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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One



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  #1  
Old March 11th, 2007, 9:27 am
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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

This is to discuss Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One by Steve Connolly.


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  #2  
Old March 11th, 2007, 11:12 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

Nice editorial. i have been holding the same opinion about Dumbledore and Snape alliance


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Old March 11th, 2007, 11:21 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

I don't know. I don't like the idea of Dumbledore lying at all.

I always thought Snape had been listening with his ear to the door, and he heard the first three lines, at which point Aberforth grabbed him and asked him what he was doing. As Snape came up with his excuses, Trelawny finished the prophecy, and Aberforth opened the door to reveal Snape. Nothing fishy here.. I disagree that Snape knows the full contents of the prophecy, because DD has already said that there are only him and Harry who know the full contents (and once again, I refuse to accept Dumbledore lied.)

Also, I thought this editorial would include some contact with Petunia and Dumbledore before the attack (Remember my last!) but you didn't mention anything there regarding DD's plan, when we know he had corresponded with her earlier.

But otherwise, I agree that Dumbledore had a plan and he confided it only with Snape, who will come in very useful in DH.


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Old March 11th, 2007, 11:31 am
outsidessence outsidessence is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

Very good, very good! I really like te idea!!!
You mentioned that the book only leaves Harry's perspective in his dream (GoF) and in HBP but of course the Boy Who Lived is seen through the eyes of McGonagle and a narrator.
Eagerly awaiting Part Two!!!


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Old March 11th, 2007, 12:30 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runes View Post
I disagree that Snape knows the full contents of the prophecy, because DD has already said that there are only him and Harry who know the full contents (and once again, I refuse to accept Dumbledore lied.)
but he's doing it to protect one of his most important spys, as Voldy might be listning in at this time. And what makes you think dd can never lie to anyone?


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Old March 11th, 2007, 1:38 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

Dumbledore never lies in the entire series, although he makes emotional mistakes. Severus fancied dark arts and this is exactly why James potter hated snape becuase he knew snape will go to the dark side in future. Snape is like regulus black, he just cannot handover his resignation to the voldemort instead he joined order of the phoenix and took the job as a spy. Snape joined the order only after Harry's parents were murdered - there is some other connection here. He did not know the full contents of the prophecy or he would have saved harry's parents according to Dumbledore.

"And Snape was just this little oddball who was up to his eyes in the Dark Arts, and James - whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry -always hated the Dark Arts." - OOTP
"Professor Snape made a terrible mistake. He was still in Lord Voldemort's employ on the night he heard the first half of Professor Trelawney's prophecy. Naturally, he hastened to tell his master what he had heard, for it concerned his master most deeply. But he did not know - he had no possible way of knowing - which boy Voldemort would hunt from then onwards, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that Professor Snape knew, that they were your mother and father -" - HBP
The reason why Dumbledore trusts snape answers all our doubts. I think 'Irma Pince' = 'I am Prince' - is Elieen prince, Snapes mother.

Rowling once said Snape is not like Voldemort, though Harry disagrees .


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Old March 11th, 2007, 2:01 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

Top notch job!

Love the idea of a master plan, of course Dumbledore would have a plan! He’d be stupid not to, plus it gives real depth to the books, having something going on beneath the surface that the readers only get the smallest glimpse of.

Concerning Dumbledore telling fibs, we have seen Dumbledore lying before you know – to Umbridge when the DA were caught in OotP. If think given Harry’s feeling towards Snape and the fact the LV keeps bobbing in and out of his head it was very necessary to lie.

I think if we want to know when Dumbledore recruited Snape we have to look at the times in canon that they met before LV met his end, because as you say we have all the pieces of the jigsaw, it is just a matter of putting them all together. The only two times I can think of are at the time the prophecy was given and at the time of the werewolf incident, while Snape was still at school. If we are correct in thinking that Dumbledore already had Snape working for him before that night, then could it be possible that Snape was recruited back in his school days? That would give Dumbledore a chance to teach him Occlumency. We can only speculate as to why Snape would become a spy for Dumbledore before he had even left school, so I am not going to… I’ve got a funny feeling that that might be an unpopular idea, but hey, that’s the kind of girl I am



Last edited by stellium; March 11th, 2007 at 2:03 pm.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 2:31 pm
Harry10  Undisclosed.gif Harry10 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

Somewhat disappointing start to this new series.
I agree with Runes, there is a fairly straightforward answer to this problem, namely that Aberforth grabbed Snape before he could listen in. Frankly the author of this essay appears to start with a fundamentally false premise and work towards a totally flawed conclusion.
In which case it's very appropriate to mention Red Hen whose every essay appears to do this.
We must hope that the next essay is an improvement.


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Old March 11th, 2007, 2:57 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry10 View Post
Somewhat disappointing start to this new series.
I agree with Runes, there is a fairly straightforward answer to this problem, namely that Aberforth grabbed Snape before he could listen in. Frankly the author of this essay appears to start with a fundamentally false premise and work towards a totally flawed conclusion.
In which case it's very appropriate to mention Red Hen whose every essay appears to do this.
We must hope that the next essay is an improvement.
I really like Red Hen’s essays, she is a lateral thinker and I admire that

The way I see it, there has to be more to the Dumbledore/Snape relationship, we know there is because there are so many outstanding questions, and I think book 7 would be really dull if JKR finishes up with ‘yeah, he was evil like I said all along, nothing going on underneath the main plot, completely 2D character, the end, full stop’. That would be RUBBISH!


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Old March 11th, 2007, 3:55 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runes View Post
I don't know. I don't like the idea of Dumbledore lying at all.
I agree. This editorial has some poor reasoning behind it. It is trying to make mountains of molehills in order to provide complex scenarios that really cannot naturally arise as explanation in Deathly Hallows, as too many of the principals are dead.

Ultimately, the editorial is looking for a [i]plot[i]-oriented resolution to these issues rather than a charactr-oriented one. However, Harry Potter stories are character-driven: the major plots turn not on events or schemes, but on individual "right but hard" or "easy but wrong" choices.

The biggest lie that would emerge from this is Dumbledore's claim that he thought Snape to be so distraught about endangering one or both of Harry's parents so much that Dumbledore thought that this is why Snape came over to the "right" side. However, this editorical completely omits this incredibly crucial piece of information! Moreover, it offers no indication of why Snape sided with Dumbledore or how Dumbledore secured his loyalties. These would be key parts of Snape's personality and history, and some other side-effects of those reasons should have emerged in the prior 6 books! There has been nothing, however, which means that Rowling would have failed miserably in developing her characters. Remember, when the "why" of Snape finally is bared, it should make us (well, those of us who have not figured it out already) slap our foreheads and say "d'oh!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Editorial
Wait a minute. That can’t be right.
There is no major contradiction between what Dumbledore and Trelawney say. Snape could not have been apprehended and ejected from the bar entirely within the time that it took to say the Prophecy. Dumbledore's line is, to some extent, figure of speech: Snape was apprehended listening to the prophecy. He was then thrown from the bar. Dumbledore's line, as a brief summary, simplifies things slightly, but that is what happens in those circumstances. It was not just that the complicating details were more than Harry needed to know, but that at that time it was far more important that Dumbledore cut to the chase.


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Originally Posted by Runes View Post
I always thought Snape had been listening with his ear to the door, and he heard the first three lines, at which point Aberforth grabbed him and asked him what he was doing. As Snape came up with his excuses, Trelawny finished the prophecy, and Aberforth opened the door to reveal Snape. Nothing fishy here...
Excellent! A simple, to the point explanation that is consistent with the canon and that then sets up the "why" of Snape to be character driven rather than plot driven.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Runes View Post
I disagree that Snape knows the full contents of the prophecy, because DD has already said that there are only him and Harry who know the full contents (and once again, I refuse to accept Dumbledore lied.)
I agree: this is much better reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runes View Post
Also, I thought this editorial would include some contact with Petunia and Dumbledore before the attack (Remember my last!) but you didn't mention anything there regarding DD's plan, when we know he had corresponded with her earlier.
Ah, but that probably was about something different. Dumbledore could not foresee what would happen as the outcome was completely unique and utterly improbable. I am sure that Dumbledore did have contingency plans for protecting the Potters, but he could not have guessed that Lily would somehow find a way to reverse an Avada Kedavra, or that she would sacrifice herself in such a way that he (Dumbledore) could later weave a spell from it that would give Harry protection at the Dursleys!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runes View Post
But otherwise, I agree that Dumbledore had a plan and he confided it only with Snape, who will come in very useful in DH.
Dumbledore seems to have been aware that Snape had taken the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco, and that Draco was trying to kill him. We would do well to recall the chess game in Stone: sometimes the chessmaster has to sacrifice himself in order to get his pieces to a place where they can strike down the enemy!

Rowling almost always has used character-based explanations for the "why" of Potterverse. Snape stands as her most complicated and intriguing character. If he turns out to be working against Voldemort (even if not truly for Dumbledore), then his reasons for doing so have affected many other things in the series. A simple "welll, I've actually been working for Dumbledore since I was 18" is not going to cut it. If nothing else, then why would anybody believe this from Snape?


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Old March 11th, 2007, 6:16 pm
cfptwenty  Male.gif cfptwenty is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

Hi there

I really liekd the editorial,I think all the things that DD did that we don't know about is very important and im sure we'll find out more in the last book. A few points though.

1. I too also believed after reading HBP that Snape had heard the entire prophecy but my interpretation is that he was in with voldemort properly by then but maybe the reason why DD trusted Snape so much is that he convinced Snape to only reveal the first part of the prophecy to set a trap, thereby becoming the spy. Maybe he convinced Snape by telling him that the potters were expecting a child near the end of july as DD might have known about Snapes affections towards lily? The lexicon timeline puts the prophecy at being made in jan 1980, 7 months before Harry was born so DD would have known about the baby's due date.

Also i wonder, if DD had decided to lure Voldemort into a trap, why hide the Potters away? I guess i'm going to answer my own question but if they hadn't been hidden, Voldemort might have sensed a trap. Although maybe the potters didn't know about the prophecy and DD had to sacrifice them both in order to create one with the power to conqurer the dark lord?


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What is the big twist, the big revalation jo talked about????? Does it have to do with the gleam of triumph,harrys green eyes,james's invisibility cloak,Aunt Petunia,Snapes loyalty,Dumbledores reason for trusting Snape,Voldemort giving Lily a choice,whatever is in that locked room, the veil,the remaining horcruxes,the two-way mirror,the other person at godrics hollow that night,wormtails life debt,that awful boy,Dumbledore's screams whilst drinking the potion,James's and Lily's jobs,dumbledores family,spouse's of hogwarts staff,Hagrid in knockturn alley,dumbledores boggort and his vision in the mirror,the lost day,someone doing magic very late in life,RAB,why voldemort wanted a job at hogwarts, (which i think this might be linked to the title of book 7)the smoky machine dumbledore used in order of the phoenix or none or all of the above????
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Old March 11th, 2007, 6:28 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

Dumbledore to Harry in "The Man With Two Faces," Book 1: "I shall answer your questions unless I have a very good reason not to, in which case I beg you'll forgive me. I shall not, of course, lie."

Dumbledore withholds information from his allies or tells the truth in a way that deceives (in "Owl Post Again," PoA: "Well, there you have it, Severus. Unless you are suggesting that Harry and Hermione are able to be in two places at once, I'm afraid I don't see any point in troubling them further"), but we never see him lie to them. (Umbridge, of course, is a completely different kettle of nasty.)

I agree that Snape is on Dumbledore's side; it is hard to reconcile this happening around the time of the Prophecy with Dumbledore's statement in HBP ("The Seer Overheard") that he believes Severus returned because Voldemort interpreted the Prophecy in a way that endangered people Snape knew. In "Spinners End" Snape tells Bella that "it was on the Dark Lord's orders that I took up the post [at Hogwarts]" and Bella agrees; he may have been in the Hog's Head on V's orders. Trelawney thinks he was planning on interviewing with Dumbledore that day as well ("Seer Overheard").

As far as the two versions of the Prophecy go, they need not be irreconcilable. Trelawney tells Harry ("Seer Overheard") that Dumbledore did not seem favorable towards divination "and I remember I was starting to feel a little odd, I had not eaten much that day . . . but then we were rudely interrupted by Severus Snape!" She describes seeing him and the "rather uncouth barman" and, after that, "Dumbledore seemed much more disposed to give me a job." Her account and Dumbledore's agree that he was not impressed until after what we recognize as the Prophecy/spy episode. I think that the "oddness" Trelawney said she felt just before seeing Snape was her slipping INTO the trance, not coming out of it. Thus Snape would have heard the beginning of the Prophecy but (depending on how fast the Dumbledores reacted) not the end. She goes into some detail about the men's appearance and action at this moment but says nothing about their leaving--in my opinion, because at that time she was fully in the trance and therefore can't remember it.


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  #13  
Old March 11th, 2007, 7:05 pm
Thark Thark is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

there is no other explanation for why Dumbledore would lie to Harry, except to protect Snape’s cover.

What about the way Harry would take the news? Especially given his state at the time. It's not as though Harry would betray Snape's cover in any event - but he wouldn't exactly be confident in Dumbledore if he heard about that little arrangement.

I never considered that Snape could have been a double agent prior to the Hog's Head sequence - it would certainly explain why Dumbledore chose to trust him with such an important mission, though he could also have been playing Monseigneur Bienvenu - but in any event, he was not at the Hog's Head because of the prophecy, which came as a surprise. Voldemort would surely have employed Legilimency for something so major, so Snape must have seen the first part in order to let it slip through his Occlumency screen.

It's worth noting that, depending on the definition of "mark", Voldemort could succeed in killing the Chosen One; I think by that point, Snape hated plenty of people on both sides, and used the opportunity to keep his options open.

This editorial has some poor reasoning behind it. It is trying to make mountains of molehills in order to provide complex scenarios that really cannot naturally arise as explanation in Deathly Hallows, as too many of the principals are dead.

Aberforth.

Dumbledore seems to have been aware that Snape had taken the Unbreakable Vow to help Draco, and that Draco was trying to kill him. We would do well to recall the chess game in Stone: sometimes the chessmaster has to sacrifice himself in order to get his pieces to a place where they can strike down the enemy!

Dumbledore denies to Draco that Snape made the Vow - which only undermines his case, so I get the feeling that he either didn't know or was told it was a feint. His plans seemed to incorporate Draco alone - the Freezing Charm makes perfect sense if Dumbledore was trying to keep Harry from interfering with Draco's persuasion, but not so much if it's to leave him as a witness with the totally wrong impression.

And as the Horcruxes are the key to striking down the enemy, the pieces in question don't look to be in a better position from where I stand.



Last edited by Thark; March 11th, 2007 at 7:24 pm. Reason: non-double-posting
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Old March 11th, 2007, 7:53 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

I too realized there were discrepancies in the story that Sybil told and the one Dumbledore recounted. I also thought then it must have been the second half of the prophecy that Severus heard.

"...he will have power the dark lord knows not and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives; the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord will be born as the seventh month dies...."

We see the part about marking him as his equal is not in the second half. It is just before the second part. So there is definitely something wrong about the story that Harry has been given. Either Sybil got the story second-hand and tells it as though she witnessed it or Dumbledore is telling it differently than the real way it happened. It probably has to do with Snape's cover and Dumbledore's duplicity. The truth will be revealed in the seventh book!


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Old March 11th, 2007, 8:07 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

I have had the same theory since reading HBP... and I always thought there was a LOT more the the words "my plan" that are said often by DD then strictly keeping Harry safe. You editorial put what I have been thinking in a very coherant prose. I think if DD is behind everything that has happened (at least to a degree) it explains SO MANY THINGS!!!!!!!! Not the least of which is his words while drinking the potion in the cave.


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Old March 11th, 2007, 8:20 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

A well written editorial if nothing else. But what makes it so hard to believe Snape only heard the beginning of the prophecy?

Could Snape have followed Dumbledore into the Hogs Head and up the stairs. Crouching outside the door he heard:
'The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...'

At this stage Aberforth Dumbledore walks up the stairs and sees him. He grabs him and tousels him about while in the room Trelawnley is prophecising:
'and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have a power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to defeat the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...'

Aberforth barges into the room, Sybill wakes up, Albus is startled. Snape starts making excuses. Dumbledores glare. Snape ejected.

Do Mugglenet editorial writers ever check up here?

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Old March 11th, 2007, 9:03 pm
dilys22  Undisclosed.gif dilys22 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

To me there is nothing in this editorial that I haven't discussed somewhere before.
The discrepancy in Dumbledores and Trelawneys account of what happened during the prophecy has been discussed - there are the following possibilities.
1. Snape lies
2. Dumbledore lies
3. It happened as Dumbledore said - and I agree with Runes. It doesn't take at all long to speak these few lines of the prophecy and to come round. Enough time for Aberforth and Snape to have a lengthy altercation - and Snape wouldn't have heard a thing with Aberforth shouting down his neck.

But Dumbledore - although not directly lying - is economical with the truth where Snape is concerned. During HBP you get the impression that Snape is very important to Dumbledore; there is a snide remark by Phineas Nigellus, Snape now DADA teacher, healing Dumbledore's hand (?), healing Katie Bell.
Dumbledore defending Snape - but never fully justifying his trust in Snape in front of Harry. Dumbledore fobs Harry off with a cover story for Snape's trust that nobody can believe.

I am convinced that Snape; not Harry - has been told as much if not more about Voldemort's Horcruxes as Dumbledore knows. Harry may be the one to vanquish the Dark Lord, let's take that for granted; but will he therefore be the one to 'vanquish' all these protective spells around his Horcruxes. Frankly, I doubt it. He really hasn't got the 'ability or the nerve'.
Dumbledore assigned that task to Snape. And I'm sure he hoped to get Snape and Harry to collaborate. Except they hate each other. And as long as they hate each other as much as they do, telling Harry is unsafe. There is a risk that Snape's cover would be blown. Also that of Voldemort invading Harrys mind. I agree here. Dumbledore died too early, and he didn't even have time to tell Snape that Harry had heard from Trelawney that it was Snape who heard the prophecy.

So Dumbledore feels guilty for not killing Tom Riddle as an eleven year old.
I'm not sure I buy that.
There is a suggestion of guilt in something he says while forced to drink the potion. If that potion acts on the mind to enhance own feelings then there probably is something.
In the life of a 150 year old wizard it could have been anything. I always thought it related to something Dumbledore went through during the Grindelwald wars. Something that made him rethink and offer second chances to others.
Even Tom Riddle.

So Dumbledore told Snape half the prophecy as a lure for Voldemort?
Do I understand that right?
I don't believe that.
Dumbledore doesn't set much store in prophecies as such. He knows that prophecies mean nothing if nobody acts on them.
It doesn't look like Dumbledore to use a baby as a bait to lure Voldemort, to get Snape in the inner circle.


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Old March 11th, 2007, 9:15 pm
Irregardless  Undisclosed.gif Irregardless is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

RE: "Dumbledore wouldn't lie.

Dumbledore is running a war. Winston Churchill, who also ran a war, said that "In war, Truth is so precious that she must always be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies." JKR doesn't flinch from the fact that war means killing. She would hardly flinch from the fact that it also means lying.

And Dumbledore is fighting an enemy who can read minds. (Yes, yes, Professor Snape, "perform legillemancy.") There is information that he simply cannot give to anyone who is not an expert Occlumens. That would include any information that would expose Snape's role as a double agent. Dumbledore is honest, but honesty is not a suicide pact.


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Old March 11th, 2007, 10:49 pm
Thark Thark is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

Quote:
Originally Posted by dilys22 View Post
I am convinced that Snape; not Harry - has been told as much if not more about Voldemort's Horcruxes as Dumbledore knows. Harry may be the one to vanquish the Dark Lord, let's take that for granted; but will he therefore be the one to 'vanquish' all these protective spells around his Horcruxes. Frankly, I doubt it. He really hasn't got the 'ability or the nerve'.
So destroying a Horcrux is tantamount to casting an Unforgivable? I doubt it.

In any case, Snape wouldn't know any more about the Horcruxes than Dumbledore does - Voldemort is pretty cagey with those things, you know. And if he knew as much as Harry and was expected to destroy the Horcruxes, why didn't he accompany Dumbledore to the lake instead?

Quote:
Dumbledore assigned that task to Snape. And I'm sure he hoped to get Snape and Harry to collaborate. Except they hate each other. And as long as they hate each other as much as they do, telling Harry is unsafe. There is a risk that Snape's cover would be blown. Also that of Voldemort invading Harrys mind. I agree here. Dumbledore died too early, and he didn't even have time to tell Snape that Harry had heard from Trelawney that it was Snape who heard the prophecy.
Because witnessing him killing Dumbledore isn't enough to inspire unconditional hatred.

Quote:
So Dumbledore feels guilty for not killing Tom Riddle as an eleven year old.
I'm not sure I buy that.
I'm pretty sure he feels guilty for what he did to Lily and James.

Quote:
So Dumbledore told Snape half the prophecy as a lure for Voldemort?
Do I understand that right?
I don't believe that.
Dumbledore doesn't set much store in prophecies as such. He knows that prophecies mean nothing if nobody acts on them.
It doesn't look like Dumbledore to use a baby as a bait to lure Voldemort, to get Snape in the inner circle.
Snape being in the inner circle is pretty secondary at this point, at least to Dumbledore - luring Voldemort is, intellectually, the most bloodless way to end the war.

Snape ending up in both inner circles is, I'll warrant, far more important to Snape, but even so, he doesn't feel like he's got much gratitude from either since.


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Old March 11th, 2007, 11:00 pm
shootingstar_50  Male.gif shootingstar_50 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part One

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Originally Posted by Runes View Post
I always thought Snape had been listening with his ear to the door, and he heard the first three lines, at which point Aberforth grabbed him and asked him what he was doing. As Snape came up with his excuses, Trelawny finished the prophecy, and Aberforth opened the door to reveal Snape. Nothing fishy here..
Yes, I also think to be much more likely that Alberforth got Snape before Trewlaney finished and then they quarreled several minutes until Trelawney finished the prophecy (Albus did not meddle in the quarrel because he was listening to Trelawney).

In any case, I do not think Dumbledore would set Voldemort on Lily and James on purpose.


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