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Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms



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  #1  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 5:50 am
buygraphpaper  Female.gif buygraphpaper is offline
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Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

Discussion for Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms by Nadezhda.


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  #2  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 7:26 am
Illythia  Female.gif Illythia is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

Dumbledore did NOT know about the switch. That's sort of the point of the entire third book. The Mugglecasters got mixed up.


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Old May 22nd, 2006, 7:36 am
buygraphpaper  Female.gif buygraphpaper is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

This is true; however, the topic of the editorial is explained by its title. Let's have this thread discuss that, 'kay?


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  #4  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 7:45 am
NeuroComp  Undisclosed.gif NeuroComp is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

heh i can't believe people missed that from PoA...
interesting point about how hagrid or Dumbledore knew the whereabouts
of the "POTTER HOUSE" in godric's Hollow(isn't the hollow a village not the house).

We must first figure out what happens to the secret when the keeper dies. I believe JKR answer on her website, but i can't rememebr the answer.

ALSO remember in OoP, the keeper need NOT DIRECTLY speak the "SECRET" to those whom he would like to pass the secret onto. The scene i'm refering to
is when harry first meets the black house. Moody gave a paper written by AD to harry to see the black house. Apparently a written note is just good enough.

So the question as written from the article how did RH and AD know the secret. The simplest but dumbest answer i guess would be that PP forged sirius' hand writing, and thus notes were passed indirectly to RH and AD(i wouold also assume remus was given a note) An alternative answer: there is a JKR flaw by reading this article(preferably not).

Finally one should point out perhaps a "Slytherin-like trait" in Sirius.
Why exactly did sirius/james/lily want to bluff LV? What was sirius afraid of?
i think he mentioned that LV would for surely track him down. But surely since sirius,james and remus are like brothers they could all hide in the same house.

I wonder what happens if you performed 2 fidelius charms such that the secret keepers are the people whom the other charm is being performed on.


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Old May 22nd, 2006, 8:44 am
hyogoetophile  Male.gif hyogoetophile is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

If Dumbledore didn't know who the true Secret-Keeper was, then why did he so easily believe Harry and Hermione and send them back in time to save Sirius? If he was wrong then he was sending H&H to help save a supposedly powerful wizard who not only had recently become the first person to break out of Azakaban, but also wanted to murder Harry.

Also, didn't Dumbledore obviously lie? Peter was the Secret-Keeper, but Dumbledore flat out said that he gave evidence that Sirius was the Secret-Keeper. Did he completely bamboozle the Ministry, or was there somehow more than one Secret-Keeper and/or Fidelius Charm or something?



Last edited by hyogoetophile; May 22nd, 2006 at 9:06 am.
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  #6  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 9:53 am
wannagoballwime  Male.gif wannagoballwime is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

i have a very vague, oh lets say a Luna theory.
Dumbledore told Harry that the only reason he sent him to live with Aunt Petunia, was because of the blood bond b/w the 2 sisters which would shield harry from danger as long as he stayed in that place
now if Sirius had been freed of charges he would have obviously taken legal possesion of Harry as his rightful guardian, but if he would be in Azkaban, Harry would be able to go to the Dursleys, without any problems.
so maybe, maybe , maybe Dumbledore knew about the switch and .... lied
I know this theory is insane, but maybe dumbledore was punishing Sirius in this way because of what Sirius had done to Snape when he was 16, attempt to murder is pretty serious.
This would explain the glitch about AB knowing about the location of the house still, i would prefer if this "theory" of mine was wrong and maybe JkR just made a mistake.
there was also an editorial suggesting that the Fidelius Charm broke when the Potters were destroyed along with their house, so Hagrid could find it. that seems more plausible.


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Old May 22nd, 2006, 10:11 am
Bowtruckle  Undisclosed.gif Bowtruckle is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

Sorry Wannagoballwime but that would have lead to alot of animosity between Dumbledore and Sirius, wouldn't it.


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Old May 22nd, 2006, 10:27 am
GinnysHex  Female.gif GinnysHex is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

I think the thing i like the most about this editorial is the fact that it essentially about the use of the Fidelius Charm, which in my opionion is not discussed enough. I think that it is possible that Lily's wand was used to cast the charm or was part of the casting of the charm.

I have my own thoughts on the charm and it's use mainly in the Potters case and I have written as a piece on this that I hope will be posted.

Here's hoping


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  #9  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 1:01 pm
Hedin  Male.gif Hedin is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

Quote:
Originally Posted by buygraphpaper
This is true; however, the topic of the editorial is explained by its title. Let's have this thread discuss that, 'kay?
Actually the title is a little misleading since there wasn't really much discussion why Lily's wand had to be good for charms, the article is really more like did Lily or Dumbledore cast the FC?

As for Dumbledore knowing where the Potter's house was it is certainly feasible that he would have known where they lived before the FC was placed. If he wasn't told where it was by the Secret Keeper he could walk by it all day every day and not actually see the house but he would know where it was. As for Hagrid he might have known where the Potters lived as well and when a place gets practically blown up I think that would negate any effect the FC might have.


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  #10  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 2:51 pm
altap altap is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

I cannot believe that Dumbledore knew about Peter-Sirius switch and yet did nothing to protect Sirius from Azkaban, it's just so out of character. So, clearly Dumbledore cannot be the one to have cast the Fidelius Charm (unless you can perform the charm without knowing all the participants, which is highly unlikely). As for Lily, the main question is whether or not a person can perform such a charm on oneself (i.e., to protect oneself). I believe we already established that it is most likely impossible to be one's own secret keeper (otherwise that's how Voldemort would protect his horcruxes). Also, not clear whether the caster and the secret-keeper are one and the same person or two different people or either. Unlike with the Unbreakable Vow, we do not really know the mechanics of the Fidelius Charm. I was under the impression that Dumbledore was both the secret-keeper for the Order and also the one who performed the charm (although, come to think of it, I am not sure why I think it, will have to look for evidence later). If it is true that the secret keeper performs the charm, then we know who it was - Peter.


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  #11  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 3:26 pm
inkling7  Female.gif inkling7 is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

I think the charm is on the people not the place. Didn't Flitwick say at one time that you could look into a place but not see the people inside if they had the charm on them. So if Lily placed the charm herself when the Potter's died the charm would have been lifted so Harry could be seen and rescued. However if nobody could see them they must have been confined to their house as being invisible and going out could cause some problems and scare a lot muggles if their presence was detected and they could be seen by anyone.
If the charm was one the house how would you explain to the neighbours where it had disappeared to - there one day and not the next? Also the muggles would have been quite startled to hear and explosion nearby but see nothing actually blowing up.
This means the charm would be better off on the people concerned.


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  #12  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 3:28 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

I"ve always thought Lily must have cast the Charm because of what Ollivander said. I'm surprised the Mugglecasters entertained the possibility that Dumbledore had done it; it's obvious in Prisoner that Dumbledore doesn't know the truth about the animagi Marauders or who the Secret-Keeper was.

Hyogoetophile, I think Dumbledore believed Harry and Hermione because he takes young people seriously and knows that these two aren't liars. If he had known all along that Sirius wasn't the S-K, then he wouldn't have given them the T-T so they could go back and save him because that would raise the question of why he hadn't intervened to save him before.

We don't know exactly what Dumbledore's evidence was. It's clear that everyone thought Sirius was the S-K (see Fudge in PoA). Dumbledore probably said something like "The last time I saw James, he told me that they were using Sirius Black as their S-K." Since Sirius later seems to have no resentment whatsoever towards Dumbledore, I doubt that Dumbledore testified to anything that he hadn't been told.

I don't think Sirius was ever the S-K. I think he suggested the switch before the Charm was performed.

Wannagoballwime, I don't think Dumbledore arranged for an innocent Sirius to be Azkabanned. Sirius wasn't kin to Harry. I'm a godmother several times over and am close to the families involved, but I'm not legally or genetically a member of those families. Godparents get custody of children if the parents have named them so in a will or other legal document. Without that, custody usually stays in the family.


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  #13  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 3:49 pm
focusf1 focusf1 is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

If Sirius knew where to return after he could not find Peter at his hideyhole that night, then it follows he must have known the secret. So, as the secret keeper . Peter must have told Sirius in person or by note. The latter being my choice.

Since Dumbledore knew where to send Hagrid, Sirius must have told Dumbledore by note and then gone into hiding himself. This way, even Dumbledore would have been under the illusion that Sirius was the secret keeper and not Peter. AND would be able to show the note to Hagrid.

JKR on her site said that if a secret keeper dies- the secret dies with them.

IF Dumbledore is really dead - that means no new Order recruits as the charm will still work.

If Dumbledore is not dead - and the charm is still working then that will go to prove that Harry SHOULD not be able to see Godric's Holllow.

The other option is the charm is broken on the death of any one of the objects/persons protected.



Last edited by focusf1; May 22nd, 2006 at 3:54 pm.
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  #14  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 4:15 pm
yappa1  Undisclosed.gif yappa1 is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

Is it possible that Dumbledore did not know where the Potters were staying. If he knew, he would have gone to help. He might have known that Hagrid knew the location but had to wait for Hagrid to return before sending him for Harry. If he was told the location he would know the secret keeper was. Voldemort probably told Pettigrew not to tell Dumbledore the location. This chain of thought explains more of how things happewned and why.


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  #15  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 4:58 pm
Scotty89  Male.gif Scotty89 is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

what i would like to know is what evidence did dumbledore give the ministry that sirius was their secret-keeper, because from the books the only possible evidence is his word and nothing to back it up.

also why would he have to give evidence that he (sirius) was the secret-keeper when sirius himself said that he went to azkaban [i]without[i] a trial, there is no reason to give evidence against a person who has already been convicted of the murder.

and by telling the ministry that they had performed the fidelius charm, would that not raise their suspicions about why they had done so, would they not ask how they knew voldemort was after them, would they not want to know how and who told dumbledore about this. and as you said dumbledore would not tell and a down right lie.

good editorial


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  #16  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 5:44 pm
veelavouivre veelavouivre is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

What about:

Sirius was present when the Fidelius Charm was done, since he said they switched secret keeper "at the last minute". This would mean that at the moment of performing it, Sirius comes in with Wormatail and asks that he be the secret keeper instead of him, then charm is done by Lily. This would mean that Sirius knows the secret but can't divulgue it.
Everybody else thinks Sirius is secret keeper.
Then, Sirius can have said only this to DD: they are hiding at Godric's Hollow, the village. But can't tell more about the exact address. Dumbledore still thinks that Sirius is secret keeper, especially with this last info, and doesn't ask for more details, maybe because he is busy and just needs to know everything is in order, not the details of how it went.
When Voldemort comes to kill Lily and James, Sirius wanted to ckeck on Wormtail, who wasn't there. He immediately goes to Godric's Hollow, but too late. Meanwhile, Dumbledore knows by his spies that Voldemort is on the move and that it is too late. He sends Hagrid to the village to retrieve Harry. Hagrid and Sirius meet, since Sirius gives him his motorbike. At this time, muggles begin to "swarm around", so the secret is no more a secret, but that would explain why and Sirius and Hagrid are in the village at this time, and why Dumbledore knows where to send Hagrid, without knowing really the secret, and without having Wormtail writing any note.
Dumbledore doesn't have to tell lies, or sacrifice anybody. And I don't see Wormtail give any info to Dumbledore. And nobody needs to fake someone else's handwriting. This explanation looks easier.

Do we know how long it takes to Wormtail to go to Voldemort after he is made secret keeper? I would think no more than a fortnight. Almost as soon as he is made secret keeper, I see him go right away to tell everything about it to his real master. Maybe not right away, the time Sirius and him get out of Godric's Hollow, find a place to hide for Wormtail, and Sirius goes elsewhere to do work or something (or to give some info to DD), and leaves Wormtail alone. Since when he comes back to check on him, there is nobody home.

That would not let Wormtail any time to give any info to Dumbledore or anybody else.


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  #17  
Old May 22nd, 2006, 6:46 pm
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

The title of this editorial is misleading, as another poster pointed out, because the only discussion of Lily's wand refers to her casting the Fidelius Charm. There is a lot more information on Lily that most likely will come out in book 7. JK Rowling has dropped so many hints about Lily's abilities that she has to be giving us something big. We know her wand was good for Charms, that she was excellent in Potions class, and an excellent student in general.

I always felt that it was clear from book 3 that the Potters, either James or Lily, it doesn't really matter which, cast the charm. And it was also clear from book 3 that Dumbledore didn't know who the real secret keeper was.

Whether or not he knew where the Potters were hiding, that is a lot harder to figure out. Since only the secret keeper can tell the hiding place, and Dumbledore didn't know who the correct secret keeper was, we would have to assume that he didn't know the hiding place. After all, we never hear of him going there.


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Old May 22nd, 2006, 9:48 pm
saddrummer saddrummer is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

This is one the only editorials I have ever read, that actually has a theory that is probably completely right and that I cant think of any arguement against.

This shows that a careful re-reader can uncover these interesting facts.

Bravo!!


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Old May 22nd, 2006, 10:13 pm
hyogoetophile  Male.gif hyogoetophile is offline
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman
Hyogoetophile, I think Dumbledore believed Harry and Hermione because he takes young people seriously and knows that these two aren't liars. If he had known all along that Sirius wasn't the S-K, then he wouldn't have given them the T-T so they could go back and save him because that would raise the question of why he hadn't intervened to save him before.
I don't think it was that simple. As Snape suggested, they could have been put under a Confundus Charm. Perhaps Snape and Dumbledore did some Legilimency or something and Dumbledore knew, but I don't think it was simply a matter of him suddenly taking H&H at their word.


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Old May 23rd, 2006, 12:21 am
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Re: Why Lily's Wand had to be Good for Charms

Dumbledore states categorically that he did not know Pettigrew was secret keeper for the Potters. This happens in Chapter 21 of PoA (Hermione's Secret). As you point out in your editorial Dumbledore had nothing to gain from lying in this situation and, with only one possible exception, Dumbledore has never lied to Harry.

As to who cast the Fidelius Charm, I believe it was Sirius since I doubt anyone could cast such a powerful charm on themself as well as others. The only other example of a powerful charm we have seen in the books to date is the Unbreakable Vow that Snape and Narcissa make in HBP. For this charm a third party (Bellatrix) was needed and I beleive the same should hold true for the Fidelius charm also.


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