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Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?



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  #1  
Old June 12th, 2006, 6:52 am
buygraphpaper  Female.gif buygraphpaper is offline
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Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Discussion for Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof? by hulagal.


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  #2  
Old June 12th, 2006, 9:29 am
vlasiou  Female.gif vlasiou is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Nice editorial. The Fidelius charm has been discussed extensively and it is nice to see some of the theories summed up. I also believe that the formulation of the charm is important for the secret to be still...secret, and I enjoyed the idea that murder nullifies the charm. It is as if a splitted soul cannot bear the burden of a deep secret that it has to keep from the rest of the world. I think the editorial could have stressed more the idea of notes. It was a good remark that Hagrid indeed passed a note. My first assumption is that in a bank you need more than your word "Mr X told me to empty his vault", so a written and signed note may be necessary, but this does not mean that a cleverly written note cannot serve both purposes. My feeling is that the Fidelius charm is nullified if the Keeper speaks the secret. If you open your mouth that is... If you safely want to pass the secret around, without the whole world finding about it, then you need to write it down (any other ideas? what happens with illiterate wizards?)

I'd love to know what Wormtail did, and I enjoyed the new theory "he did nothing else but murder. This was sufficient for the charm to break, even if he carefully divulged it only to Voldemort". It makes it sound as if you need a Superman-kind-of-guy to keep your secret: a pure soul, never murdering, really brave, and to be trusted.


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  #3  
Old June 12th, 2006, 10:41 am
krish  Male.gif krish is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Awesome theory, something different. Two thumbs up.

Just a few things that were unclear though, if Dumbledore was the secret keeper for the Philosophers stone, and the no one knew the stone was in a vault, why remove it in the first place?

As for murdering nullifing the charm, I think this is taken care of in the description

"immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it."

I interpreted the "single, living soul" as a singular person that is ... well living obviously. Which implies that there can only be one secret keeper for any given secret. The last sentence also suggests that there is only one way that the keeper can pass the secret, which reminds me, why would Wormtail "split his soul" in order to divulge the secret, there is nothing stopping him from doing so without killing people?


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Last edited by krish; June 12th, 2006 at 10:45 am.
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Old June 12th, 2006, 10:45 am
Harryzhorcrux  Female.gif Harryzhorcrux is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Very interesting theory. Good work.


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Old June 12th, 2006, 11:21 am
wannagoballwime  Male.gif wannagoballwime is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

excellent editorial
you really paid good attention to the fine print, the most interesting was the view that Dumbledore might have placed a Fidelius charm, on the vault, very, very thoughtful.
Of course it would be so boring if Dumbledore's death foolproofed the Order's Headquarters, that way people would have always killed their secret-keepers
Good thought on the mechanism of a Fidelius charm, it really does protect the Headquarters
good work


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Old June 12th, 2006, 11:28 am
Tauriel  Female.gif Tauriel is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Not a bad editorial, but I don't understand why do you assume that every time a wizard kills someone he automatically splits his soul? There is no evidence in the books for this claim.

To create Horcrux (i.e. split your soul), you have to kill someone. But not vice versa, you can kill people without having to split your soul.

And honestly, I don't think Wormtail is such a powerful wizard to be able to split his soul and create a Horcrux.


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Old June 12th, 2006, 12:28 pm
libbypotter  Female.gif libbypotter is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

I don't think that when someone kills their soul is automatically split, I think they have to preform dark magic to do it. Say you were an Auror, I guess you would have to kill in the line of duty. Would all Aurors end up with split souls? Unlikely in my opinion. Anyway well written


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Old June 12th, 2006, 1:54 pm
wheelithoss  Male.gif wheelithoss is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Very nice theory and well written editorial. The only problem I can see is the fact that Harry can also see the stone when Hagrid removes it from vault 713. If the Fidelus charm was there he would not be able to see it unless he read the note that was passed to the Goblins. Other than that though i can see no faults. Good job.


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Old June 12th, 2006, 2:31 pm
susanova  Female.gif susanova is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

A well-written piece, but a mixed bag of logic to my way of thinking. The phrase is "single, living soul" and not "whole, living soul" so I'm not sure if it's really the same thing.

HOWEVER, the bit about the note for the whereabouts of Philosopher's Stone was an excellent point of speculation! Unless someone asks Jo, I don't think we'll ever know this for sure. But then again, recall that Gringott's was burglarized some short time after the Stone was removed. If the Stone was really protected in this way, is it conceivable that a copy of the information went astray? Quirrel went bin-diving and found this bit of parchment? Oh, this raises more questions than it answers...


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Old June 12th, 2006, 2:38 pm
Seeringrose  Female.gif Seeringrose is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Acutally regarding the vault thing I have a diffrent view. You said it wasn't till after the stone was removed thus rendering the charm useless the Quirel( i don't know how to spell it) tried to steal it. I find that incorrect I thought Dumbledore would have told all is staff about it. So when Quirel found out he got ready to try to steal it. He probaly could have if Hagrid had come later.


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  #11  
Old June 12th, 2006, 3:25 pm
Waterfall  Undisclosed.gif Waterfall is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

waitwaitwait... I was trying to find a quote to support my opinion that you can kill without necessarily ripping your soul apart, but instead I found one that seems to suggest the opposite. Here:

Quote:
"How do you split your soul?"
"Well," said Slughorn uncomfortably, "you must understand that the soul is supposed to remain intact and whole. Splitting it is an act of violation, it is against nature."
"But how do you do it?"
"By an act of evil- the supreme act of evil. By committing murder. Killing rips the soul apart. The wizard intent upon creating a Horcrux would use the damage to his advantage: He would encase the torn portion-"
"Encase? But how-?"
"There is a spell, do not ask me, I don't know!" said Slughorn, shaking his head like an old elephant bothered by mosquitoes.
HBP, American, p. 497-498
So according to Slughorn, our primary source of information about Horcruxes, the wizard making a Horcrux does not inflict upon his soul any damage that would be unusual and would not come naturally with killing. He only uses this damage to his advantage. I'm not sure what I think about this affecting the Fidelius Charm- the Fidelius is hardly my area of expertise- but it's interesting still.


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Old June 12th, 2006, 3:45 pm
nevillesgal  Female.gif nevillesgal is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

I really enjoyed the editorial, and I think you may be onto something. I think we need to take what Professor Flitwick said about the "single, living soul" very literally. Also, I thought Dumbledore or maybe it was Slughorn told us in HBP (don't have my copy right now) that killing someone splits your soul. Simple as that. So, in my opinion, killing anyone would split your soul, no matter who you are or how you do it. If you kill in the line of duty as an auror, you knew that going into it, so you would know the chance of splitting your soul. Anyway, I do not think that the stone as protected by a secret, since Harry could also see it and Hagrid didn't tell him the secret.

on your excellent thought process and great job!!

EDIT: I just saw the post above me with the Slughorn quote. That is the one I was thinking of. It really seems to me, based on that quote, that anyone who kills anyone would split their soul, so I think the author of the editorial had it right!!!!


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Last edited by nevillesgal; June 12th, 2006 at 3:47 pm.
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Old June 12th, 2006, 4:26 pm
blessed_dragon  Female.gif blessed_dragon is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Interesting theory. I'm not really sold on it, though.

When it comes to things as important as the Fidelius Charm and Horcruxes, I take the information we have very literally. Therefore, I believe that the bit about a "single, living soul" refers to one person who is alive. If it had been worded differently I would probably have more time believing you.

However, anything is possible. Killing does rip the soul so I don't doubt the concept that maybe if you kill while a Secret Keeper, the charm no longer views you as a living person, seeing how you have now committed an unnatural act.


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Old June 12th, 2006, 4:52 pm
NeonDisease  Female.gif NeonDisease is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Bravo, well-written, well-argued, and well within the realm of possibility!

Great Job!


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Old June 12th, 2006, 5:06 pm
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Very interesting editorial.

I liked you idea about Hagrid bringing the note from DD because was the secret keeper of the stone.


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  #16  
Old June 12th, 2006, 5:32 pm
NeuroComp  Undisclosed.gif NeuroComp is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Why would AD want to remove the stone if there was a F.Charm on the vault? that doesn't make sense. UNless you are referring to your theory of when killing splits AD soul. Yet you mention that AD may not have killed grindelwald. So confusing. As for splitting pettigrews soul...didn't he betray the potters before his soul was split? Interesting enough pettigrew didn't die so the secret didn't die with the keeper...but even more interesting is the fact that Hagrid found Harry. Only JKR can tell us what happened


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Old June 12th, 2006, 6:50 pm
Gryffinpuff  Female.gif Gryffinpuff is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Interesting idea! I've always thought the Fidelius Charm worked more for the object/thing in question than a location. The perfect example would have been the Potters. Flitwick said Voldemort could have had his face pressed up against their sitting room window and not see them. Not to mention that people were swarming all through Godric's Hollow after it happened, since Hagrid said he had a tough time getting Harry out without being noticed my the Muggles. Once the Potters were dead, the spell wouldn't have been needed anymore, though it does make you wonder if it is still somehow intact with Harry...


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Old June 12th, 2006, 7:22 pm
Volodymyr  Undisclosed.gif Volodymyr is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Killing does not necessarily tear the soul. Murder does.

There IS a difference. All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder.

For example, Harry did not murder the Basilisk.


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Old June 12th, 2006, 8:02 pm
Perman  Undisclosed.gif Perman is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tauriel
Not a bad editorial, but I don't understand why do you assume that every time a wizard kills someone he automatically splits his soul? There is no evidence in the books for this claim.

To create Horcrux (i.e. split your soul), you have to kill someone. But not vice versa, you can kill people without having to split your soul.

And honestly, I don't think Wormtail is such a powerful wizard to be able to split his soul and create a Horcrux.
Quote:
Originally Posted by libbypotter
I don't think that when someone kills their soul is automatically split, I think they have to preform dark magic to do it. Say you were an Auror, I guess you would have to kill in the line of duty. Would all Aurors end up with split souls? Unlikely in my opinion. Anyway well written
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volodymyr
Killing does not necesarily tear the soul. Murder does.

There IS a difference. All murder is killing, but not all killing is murder.

For example, Harry did not murder the Basilisk.

I agree with all of this.. In addition, there is no evidence that if you MURDER someone, and your soul is split, there will be conquences of having a split soul inside your body.. I find it hard to believe that someone who for instance has killed people in the past, in the future then wouldn't be able to redeem himself because of his soul being split.

I have always seen this split as sort of temporary, as more of a rift that the making of a Horcrux uses to extract a soul. If so you don't live with 2 souls inside you, only with a damaged one, or maybe more likely, 2 souls that restore themselves to a damaged whole.

Cause let's face it, some of the consequences of a soul being split each time you just kill someone are plainly ludicrous (for instance that aurors have split soul because of killings in the line of duty).


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Old June 12th, 2006, 8:05 pm
Chas  Male.gif Chas is offline
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Re: Is the Fidelius Charm Fool Proof?

Fascinating editorial. Thanks! Great insight that splitting a soul could let a secret out!

"The headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix is located at Number 12, Grimmauld Place." The Order of the Phoenix is a secret order, yes, but not protected by the Fidelius Charm. We know that, because the Order was discussed freely by its members, even in the presence of others who were not members (like the Weasley kids and the Trio before they went to the HQ). Rather, the secret was Number 12, Grimmauld Place, the location.

I think this is important because I'd bet that the secret about Godric's Hollow is not really Godric's Hollow, especially since Jo has told us it's a village. Rather, I think the secret was James and Lily Potter. That way, anyone could go to Godric's Hollow, but only those who knew the secret could find James and Lily once they got there. Also, I don't think anyone ever actually found the bodies of James and Lily after their death; but the rubble of the house was found-- and it would be important to recover Harry, because he was not covered by the secret. I believe that Dumbledore, Hagrid, and Sirius knew the secret from earlier, so they could freely get around and assess the situation.

Just my interpretation of some events. The key insight of the editorial, about how a Fidelius secret could get out, was wonderful.


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