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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two



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  #1  
Old March 13th, 2007, 1:46 am
more2live4  Female.gif more2live4 is offline
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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

This is to discuss Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two by Steve Connolly.



Last edited by more2live4; March 13th, 2007 at 1:53 am.
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  #2  
Old March 13th, 2007, 2:18 am
Draco Spirit  Male.gif Draco Spirit is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

I never relised that in the whole of book one, Dumbledore was playing for time ! I bet at this time he was still collecting evadnce about Volys Horocux making too.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 4:46 am
sondra sondra is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

Quirrell was already the Dark Arts Professor, before Voldemort possessed Quirrell. I'm sure Dumbledore know Voldemort was using Quirrell and set the trap. Some have said that this was indangering the students .I agree with you about Dumbledore's motives.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 5:01 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

Another interesting editorial! I had always figured that Dumbeldore had some knowledge of what was going on throughout the first year, but I didn't think he knew about Voldemort the whole time. However, your theory sounds plausible and I look forward to part three.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 5:58 am
Lauren85  Undisclosed.gif Lauren85 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

I also don't think its possible that Dumbledore would have known about Voldemort possessing Quirrell for the whole year-while the biding time theory is interesting, I don't think he would actually knowingly keep Voldemort in Hogwarts with Harry and the other students, despite the fact that he was so weak. Quirrell's demise proves that he was still capable of harm.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 8:28 am
sfgilgalad  Undisclosed.gif sfgilgalad is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

Are you sure Quirell have been DADA teacher more than one year? Dumbledore must have noted this.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 1:20 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

Brilliant set of editorials, though I have problem with your theory that is very fundamental to the issue.

If the whole point of bringing the stone to Hogwarts was to entice Voldemort to steal it, as Voldie's real desire was Harry's blood as you suggest, then why did Voldemort/Quirrell try to steal the Stone while it was in Gringott's over the summer.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 2:23 pm
Ginny89  Undisclosed.gif Ginny89 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

I wonder what JKRowling thinks about this editorial/thoery?

(I think it's right, not to metion brilliant!)


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Old March 13th, 2007, 2:30 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

In this editorial, you insinuate that Dumbledore knew about Voldemort's horcruxes during Harry's first year at Hogwarts. It was my understanding that Dumbledore only became suspicious of the possibility of Voldemort having created one or more horcruxes near the end of the second book when he became aware of Tom Riddle's diary and recognized that it might have been a horcrux.

I think that your articles are well-written and imaginative, but I also think they're more than a little bit off-base. Having said that, I'm still looking forward to reading the next one and seeing what you come up with next!


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Old March 13th, 2007, 2:44 pm
Tic_Tac_Toe  Female.gif Tic_Tac_Toe is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

Imk- Dumbledore would have realised the path Voldemort had taken years before finding the diary- If you remember, he noted how different Tom Riddle looked when he requested the position of DADA teacher again after Prof. Dippet died. Being very educated he would have guessed what Tom was up to. I think the only speculation he had was on the exact number of horcruxes Voldy had made (which was confirmed in Slughorn's memory).

I think they're good editorials but too similar to what is on Red Hen Publications. This one in particular just seems a re-write of 'The Quirrell Debacle' with no original ideas of your own.


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  #11  
Old March 13th, 2007, 2:52 pm
Dr_Tot Dr_Tot is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

In addition to the stone being in Gringott's at the beginning of the year (as opposed to Hogwarts), I have a couple of other things to add:

1st, Dumbledore or Flamel must have known early on that somebody was after the Stone, because it was moved right away before the school term started. Whether or not they knew it was Voldemort/Quirrell, I don't know. Your theory sounds pretty good, though.

Secondly, not all of the protections were added right away when the Stone arrived at Hogwarts. Specifically, the Mirror of Esriad was not utilized until at least after the Christmas break. We know this because it was out in the open when Harry discovered it while wandering the castle. In fact, I think it may have been Harry himself who gave Dumbledore the idea to use the mirror as a safeguard. But he did not add the Mirror to the list of protections until later in the term.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 3:34 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

In HBP Dumbledore tells Harry that he wasn't sure about V having a Horcrux until Harry found/destroyed the Diary.

I'm confused by this sentence: "He [Dumbledore] had ultimately caused the physical body of the Dark Lord to be destroyed, resulting in mass celebration throughout Wizarding Britain and ten years of naught but happiness and security for all." LILY caused that. JKR has said that no one knew what would happen when Lily gave her life to save Harry, so Dumbledore couldn't have set that up.


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  #13  
Old March 13th, 2007, 4:39 pm
Tic_Tac_Toe  Female.gif Tic_Tac_Toe is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Tot View Post
when Harry discovered it while wandering the castle. In fact, I think it may have been Harry himself who gave Dumbledore the idea to use the mirror as a safeguard. But he did not add the Mirror to the list of protections until later in the term.
I think he arranged to have it bought to Hogwarts (it's a pretty unusual item) as a test for Harry- after all, he did not really know Harry's true character or loyalties at this point. For all he knew he was a dark wizard in waiting.
So he gives Harry the invisibility cloak to go wandering, and waits invisible himself to see what Harry's true desire is. Finding out it was entirely pure and uncorrupted, he decided to implement it in the trap for Voldemort, knowing now Harry would not want the stone for himself.

You can kind of see this in a convo DD has with Harry in HBP:
"In spite of all the temptation you have endured, all the suffering, you remain pure of heart, just as pure as you were at the age of eleven, when you stared into a mirror that reflected your heart's desire, and it showed you only the way to thwart Lord Voldemort, and not immortality and riches."


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Old March 13th, 2007, 7:30 pm
dilys22  Undisclosed.gif dilys22 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

I think the author is reading too much between the lines.
You do have to look at the text as well !!

This whole theory is based on the assumption that Dumbledore feels guilty about the way Voldemort turned out.
There are two pensieve memories relating to that - one at the orphanage and the second 'Lord Voldemorts' request.
After the visit at the orphanage Harry actually asks this question - and Dumbledore says that he did then not know, that Voldemort would turn out the way he did.
When Voldemort applies for the teaching post Dumbledore knew that he had committed atrocities. He is very, very sad. But he does not feel personally guilty.
There is no evidence in or between the lines.

That does not mean the author has not put the finger on some of the inconsistencies in the first book. Dumbledores unexplicable behaviour was for me the reason to discard the book as a childrens story, no more.
The question is valid, why Snape knew from September that Quirrell was after the stone and Dumbledore apparently only got an owl in the last moment!?! That can't be right.
But there is more than one possible explanation.
Snape will turn out to be a very complex character; he had reasons of his own for not telling Dumbledore; for meeting clandestinely with Quirrell in the forrest.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 8:11 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

Well, um, let me start by saying that you write very well. Unfortunately I can't get behind your first two editorials for many reasons that you have already heard.

To the first editorial, Snape is the enigma that everyone wants to answer. In fact I believe that people will try, as you did, to find a path, however convoluted, to make Snape out to be good or evil. And I find it to be more about Snape than about DD chess match with Voldemort. I think the whole series is over analyzed, when in fact that we are simply looking in the wrong place. Mugglenet has a list of unanswered questions. It is my theory that they all inter-relate somehow yet people will forget that. We will analyze the questions that we think we have answers for without realizing how that answer will impact other questions.

Why does DD trust Snape? He trusts Snape because Snape turned spy for the order prior to Voldemorts death. Why did Snape turn spy before Voldy's downfall? Answer because he was upset that the Potters were chosen by Voldemort after Snape tells him the part of the prophecy. Why was was he upset that the Potters were chosen? Answer-as yet unknown reason due to his days as enemies with the James and Lily at school.

JKR states clearly though canon that these are sequence of questions and answers. If your theory held water it would address the above questions and answers but it does not. By making Snape a spy before the prophecy it negates all the questions that follow why does DD trust Snape?

If there was any pre-planning on DDs part it was not with the prophecy nor with Snape. It was with Petunia.

To your second editorial I have to reiterate that DD clued in on the horcruxes for sure in COS, however I am sure that he was aware of the POSSIBILITY of horcruxes as early as SS. But just because DD is aware of the possibilities does not mean that he thinks that Voldemort knows about all of them or would even attempt them if he did. It also suggests that horcruxes are not the only other ways Voldemort would have for remaining/returning on/to earth. Therefore how could DD, in SS, have planned for EVERY possibilty upto and including horcruxes? Answer, he can't. As for why all the extra protections---Voldemort wanted to use the stone. Not Quirrell. Maybe DD was afraid that Voldemort might be able to access the stone through Quirrell and decided that extra protections would be worth it.

Again if there is any plan involved at all it would be more along the lines of letting Harry continue his investigations i.e. giving him a chance. DD plan from the time that Harry comes to Hogwarts is to PREPARE Harry for a confrontation with Voldemort. DD is certainly not going to throw Harry to the dogs at quite such a young age. He was willing to let Harry figure things out about Nicholas Flamel but I doubt that eleven year old Harry would have been able to stand against Quirrel. While Harry indeed held his own for a bit it is stated that DD was relieved that he arrived just in time to pull Quirrell off of him. Harry was no match for Quirrell and I doubt DD put up easily defeated protections so that Harry could fight Voldemort in the end. It's just too convoluted.

But a huge thumps up on your writing style. I couldn't do better myself.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 8:58 pm
harrysensei  Undisclosed.gif harrysensei is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

I think you're dead on with your theories...the opposing opinions don't seem to take into consideration that there was a history/life at Hogwarts prior to Harry's arrival.

I can't wait to see how close to the mark you are. Great research/writing thus far.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 9:00 pm
Idabomb333  Undisclosed.gif Idabomb333 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

I think the author tends to be a bit more sure of some points than he should be, but displays a lot of insight and is probably fairly close on some points.

I don't believe the conclusion of the first editorial that Dumbledore deliberately had Snape tell Voldemort part of the prophecy, particularly because Dumbledore told Harry that Snape really was loyal to Voldemort at the time of the prophecy. I don't think Dumbledore would lie to Harry, just hide some of the truth from Harry before he thinks Harry's ready to hear it.

I think this second editorial was much closer to being true, but I think there's a crucial point missing. I think Dumbledore hoped to trap Voldemort. I think part of the reason for the other 6 protections was to make Voldemort believe that it wasn't a trap, but the mirror was meant to keep Voldemort occupied for a long enough time that Dumbledore could return and trap him.

There's the mysterious spell that Dumbledore used at the Ministry, that wasn't meant to kill Voldemort. There's the fact that Voldemort said as Vapormort, he had to stay hidden from the aurors. It adds up to Voldemort knowing that even as Vapormort, he could be caught even though he couldn't be killed. I think Dumbledore used the mirror and other protections so he'd know Voldemort would be there, and he could capture him while he was weak.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 9:23 pm
dilys22  Undisclosed.gif dilys22 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

Quote:
To your second editorial I have to reiterate that DD clued in on the horcruxes for sure in COS, however I am sure that he was aware of the POSSIBILITY of horcruxes as early as SS.
flimseycauldron: Dumbledore was aware of Horcruxes far earlier than that. Remember the 'sluggish' memory: Slughorn mentions to the 16 year old Tom Riddle that Dumbledore didn't want Horcruxes mentioned or taught or discussed.... (forgotten the exact wording). So that seems to be history even from before Tom Riddle's time at Hogwarts.
I'm not sure about the timeline here, but I think Tom Riddles last year was the same as the defeat of the Grindelwald. Dumbledore must have learnt about them somewhere else and before Tom became aware of Horcruxes. Certainly, when Voldemort didn't die, the night the AK backfired he must have suspected it.
In COS he started to consider that Voldemort might have made more than one Horcrux.


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Old March 13th, 2007, 9:57 pm
sfgilgalad  Undisclosed.gif sfgilgalad is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

Right, good editorial !
I think I have an other explaination though:
Dumbledore thought is : I am going to trap Vapormort and Quirell in this cave, wondering forever how to get the stone, and only thinking of it (this is the mirror 's power), so I have plenty of time to destroy the horcruxes, with all my good friends, and teach Harry so he can get all the powers he needs to kill Voldemort as soon as we destroyed the horcruxes. And we might even save Quirell.
Quirell might have been one of Dumbledore's favorite. He came back BEFORE september, of course, they're not going to have their first meeting on the first day of class (Teachers work in summer). While they meet, Dumbledore sees Quirell changed and quickly in the summer, prepares his plan.
Dumbledore was still trying at this time to fish Voldemort, and keep him in cage. Imagine the disaster in book 2 if the Basilisk and 2 voldemorts had been liberated !!
Sadly, Harry killed Quirell, and liberated Voldemort. Dumbledore's happy because he's a happy person (except that he doesn't get socks for Christmas, while even Dobby does). And if I were Snape, I would really hate Harry !!


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Old March 13th, 2007, 10:21 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Two

Quote:
Originally Posted by dilys22 View Post
flimseycauldron: Dumbledore was aware of Horcruxes far earlier than that. Remember the 'sluggish' memory: Slughorn mentions to the 16 year old Tom Riddle that Dumbledore didn't want Horcruxes mentioned or taught or discussed.... (forgotten the exact wording). So that seems to be history even from before Tom Riddle's time at Hogwarts.
I'm not sure about the timeline here, but I think Tom Riddles last year was the same as the defeat of the Grindelwald. Dumbledore must have learnt about them somewhere else and before Tom became aware of Horcruxes. Certainly, when Voldemort didn't die, the night the AK backfired he must have suspected it.
In COS he started to consider that Voldemort might have made more than one Horcrux.

I think you missed interpreted my post. DD knew what horcruxes were far before Riddle did (you're probably right about Grindlewald) and that is why he banned Slughorn for talking/teaching about them. What I was saying in my post was that he had no reason (having forbiden Slughorn, whom he trusted, to tell) to suspect that Voldemort would have known, or if he had, been brave enough to attempt to create 1 much less more than one. DD states in HBP that it was the diary that made DD think of horcruxes at all. It is only conjecture that DD would have thought that Voldy would have one at all after Godric's Hollow. Even at the end of SS Dd said there were other ways for Voldy to come back. Horcruxes would be one way, the SS another, and probably more.


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