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A Very Prophetic Christmas



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  #1  
Old December 16th, 2006, 5:34 pm
Rayjo  Female.gif Rayjo is offline
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A Very Prophetic Christmas

Discussion for A Very Prophetic Christmas by Troy B.


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  #2  
Old December 16th, 2006, 5:56 pm
HP_hedgehog  Male.gif HP_hedgehog is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

Well, I'm not sure. I can't help but recall the "importance" of the song of the hero Odo, which some people relate to where Dumbledore's wand has gone.

I've always loved the lines of the songs (she sings more) as a classical Wizard's Cristmas song and maybe, yes, Jo had made a connection to Voldemort in her mind while writing this song... but I don't think it will ever make the book. It's just open to interpretation and ... if interpreted in this way, it gets interesting (from the Voldemort/horcrux point of view).

Thank you, though, for bringing up something new to discuss!


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  #3  
Old December 16th, 2006, 7:46 pm
wannagoballwime  Male.gif wannagoballwime is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

well, its a good interpretation, but how do you know that its only a lamenting Voldemort? It could be Snape too, regretting wht he did ....<sob>... if voldemort laments at the end, it would look soo preachy and cliched...but Jo anything you do ALWAYS rocks

also Mrs.Weasley is the one who likes celestina so much.... can the song tie to her in any way? not necessarily in a tragic sense.....


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Old December 16th, 2006, 8:14 pm
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

Someone made the point of your editorial a few montha ago and I liked it then too. I think the connections between Celestina Warbeck's song and Voldemort are great to be a mere coincidence. In my opinion, it would be very like Jo to give us information about book 7 in a place we wouldn't think to look straight away.
If it was just a song, who not include it in another book? Yet it features in Book 6 where we learn that Voldemort make Hocruxes. Plus, the only other time Celestina Warbeck has fatured, is like you said, in Chamber of Secrets and Jo herself said that parts of Half Blood Prince were connected to book 2.
I don't think it'll be a case of Voldemort 'lamenting' his lost soul though. I just think that havig an incomplete soul will be his downfall in the end.
Over all a great editorial, shot and to the point. Well done!!


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Old December 16th, 2006, 9:18 pm
TheDarkLord05  Male.gif TheDarkLord05 is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

Hi well The Dark Lord returns at last! I actually think this is quite a logically brilliant idea and that it could very well be spot on, i don't see how it couldn't happen. The fact that it is the type of thing Mrs Rowling would do also convinces me that this idea/theory could in fact happen. To whomever wrote the editorial, well done!


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Old December 16th, 2006, 9:47 pm
Twycross  Male.gif Twycross is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

I'm sorry mate but I don't think it's possible for Voldemort to feel regret, Snape, maybe but, not Voldemort. He has never felt love and he has torn his soul apart literally! These two things are what really make him unequalled in the evil department. It's not that he doesn't feel regret, he can't feel regret. It's a nice idea but not really founded.


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  #7  
Old December 16th, 2006, 10:10 pm
Emerald63  Female.gif Emerald63 is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

First off... Troy B. - Thank you for providing not only a new editorial, which is a happy making thing all by itself, but a new idea to discuss as well!

Second... It's an intriguing idea and one I'm not sure I would have ever caught. So double thanks for bringing it up.

Third... The other posters have made a decent claim that it may be too late for Voldemort; his torn soul is too damaged to heal. But then, on the other hand, JKR says she's Christian and in that faith it's never too late for anyone who's willing to repent and change their ways. So who knows? Personally I've thought for quite a while that Harry will somehow help Voldemort to heal, somehow help him transform through the ultimate magic - love. What better way to show just how truly powerful love can be, as Dumbledore worked so hard to convey to Harry? (And what a wonderful tribute to DD, too, if Harry were to aid in Voldemort's redemption.)

Fourth... You make an excellent point, Troy B. when you say
Quote:
I thought to myself, How Sneaky has JK been before?
That's what's so fun about JKR's books - she tosses in all these wonderful little tidbits that may be important clues. That's cool enough, but even when they turn out not to be clues, they're still just such fun connections, little nudges in our ribs so to speak. If we pay attention to those nudges, clues or not, it's like she's right there giving us a wink and a grin. Not a lot of authors are able to do that. Yeah... Jo Rules!!!


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Old December 17th, 2006, 1:23 am
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

At last, a new editorial. I'm not sure I agree with the theory since I doubt Voldemort is capable of any form of remorse. Maybe it is Snape to whom the song is referring but I'm not sure.

Anyway it is good to see a new editorial after such a long wait since the last.


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Old December 17th, 2006, 3:13 am
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

Emerald--hi! I believe JKR has said all the characters are redeemable except for Voldemort.


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Old December 17th, 2006, 3:47 am
ClayPotter  Female.gif ClayPotter is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twycross View Post
I'm sorry mate but I don't think it's possible for Voldemort to feel regret, Snape, maybe but, not Voldemort. He has never felt love and he has torn his soul apart literally! These two things are what really make him unequalled in the evil department. It's not that he doesn't feel regret, he can't feel regret. It's a nice idea but not really founded.
I tend to agree, but think a re-read on my part is in order. I am about to re-read HBP for the third time, but must admit that I only have read CoS once. I don't even remember the lady singing in CoS. JKR did say in an interview that she feels this is all one REALLY long book. So what happens in the beginning is just as important as what happens in the end if we are looking for clues.


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Old December 17th, 2006, 7:00 am
thoth200  Undisclosed.gif thoth200 is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

i like the idea kinda cool.....maybe something will happen similar to the Priori Incantatum will happen and harry will have the upper hand because he has a full soul where LV has 1/7 of a very ripped soul. that would make LV regret splitting his soul. this could be how harry has the power LV does not. if for some reason their souls have to duel harry would be stronger 6x stronger :-)


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Old December 17th, 2006, 7:39 am
belsito  Female.gif belsito is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

Quote "...Celestina Warbeck's Christmas songs are a prelude to Voldemort showing regret for not keeping his soul whole during his quest for immortality..."

This clearly shows that the author of the editorial is not implying that Voldemort will regret having been so evil in the past, only the fact that he will regret weakening himself by splitting his soul into so many parts in his effort to become immortal. He will regret the path he has chosen for immortality, he will regret his underestimation of Harry's powers, he will regret some of his methodology but he will never feel any REMORSE. Regret and remorse are quite different. Remorse is feeling sorry for what you have done because you realize that your actions were morally wrong - Voldemort would just realize that his method of becoming the most powerful wizard was not the best he could have chosen - that's regret but definitely not remorse!

I liked this editorial, because as was pointed out, JK would not write a whole chapter, just for the sake of writing it - the book is long enough; there's no apparent need for a filler chapter. Every chapter helps the plot or a sub-plot along and that chapter does not really do anything to the story. It could be just JK having some fun, toying with us as only she knows how! It's what I like best about her and her books. There is such a great rapport between her, her books and her fans that is not there with any other author. The great thing is that she loves it just as much as we do. It is like a great chess game that we are playing with her - only, she is the one to know all the moves and we just play along knowing that she is the one who can call all the shots, but enjoying the game all the same. I don't know if this makes sense but it makes sense to me.



Last edited by belsito; December 17th, 2006 at 7:42 am.
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Old December 17th, 2006, 10:34 am
mo1  Female.gif mo1 is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

Nice editorial ! Thanks a lot for this new idea, and for giving it to us so timely for Christmas!

There are two things I would add that others posters have not yet mentionned.

First about the relation about Celestina and the sky and the stars. It's a great idea to thing about the connection with astrology, but there can also be the mere fact that a star os a word for a famous singer. It's most likely the two at once.

Then, about the purpose of the song itself. Assuming your theory is right then "heart" in the song then mean "soul" in Voldemort's case. Why JKR didn't use "soul" in the song is quite obvious : then the link would have been too obvious. But the choice of the word "heart" is very interesting in itself. heart refers to bravery and love. Dumbledore keep on talking about the power of love as the way Harry will vainquish Voldemort and he mentions only once the power of a whole untarnished soul. Could the purpose of this song be to give us an hint that there is a link between heart (love) and soul, and that the power of love that will vainquish Voldemort is in fact related to the power of a whole soul? That would be interesting.


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Old December 17th, 2006, 8:22 pm
HP_hedgehog  Male.gif HP_hedgehog is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

Well, as for the name Celestina, I always thought is was from the music instrument, the Celesta... which seems logical to me, since she is a musician/singer/whateverwithmusic ... and for the comment on the warmth and love in the song ... ok, this COULD relate to the things you've mentioned, but isn't it more likely that Celestina is singing a common (wizarding, though) love/Christmas-song? I really like the idea of the PS/SS Potion Task riddle, the Sphinx's riddle, the Odo-heroical song, these two songs and whichever poem/song/riddle I'm forgetting now, having a future impact that will never make the books of course, but will make you think, while re-reading, "Wow! That was so obvious and profond and it has like... 3 different meanings!", but I'm thinking this one is a bit far-fetched. Maybe the plot-points in the Chapter were Rufus talking to Harry, the Percy-thing, Lupin and what he had to say on Greyback and... simply that, in these times, it was still possible to have fun (remember the gnome?) and have a nice time together? It may not be put in there explicitly, but I think that that's what Jo tries to convey, just like when Harry hands over the Triwizard Tournament money to the twins, saying that they'll all need a laugh with these times ahead. And she, of course, needed a relaxed and calm situation in which everybody could have a good talk (like with Lupin).

Anyway, I still think it's great that you've presented us a new idea! (my HP-knowledge is almost getting a bit rusty during this drought and me being busy for school)

Though I disagree with your ideas, good job!


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Old December 17th, 2006, 9:37 pm
Emerald63  Female.gif Emerald63 is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClayPotter
...I only have read CoS once. I don't even remember the lady singing in CoS.
I reread CoS only recently. Celestina is first mentioned in Chapter 3, The Burrow. When Harry first arrives at the Burrow, after the twins and Ron came to rescue him from behind bars at #4 Privet drive, the wireless radio is on. The announcer mentions Celestina Warbeck as the "singing sorceress." She's performing on a show called The Witching Hour. That's the only mention of her until the Christmas chapter in HBP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman
I believe JKR has said all the characters are redeemable except for Voldemort.
Hi back, Shewoman! Rats, I must've missed this interview. Hmm... going out on a limb here since I didn't read that interview, but maybe she meant he couldn't redeem himself. Harry seems to do amazing things, though, and given all the alchemical references in the books, as well as Harry having gotten powers from LV and having something he never knew, love, maybe Harry's involvement will somehow allow (not actually make) a reconnect between LV's soul parts.

Maybe not, but it just seems very weird that there is so much redemption potential in the books, and Rowling is Christian, that she'd say what she did. Not saying she didn't, just that it's weird.


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Old December 18th, 2006, 2:10 am
ClayPotter  Female.gif ClayPotter is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald63 View Post
I reread CoS only recently. Celestina is first mentioned in Chapter 3, The Burrow. When Harry first arrives at the Burrow, after the twins and Ron came to rescue him from behind bars at #4 Privet drive, the wireless radio is on. The announcer mentions Celestina Warbeck as the "singing sorceress." She's performing on a show called The Witching Hour. That's the only mention of her until the Christmas chapter in HBP.
Thanks for the info. I thought perhaps that there were more song lyrics to interpret.

I still can't help but wonder if Harry actually has to kill Voldemort or do something else. In the battle at the Minestry in OotP, Dumbledore tells Voldy that he does not want to kill him, there are things worse than dying. I also would hate to see Harry end up a killer. Somehow that would go against all the good things this book series stands for. Perhaps Voldemort will end up like the Wicked Witch of the West in Wizard of Oz. When Dorothy tries to save the Scarecrow whom the witch just set on fire, she accidentally throws water on the witch, melting her. Perhaps some proctective spell Harry casts to save one of his friends will also accidentially kill Voldemort in the process. And the death would have to do with the fact that Voldemort has only a fraction of a soul to keep him alive. A whole soul would have been able to survive the spell.

Just a thought.


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Old December 18th, 2006, 4:55 am
notasquib2  Female.gif notasquib2 is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

I think that "regret" could simply mean that Voldemort could realize that by ripping his soul he has given Harry the upper hand by not realizing the power of a soul that is still whole, as Dumbledore said. Regret and redemption are not necessarily the same thing.

As for this being a common Christmas song, Mrs. Weasley commented that she and Arthur danced to this "back in the day" and she seems to love this particular artist, so it seems more likely to me that it is a love song particular to Ms. Warbuck.

Nice job. We need more editorials like this, those that are aware of the little things and don't necessarily feel compelled to tackle the big issues.


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Old December 18th, 2006, 5:47 am
kerri  Undisclosed.gif kerri is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

interesting! your being vigillant, mad eye would be proud.

im always gobsmacked when jk sneeks somthing by us that is so blantently obvious, yet how could we have really known. theres no way to know if you've caught onto somthing until book seven.....so, we'll have to wait.

until then, love that chapter as well!


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Old December 18th, 2006, 7:04 am
Phil_Stone  Undisclosed.gif Phil_Stone is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

I don't care if she is a Christian, since that can mean so many different and incompatible things. What I'd like to know is if she likes the BeeGees.

"How can you mend a broken heart?...Please help me mend my broken heart, and let me live again..."

This lyric ties the Warbeck song to the prophecy, as neither can live while both survive. And the implication of the Gibbs' song is the answer is love. It has frequently been asked upon these boards, what happens to a soul when it is torn but a horcrux is not made? Can the rip be mended or heal? Can the Power of Love mend a soul? (And does the Power of Love explain Harry's surprisingly powerful Patronus?)

I believe it was Dumbledore who said that Voldemort is no longer truly human, and it seemed as a result of his "experiments." I always took that to mean not simply in appearance, but something more important. If he is no longer human, what is he more like? (A dementor, a potential target of Harry's patronus?) And what of the soul slices that were contained by the destroyed Horcruxes (the Diary and the Ring, at least)? Were they destroyed, meaning Voldemort could never be fully human, or did they return to him, perhaps awaiting the Power of Love to rejoin them? Dumbledore criticizes Voldemort as not comprehending that there are things worse than death. But in PoA, he also characterizes Sirius' potential fate as worse than death. Do the Dementors, particularly the fruit of their breeding (as mentioned in Chapter 1, HBP) have a role to play in Voldemort's vanquishing?

Or did the famous "gleam" in Dumbledore's eye mean that he understood Voldemort had unintentionally made himself more human, and that by taking Harry's blood, had made himself all the more susceptable to the Power of Love?

It is worth noting in this context that The Power of Love is an old bone of contention between Voldemort and Dumbledore. And despite his sense of obligation as Riddle's teacher, Dumbledore has never been able to arrange a satisfactory demonstration for Voldemort. Perhaps he is just not open to the idea, or perhaps actaully wielding the Power of Love is very rare. In which case what Harry can do with it may be far more sophisticated than our normal appreciation of it. And yet it will almost certainly translate to normal, non-fictional Muggle life in a way JKR's younger readers will comprehend. Voldemort would interpret Harry's simply choosing not to kill him as weakness, so there must be something more to it.


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Old December 18th, 2006, 8:30 am
inkling7  Female.gif inkling7 is offline
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Re: A Very Prophetic Christmas

As others have said before me I too hadn't thought about that intriging connection. I too think Voldemort will be vanquished by the power to love or the power to inspire love that Harry seems to have. I don't mean that Voldemort with have remorse or love anyone but the love that Harry has for people or the love that thse people have for Harry will somehow play a part in the downfall of Voldemort. However I agree that Voldemort will regret splitting his soul into so many pieces as this has possibly weakened him spiritually and that spiritual weakening will somehow be his downfall. The words to the song also seem to imply the spell and the soul splitting and just may have been put there for a purpose other than just as the words to a love song.


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