal and touchy subject, yes. But we could encourage each other and help each other and be supportive, rather than judging and belittling each other. (ie. "boo hoo! I can't breastfeed!")

[GenevieveS]

Originally Posted by katsumi

to rent the breast pump from the hospital would have cost her something like $60/day.

Originally Posted by Dedalus Diggle

That is insane. We were quoted something like that for rental, and the thing pulled so strong that it hurt a lot (so I'm told - I didn't try it out )

That is why I posted about the personal size portable breast pumps. No bigger for the whole kit than HBP and it cost us only about $20.00 to BUY and lasted 7 years. Especially for working mothers to keep the milk flowing they are so helpful. They are quiet enough for the other kids to sleep through, too.

This is, unfortunately, another case where ignorance can hurt the new mother's chances.

The hospital grade breast pump is strong and powerful and expensive to rent. However, the suction level can be adjusted, so it doesn't have to hurt. (I know, I used one for 6 months.) They are expensive to rent, and my insurance told me that it would not be covered and that my appointment with a lactation consultant would not be covered. When I told the lactation nurses that I was going to have to pay for it, they looked at each other, and then insisted I let them try to bill it through insurance. They said that frequently there's nothing in the insurance company's customer service guidelines about lactation help and that the customer service people are trained to say anything they don't know about isn't covered. Sure enough, the insurance paid for both the appointment and the pump rental. Turned out that all we really need was the pediatrician to say that my baby would be better off on breast milk, and that I needed this help to get it going...and what pediatrician wouldn't say that!

The smaller ones you can purchase are indeed excellent for keeping nursing going, especially for working moms. However, most of them don't have strong enough suction to really get milk going at the beginning. For someone like your friend, she may have only needed the hospital pump for a week, but she probably would have needed to get her milk to come in quickly enough to help her get the baby going. I had one of the cheaper small one with my first, which I used for a few days right after I came home from the hospital. I remember taking to a lactation consultation what I had pumped with it, and they were amazed that I had managed to get that much milk with that pump this early in the process. (Milk production was never an issue of mine. )

Again, I was lucky. I had lactation nurses who knew the system and knew how to play it, so my insurance would cover the costs. I feel no guilt about knowing that they probably did "play the system," since I firmly believe that this should have been a covered expense. Just as good prenatal care ultimately lowers the medical expenses of a newborn, sometimes spending that amount up front ultimately lowers the medical expenses of a baby. I also was prepared to pay for it myself, which I'm sure wasn't an option for your friend, making it more scary to say "Let's do it, and try to get it paid for."

[junika3]

How much would the average breast pump cost? (to BUY)?

[GenevieveS]

Originally Posted by junika3

How much would the average breast pump cost? (to BUY)?

It really depends on how much power you need, whether you want to be able to pump both breasts at the same time, how fast you want it to go, and whether you want an electric or manual pump.

I had an electric double-breast one intended for "occasional use," which currently costs about $120.

There are more powerful electric double-breast ones, intended for "frequent use" (meaning the full-time working mom who has to pump more than she nurses), which are upwards of $300.

There are manual ones that cost in the range of $30-$50.

There is at least one single-breast electric out there for about $45.

(Prices as of today on Amazon. Someone might be able to find a sale price that is better.)

In my experience, the hospital grade pump was much faster and more efficient than my $120 personal model. I could empty both breasts at the same time in about 10-12 minutes on the hospital grade pump; that took at least 30 minutes on the personal model.

Edit to add: Before buying a pump, a mom who plans to work while nursing should check with her employer on what's already available at work. I worked part-time when I only had 1 child, and my employer had a pumping room available with a hospital grade pump in it. (I just had to bring my own tubes and stuff, which you can usually get in the hospital.) A coworker went out bought the $300 pump, not realizing she didn't have to bring one to the office!