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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five



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  #1  
Old March 17th, 2007, 9:09 pm
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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

This is to discuss Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five by Steve Connolly.


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  #2  
Old March 17th, 2007, 9:24 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

I find it really difficult to believe that Dumbledore couldn't (or didn't) guess that the Dark Marks were getting stronger and harry being rigged into the tounument weren't connected. Even if he didn't guess on Halloween, he certainly knew by the beginning of 1995, after the events of the Yule Ball


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Old March 17th, 2007, 9:46 pm
TKoko  Male.gif TKoko is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

I have a feeling that Dumbledore might of had some trouble that year because so many things had happened. But he difinatly knew that dark times were coming. He knew that the caretaker at the Riddle House had died and I think he could have conneced the dots. Can't wait for more.


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Old March 17th, 2007, 10:08 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

Yes, I also believe Dumbledore was a little more wise to Voldy's plan than this editorial suggests. This part 5 was certainly better that last time. However I have a problem with the whole round-trip portkey thing. I thought that Voldemort had wanted to keep his return a secret from anyone other than his DEs for as long as possible and he certainly didn't want Dumbledore to know. That would rule out bowling out of the maze in front of the whole of Hogwarts and probably most of the Ministry of magic.

So why was the portkey a round-trip one? Your guess is as good as mine. I think that maybe it wasn't intended to be one, afterall it certainly behaved differently in this way than any other portkeys that we've seen. Perhaps this was one of those rare occasions where Harry deomstrates his immense power. I dunno just a thought...


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Old March 17th, 2007, 10:11 pm
Irregardless  Undisclosed.gif Irregardless is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

I agree that Voldemort had to be planning to send his Death Eaters back to the maze from the graveyard. Otherwise, why not have Crouchmoody just invite Harry into his office for a portkey of coffee?

And that attack would have been a masterstroke, a wizarding Pearl Harbor. This is one of the differences between Voldemort and Dumbledore. Voldemort is always trying for the single decisive battle, no matter how difficult to pull off. Dumbledore is willing to take small victories where he can, for example, putting off Voldemort's return for a year here, a year there, in hopes that it will never happen.

Well, both approaches failed at the end of GoF -- Voldemort didn't get his Pearl Harbor, but he did return. Maybe HPDH will break the tie.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 1:10 am
plainlypotter  Female.gif plainlypotter is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

Although I have mostly agreed with the author I think he has missed some important points in this editorial. If, as the author of this piece suggests, we are to look to the master plan of dumbledore, then I think dumbledore must have known that Moody was an impostor earlier or just didn't care. I know this sounds heartless, but give me a minute to explain.

If the ultimate plan is to destroy voldemort and harry is an essential piece of that plan, and harry is afterall just a child how did dumbledore expect harry to accomplish the task? here I really dip into the realm of conjecture. First , if harry is so important why doesn't Dumbledore help harry with the tasks? Although I think that Dumbledore was worried that harry might be harmed I think that he knew harry would get help from voldemort's helper. We are continuously told that there is little that happens at hogwarts that dumbledore doesn't know about, and I think that this applies here as well. While the author of this piece suggests that Michael Gambon's portrayal is spot on I am of the opinion that dumbledore was not as aggressive as he appears in the movie version of GoF because this was all going in accordance with his plan.

all of us have speculated about the "gleam in dumbledore's eye referred to at the end of GOF - what if harry had basically completed his role in the destruction of voldemort in book four? Now I know you have noticed that voldemort is still about causing havoc, and now that HBP has been published we all know why he still "lives", but what if harry's only role in voldemort's destruction was to "donate" his blood? When I first read GoF I postulated that harry's blood would act like an incurable infection which would kill voldemort, but could not see how this could happen until HBP was released. Now we all know it is because of the horcruxes. With this in mind then is harry or for that matter dumbledore essential for the plan to be completed? I suggest that now that there are people who know about the horcruxes and that there were six made with two already destroyed, one need not directly face voldemort, rather the only necessity is to destroy the remaining horcruxes and harry's blood will do the rest.

As for the reference to the death eater who abandoned lord voldemort I suggest that voldemort knew that karkaroff had fled by this time and snape was the death eater too cowardly to return


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Old March 18th, 2007, 1:18 am
Andromeda_T  Female.gif Andromeda_T is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

That was a great editorial! I really enjoyed it. You give great insight into what Voldemort was doing during Harry's fourth year and what his plans were, and I think it's really good that you're trying to understand how Dumbledore has been feeling and what he has been thinking during events that we have only read Harry's reaction to.

I think you may be spot-on about Snape in this passage. I too assumed the Death Eater "who had left for ever" was Severus, but I hadn't thought of the information he could give Voldemort, and you've convinced me of what you suggested.

I'm not completely convinced by the 'Pearl Harbour' scenario, but I haven't got any better suggestions as to why the Portkey was a 'round trip', so your idea certainly seems plausible. hilere's suggestion of it demonstrating Harry's immense power is a good idea too.

Of course, it was entirely necessary in terms of the story that Harry got back to Hogwarts, so possibly Jo didn't think about the logistics of that too much - Portkeys don't always work in the same way, they work as befits the situation Jo needs them for! Portkeys can leave at a set time (to get to the Quidditch World Cup), as soon as someone touches them (the Triwizard Cup) or when the person who made it sends it (the statue's head at the end of OoTP leaves after Dumbledore says "Ready Harry? One, two, three..." or something along those lines)!


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Old March 18th, 2007, 2:18 am
sfgilgalad  Undisclosed.gif sfgilgalad is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

I'm disapointed... Where's Dumbledore's plan? This mainly a description of what happens in black and white in the book... D'you think his plan at this time was "wait and see"?
The more it goes, the more i make links with Xmen... Even if I don't want to


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Old March 18th, 2007, 6:18 am
hoosierman144  Undisclosed.gif hoosierman144 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

Great thoughts, i do believe DD has been planning all along. Harry's trip into the pensieve was no accident. DD had a suspision that Crouch Jr might be behind it but no evidence whatsoever other than the third person in Harry's dream. I believe if Sirius new of Harry's dream he would have shared it with DD. After the pensieve harry confirms his suspicions and DD begins to form his plan for taking control back from LV. Up untill this point DD didnt have a key peice of information, Crouch Jr. Now he has all the facts and most likely figures out what is going on.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 7:00 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

I have a different hypothesis about the "round-trip Portkey." I assume that it was round-trip in order to send Harry's body back after Voldemort killed him.

This would explain why Voldemort wanted Harry to be entered into the Triwizard tournament. If Voldemort's only plan was to use Harry's blood to be reborn, then he could have had the imposter Moody give Harry a Portkey anytime during the school year (e.g., the imposter Moody could have made Harry's toothbrush into a Portkey). However, if Harry had disappeared (or had shown up dead) while doing his daily activities at Hogwarts, it would be clear that foul play had taken place. Dumbledore would have known that Voldemort was back.

However, I believe that Voldemort wanted Harry to be in the Triwizard tournament because Voldemort's plan was to murder Harry in the graveyard, then send Harry's dead body back to Hogwarts. Everyone would have assumed that Harry had died in the maze (after all, in previous years, Triwizard champions had died during the contest). If Harry's death looked like an accident, then Dumbledore would not know that Voldemort was back. Even though Dumbledore would have been suspicious, he would have no proof and no way to convince the rest of the wizarding world. The "round-trip Portkey" would have given Voldemort the advantage of keeping his return to his body a secret from Dumbledore and the wider wizarding world.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 7:02 am
plainlypotter  Female.gif plainlypotter is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

hoosierman144

I think you have harry's dream in the movie version f GoF confused with the book version of the dream. In the book Harry sees wormtail and voldemort and frank bryce - no barty crouch jr. There is a mention of voldemort's faithful deatheater but he is not seen nor is his name mentioned - it was added to give the reader the impression that the faithful deatheater at hogwarts was snape not crouch.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 11:07 am
Dania  Female.gif Dania is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

Nice editorial, I really love this series!

As for what Dumbledore knew or planned during the year, I wonder if the movie gives the answer. In the movie they obviously felt a need to explain why Dumbledore lets Harry compete at all, an explanation that's missing in the book version (the only explanation in the book is: that's the rules. But Dumbledore usually don't mind breaking ministry rules). In the movie there's a conversation between McGonnagal, Snape and Dumbledore where Mcgonnagal asks Dumbledore not to let Harry compete in the tournament while Snape suggests to let him compete, and thus act as bait so they can figure out who's behind and what's really going on. Dumbledore agrees with Snape. If, as the author of the editorial suggests, Dumbledore does not know what's going on, maybe he decides to let Harry participate to see if the person who put his name in the Goblet will somehow reveal himself.

Kip, I agree with you: Voldemort wanted to keep his return a secret, that's why Harry had to be in the tournament at all - Voldemort needed something to cover up Harry's death so that no one would guess that he'd returned to power - and that's why the portkey worked both ways. Dumbledore also thinks it was Voldemort's intent to keep his return a secret, he states this somewhere, in either book 4 or 5.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 4:00 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

Kip, I tend to agree with you too. But the sudden DE attack suggested by the author would be incredibly demoralizing for the non-DE wizarding population of Britain and would probably have killed several Order members. Fudge's refusal to accept that V was back may not have been all that important to V; after all, he wrought much havoc during Vold War I when everyone knew it was him (and we see in the first chapter of HBP that he's wreaking much havoc again). I'd be interested in knowing why Voldemort set up such a convoluted, time-consuming plan for getting Harry to the graveyard. You'd think he'd want his body back as soon as possible. Fake Moody could have made ANYTHING into a Portkey at any time and gotten Harry to touch it. If V was planning a high-violence surprise attack at the Third Task, that might explain it.

Since we know now that Dumbledore knows the DADA position is cursed, why would he put Moody in it? Quirrell died and Lockhart lost his memory. Did he figure that Moody could deal with it?

PlainlyPotter, I do wonder a bit about Dumbledore's carelessness with his staff if he didn't know that Moody was Fake. It's been suggested that he set the Quirrell thing up on purpose as a trap for V (which worked) and if that wasn't the case this time, maybe the old boy was losing his touch. If he knew Moody was Crouch Jr., he surely was risking Harry--I doubt that he'd've predicted that Moody would wait until the end of the year to make his move. But it sounds like he didn't know Moody wasn't Moody until he took Harry from Dumbledore at the end of the Third Task.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 6:24 pm
plainlypotter  Female.gif plainlypotter is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

shewoman -

even if Dumbledore didn't know that moody was barty crouch jr ( and there really is no reason to know that Moody was taken over by a particular person , he could just as likely been wormtail or any other death eater) I think he knew and trusted all the other teachers even if they were not necessarily in the Order. So by a process of elimination that left Moody. As for risking Harry's life by letting him have so much contact with Harry - I think that Dumbledore knew that whoever the culprit was there was no chance of Harry's life being in danger prior to Harry getting together with Voldemort,whether at the end of the third task or any of the others. As I suggested earlier- Harry may have completed the prophesy just by having his blood taken, and although it makes dumbledore's treatment of harry's life appear rather cavalier, harry is afterall only one person rather than a whole society. Given what we know of harry from previous books I think harry would have agreed as well


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Old March 18th, 2007, 6:41 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

Dumbledore is not all that committed to Divination; I don't know that he'd blithely accept the idea that no one but Voldemort can kill Harry--at least, not enough for him to want Harry to hang around with someone Dumbledore KNOWS to be working for Voldemort.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 6:50 pm
Neville27  Undisclosed.gif Neville27 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

I love the author's idea of looking at the series from Dumbledore's point of view. Many of these ideas are certainly new for me.

I really disagree about the movie Dumbledore. I can't believe that it made the movie like that, that no one said, "Wait, that's not how Dumbledore acts." It doesn't matter what Dumbledore was thinking or feeling. In the book, he calmly asked Harry if he put his name in the goblet. The movie has Dumbledore angrily asking him, while roughing him up a bit. Totally out of character. It was as surprising as if Snape told Harry "Good Job!" at the end of a potions lesson.

I just feel that Dumbledore either doesn't know as much as we think, or he gambles with Harry a lot. I know Harry was bound to do the Tournament, from the sounds of things, perhaps like the Unbreakable Vow? But did he have to do his best? Could they have found easier tasks, or some way around this? It would seem a terrible waste to lose Harry to a dragon, when Dumbledore knows he's supposed to bring the end to Voldemort. And wouldn't Voldemort be angry if Harry was killed against the dragon, never getting him to the graveyard.

I just don't think Jo has given us enough pieces to solve the puzzle. With thousands of people scouring her books, someone would solve it if she gave too many clues. I love this idea of looking at the story through Dumbledore's point of view, but I think his plans are one of the great mysteries of the series.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 8:23 pm
plainlypotter  Female.gif plainlypotter is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman View Post
Dumbledore is not all that committed to Divination; I don't know that he'd blithely accept the idea that no one but Voldemort can kill Harry--at least, not enough for him to want Harry to hang around with someone Dumbledore KNOWS to be working for Voldemort.
I guess I missed my point - what I was trying to say was that Voldemort didn't want to have harry killed by the fake moody before he had obtained Harry's blood b/c he felt that the blood would give him additional strength having nothing to do with the prophesy. Once he had the blood then anyone could kill harry for all he cared which is why Dumbledore was concerned about harry when he returned from the graveyard and not before,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neville27 View Post
I love the author's idea of looking at the series from Dumbledore's point of view. Many of these ideas are certainly new for me.

I really disagree about the movie Dumbledore. I can't believe that it made the movie like that, that no one said, "Wait, that's not how Dumbledore acts." It doesn't matter what Dumbledore was thinking or feeling. In the book, he calmly asked Harry if he put his name in the goblet. The movie has Dumbledore angrily asking him, while roughing him up a bit. Totally out of character. It was as surprising as if Snape told Harry "Good Job!" at the end of a potions lesson.

I just feel that Dumbledore either doesn't know as much as we think, or he gambles with Harry a lot. I know Harry was bound to do the Tournament, from the sounds of things, perhaps like the Unbreakable Vow? But did he have to do his best? Could they have found easier tasks, or some way around this? It would seem a terrible waste to lose Harry to a dragon, when Dumbledore knows he's supposed to bring the end to Voldemort. And wouldn't Voldemort be angry if Harry was killed against the dragon, never getting him to the graveyard.

I just don't think Jo has given us enough pieces to solve the puzzle. With thousands of people scouring her books, someone would solve it if she gave too many clues. I love this idea of looking at the story through Dumbledore's point of view, but I think his plans are one of the great mysteries of the series.


I agree with you about Dumbledore in the movie, but not so much with Dumbledore's gambling with harry's life. I think both in the books and in the movie harry was being protected, both by Dumbledore and Moody albeit for different reasons. I think Dumbledore protected all the students participating in the three tasks, the dragons he had the dragonkeepers ready to stun the dragon if things got out of hand, in the lake he had the merepeople and the giant squid ready to help ( or else how would fleur have gotten away from the the grindeylow - forgive the spelling don't have the book handy) and of course the teachers were patrolling during the last task. As for Voldemort, his faithful deatheater was insuring that Harry would survive the tasks b/c he needed to insure that Harry would get to the graveyard as per Voldemort's orders. Of course once Voldemort had his body back with what he thought was additional protection there was no need for harry anymore so at that point harry was really in trouble for the first time.


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Old March 19th, 2007, 3:09 am
Andromeda_T  Female.gif Andromeda_T is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

That's another interesting idea about the Portkey being a 'round-trip' so Harry's body could be returned to Hogwarts. I have one query about it though - how could an inanimate corpse hold on to the Cup by itself?


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"Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said, thunderstruck.
"It certainly seems so." said Dumbledore calmly, "Not something he intended to do, I'm sure..." (CoS, in McGonagall's office in the last chapter) hmmmm...
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Old March 19th, 2007, 5:45 am
plainlypotter  Female.gif plainlypotter is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

considering that it only took a touch at the beginning of GoF for the weasleys and harry and hermione to use the portkey all it would take was throwing the body on the portkey for it to work


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Old March 20th, 2007, 5:38 am
Phil_Stone  Undisclosed.gif Phil_Stone is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Five

On th etwo way port key- my first thoght was that perhaps this was Wormtail paying Harry back his lifedebt. But the port key was most likely created by Crouch/Moody, so the question would then be why would he do that.

I think Plainly is right that Voldemort would want the body of Harry returned to the competition to protect his secret. If the Deatheaters actually launched an attach using the return trip, they would presumably use it again to leave. That might give away that it was a port key, but it would also confirm the Deatheaters had killed Harry, rather than the Maze, and keep the portkey out of Dumbledore's hands. Of course, since the Deatheaters at the World Cup had not implied Voldemort's return, their appearing at the TRi-Wizard would not necsessarily give him away.

It might come down to ego. Would Voldemort want the world to know he had destroyed Harry Potter? Could he swallow that the Maze, or the Deatheaters would take the credit? Did he even try to kill Harry in a manner appropriate to the Maze? Would the AK he seems to be employing be the best way to conceal his own hand? I would not think so. Was the bewitched Krum using Unforgivables?


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