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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four



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  #1  
Old March 17th, 2007, 5:32 am
more2live4  Female.gif more2live4 is offline
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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

This is to discuss Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four by Steve Connolly.


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  #2  
Old March 17th, 2007, 8:20 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

That was a cool article, but just one thing: the time-travelling was not an option, because it had already happened. It was just Dumbledore allwoing the events to happen, because they had already happened.


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  #3  
Old March 17th, 2007, 10:23 am
outsidessence outsidessence is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

Ye okay the series so far has been good but that was weak. It was too much of a plot summary of the PoA and not a serious in depth look at Dumby.


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  #4  
Old March 17th, 2007, 4:04 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

Even thogh it was a good article, you didn't have much to work with in the third book. I will be looking forward to the next one.
Cheers


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Old March 17th, 2007, 5:15 pm
Chas  Male.gif Chas is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

Thanks for the series. It is interesting.

Just one thing, though. I think Albus Dumbledore could have known about the animagus skills of the Marauders. I don't think it would change your argument. Since Albus helped engineer the Shrieking Shack, he probably knew the role of Remus' friends in the process. I also think he knew about Snape's trip to the shack, which again means he likely knew of the animagi.


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  #6  
Old March 17th, 2007, 5:24 pm
Phil_Stone  Undisclosed.gif Phil_Stone is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

Did Dumbledore know Harry was sneaking into Hogsmead? Was he keeping an eye on Harry himself?

Knowing that Sirius had been thrown into Azkaban without a trial or even much of an interogation, why didn't Dumbledore at least go out there and try to find out what he could about Voldemort from Sirius?

Lupin says that he felt guilty never telling Dumbledore about the Marauders animagus enchantments. When James and Pettigrew were both thought dead, and Sirius was presumed to be after Harry, why didn't he tell Dumbledore? Does that fact that Lupin never told necessarily mean that Dumbledore did not know?

Agian we have references to Dumbledore's Master plan, without any clue to whether the Author means it to be anything more than keeping HArry alive and teaching him what he can learn before he faces Voldemort, and doing what can be done to delay Voldemort's return. That is just what everyone assumes is happening. Editorial 1 added the theory that Dumbledore set up the ultimate confrontation by getting Voldemort part of the Prophacy. Does the power of Love, which seems to amplify HArry's patrronus on PoA, and its supposed role in his ultimate victory imply that Dumbledore wanted HArry to learn Patronus charms, and test them against Dementors?

Was it part of Dumbledore's plan to conceal from Harry that his parents' friend had betrayed him, in order to give him a chance to develop friend of his own? Surely he would have had some trust problems if he learned early on that his father's best friend had betrayed him. Everything we have seen suggests that Harry's friends strengthen him. Could that have also been part of Dumbledore's plan? He knows much more about the Power of Love than we do. (We might wonder why upon finally having access to wizarding records and history, Harry didn't take the first chance he had to learn all that he could about his parents and their deaths. Surely the Dursley's code of silence could not have constrained him. Even if the reports of their deaths made no mention of their secret keeper. And would Muggle tabloids ignore the connection between Sirius Black, his supposed friend Peter Petigrrew, and their friends, the Potters?)


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Old March 17th, 2007, 5:42 pm
Chas  Male.gif Chas is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_Stone View Post
Did Dumbledore know Harry was sneaking into Hogsmead? Was he keeping an eye on Harry himself?
It's my pet theory that one way Dumbledore knew so much about what was going on is through his picture on so many Chocolate Frog cards.


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  #8  
Old March 17th, 2007, 5:47 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

So Dumbledore's master plan for this year was . . . nothing, really. Until he sends Harry and Hermione back with the T-T, he doesn't intervene.

Chas--We know that Dumbledore knew about Sirius' attempt to kill Snape via WereLupin because we know he told Snape then to keep Lupin's "furry little secret" a secret. But that wouldn't require him to know that the other three Marauders were Animagi. In "Owl Post Again" Dumbledore tells Harry Sirius told him the night before that they were animagi and mentions what an "extraordinary achievement" it was that they had kept him in ignorance of that while they were at Hogwarts.

Phil Stone, James told Dumbledore that Sirius was going to be the S-K, and Sirius himself laughed vociferously when he was arrested and apparently didn't ever claim to be innocent (if he did, we haven't heard about it yet). So Dumbledore had personal knowledge that Sirius was the Keeper (not knowing that that had been changed) and really didn't have any reason to think he was innocent. I think the fact that he tried to lure Snape to his death by werewolf would make it easier for Dumbledore to believe he could have betrayed James and Lily. After all, he'd already betrayed Lupin by letting Snape know his secret. It is, of course, possible that he did try to help Sirius--but we don't know about it. We do know he testified that Sirius was the S-K.

Lupin doesn't like upsetting people. If you'll notice, throughout the series he tends not to stand up for himself or for his job (remember he was a pretty inept Prefect, at least where James and Sirius were concerned). As someone who's been a werewolf since he was about 6 (IIRC), he knows that there's a lot of prejudice against him and has probably cultivated his rather quaint charm because he doesn't want to risk doing anything to increase that or to alienate the few people his wolfishness doesn't bother. He seems to have believed that Sirius was the Potters' betrayer and was coming after Harry (until he realized Peter was still alive) and STILL didn't tell Dumbledore a) that Sirius could be hiding in dog form OR b) that Sirius knew a secret passage that would get him onto the Hogwarts campus. I hate to say it, but he's a bit of a coward. I think he didn't want Dumbledore--who had done so much for him both as a student and later--to realize that Lupin had betrayed his trust as a student.

I think Dumbledore hadn't told Harry about his parents' betrayal because he didn't want to hurt Harry (which is why he kept him in the dark about the Prophecy for so long). Your suggestion that he wanted Harry to trust his friends is an interesting one and may well be right. It is frustrating the extent to which Harry DOESN'T ask questions about his parents' lives or deaths, especially since he's presented in general as a very curious person. He must realize that McG was their Head of House and that probably most of his teachers taught them as well. It is apparently necessary to the plot that he (and so we) know so little about them (and NOTHING about Lily's friends) yet.


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Old March 17th, 2007, 6:40 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

this series of articles are brilliant Steve. well thought out and they also seem very plausible. I've always wondered what Dumbledore was doing behind the scene and now I think we know. Great job!!!!!!


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  #10  
Old March 17th, 2007, 9:21 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

My favorite one so far, I agree with most everything said


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  #11  
Old March 17th, 2007, 9:48 pm
hilere  Female.gif hilere is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

I'm disappointed. This was a plot summary, not an indepth analysis.


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  #12  
Old March 18th, 2007, 12:22 am
plainlypotter  Female.gif plainlypotter is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

shewoman and Phil_Stone

the author reminds us that JKR mentioned Sirus in SS (when she explains how Hagrid got the motorcycle - Since Dumbledore knew that Sirus was the secret keeper why do you suppose he was not surprised that Hagrid wasn't attacked when he went to get harry and for that matter why didn't Dumbledore go the Godric's Hollow to get harry himself since harry was so important to his plan. It all appears rather "fishy" from the start. I realize that setting up the protections for harry were very important but wasn't harry himself more important?


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Old March 18th, 2007, 6:35 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

That's a good question. That's several good questions. Clearly DUmbledore did believe that Sirius was guilty since he testified that he was the Potters' S-K and doesn't seem to have made any effort to defend him--in fact, he's so sure Sirius is a danger that he allows dementors (whom he HATES) to surround the Hogwarts campus for Harry's protection in PoA. So that lets out any conspiracy between Dumbledore and Sirius to set a trap for Voldemort (as does, of course, the fact that Sirius was not the S-K).

We don't know what exactly Dumbledore was doing before he shows up on Privet Drive. I think he was ascertaining what Harry's scar was--and if it made him dangerous--and what had kept him alive. Since he gives Harry to Lily's sister that evening, he must have already deduced what she did and how it saved Harry and hurt Voldemort (so he wouldn't have been afraid Voldemort would come after Harry that day; I think he could have predicted that the DEs would be in some disarray). Getting the protections in order was vital to keeping Harry safe--and we learned in HBP, I believe, that Hagrid is not as vulnerable as most human beings are to being stunned, etc.

I don't know that he'd be surprised that Sirius didn't attack a part-giant.


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  #14  
Old March 20th, 2007, 5:09 am
Phil_Stone  Undisclosed.gif Phil_Stone is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

Plainly &Shewoman- I think Plainly is correct in the notion that there is something significant we dont know about that day. The fact that JKR has apparently pointed to Dumbledore having James' cloak as being crucial certainly confirms that there was something going on which we have not figured out.

I have wondered at the celebrations. We know Harry survived, as did they. But while we know (at least approximately) what happened to Voldemort, what was known at the time? Who was there to report Voldemort going off as a wraith?

McGonnagle asked if anything could be done about the scar, but as I recall, Dumbledore doesn't answer directly. He mentions that scars can sometimes be useful. And in some ways it is, both for Harry and for Voldemort. I think that means that Dumbledore did study the scar, and no doubt examined Harry as closely as possible. Perhaps Harry's own memories of what happened, as interpreted by Dumbledore, are what provided the basis for the general understanding of what happened. Since Morphin's memories were reasonably clear, perhaps Harry's would also be useful.

But that would seem to assume contact between Harry and Dumbledore. But none is shown, or spoken of.

My original point about Dumbledore interogating Sirius stems from several notions I have about Dumbledore. First I think he has a far stronger sense of Justice than most of the leading Magical folk. I didn't get the impression that Sirius had a trial, and so the full facts of the case might have been concealed. Were others involved? Dumbledore would want to know those facts to insure complete justice, and to protect against Voldemort's return, even if he didn't want those fact widely known.

Secondly, we all know he tends to think the best of people. Would the Dumbledore who trusted Snape accept that things were as simple as they seemed, that Sirius had betrayed his best friend, without a direct admission? Wouldn't he hold out hope that something else had gone wrong? Would Dumbledore trust a crowd of Muggles to correctly interpret their experiance of Magic?


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  #15  
Old April 19th, 2007, 5:03 am
marckusb  Male.gif marckusb is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Four

DD had been going through DADA teachers like they were going out of style,and few wanted the position. So few, in fact, that in Chamber, he's relegated to hiring a total non-competens. Lupin was the DADA teacher in Azkaban because DD begged him to do it, and Lupin took the position begrudingly (not wanting to risk harm to the students). It follows, then, that the Sirius ordeal had nothing to do with Lupin teaching at Hogwarts.


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