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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six



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  #1  
Old March 18th, 2007, 5:56 am
more2live4  Female.gif more2live4 is offline
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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

This is to discuss Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six by Steve Connolly.


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  #2  
Old March 18th, 2007, 6:52 am
Hinoema  Female.gif Hinoema is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

Quote:
His plan to use the prophecy as a decoy worked perfectly...
I see no such plan. I admire the effort put into this, but I see an inaccurate premise and far too much assumption.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 7:47 am
hpalwaysn4ever  Undisclosed.gif hpalwaysn4ever is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

I like your take on the events of ootp. I really like your idea that everyone had to be careful of what they said around Harry because Voldemort could hear it. It makes sense that Lupin & Sirius called the prophecy a "weapon". I could never understand that until now, so thanks for that. I can't wait for your last editorial. You had done a good job on all of them so far.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 7:49 am
hoosierman144  Undisclosed.gif hoosierman144 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

I am curious as to when LV found out there was more to the prophecy and from whom. If Severus had told him 13 yrs previous that there was more wouldnt it have been foolish to act without knowing all the facts. Would it have not been much easier to get the prophecy back them before attacking the Potters. I believe that LV had no idea that there was more at that time.
This information was given to him for the purpose of luring him into the Ministry, maybe just to prove he's back, maybe more. DD has retaken control of matters. LV may have suspected a trap thus his DE being at the ministry to do the job. He only arrives after they fail and DD accomplishes a small, maybe large part of his plan.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 12:33 pm
Dania  Female.gif Dania is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

Excellent! I never really thought about that the whole protecting the prophecy-thing could be a trap, but it makes perfectly sense. Though, even if it Dumbledore wouldn't see it as extremely important that Voldemort never hears the rest of the prophecy I still think he'd prefer it, if Voldemort did not. I think there's a reason why JKR made sure that no one, especially the Death Eaters, didn't hear any part of the prophecy at the Ministry. I think that it'll be important in their final confrontation that only Harry knows the prophecy in full.

One thing that I was surprised you didn't adress was Dumbledore's huge mistake that ended up costing Sirius his life and easily could have gotten several of our favourite students killed too: Dumbledore admits himself at the end of the book that he should have told Harry about the prophecy way earlier so that Harry would have known that he should stay away from the Department of Mysteries. It's a fatal mistake and so very important to the plot - and, by the way, it's also in this conversation that Dumbledore says he had a big plan all along and the one big mistake he had made was loving Harry too much. For a series of editorials about Dumbledore's masterplan I find it odd that this is not adressed.


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  #6  
Old March 18th, 2007, 1:13 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

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Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
I see no such plan. I admire the effort put into this, but I see an inaccurate premise and far too much assumption.
how?Voldy wants to know what's in the rest of the prophesy, so he spends his time trying to get it.


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  #7  
Old March 18th, 2007, 5:16 pm
TKoko  Male.gif TKoko is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

Um I don't think the plan went perfect. Sirius died and that was a huge blow to Harry. But the decoy part makes sense but I have a feeling that some of the order members might have been not satisfied doing it especciallly when Arthur was attacked. Good one though keep them comming.
Cheers


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Old March 18th, 2007, 5:17 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

Yes, Dania; Dumbledore certainly screwed up by not trusting Harry with the knowledge of the Prophecy. I have a hard time seeing why; by this time Harry and Voldemort have met three times and Harry has come out in better shape than Voldemort each time. In their last encounter Voldemort has made clear that his goal is to kill Harry. So at this point it isn't that much of a surprise to Harry that it's a kill-or-be-killed situation; hearing it does catch him off-guard, but he deals with it.

The fact that members of the Order are on guard duty at the Ministry (and one gets arrested and one gets Naginichomped) does suggest that either 1) they think there's something really important there, or 2) they want Voldemort to think there is.

I think that if Voldemort was so hot to hear the whole Prophecy, it would have been before the attack on Godric's Hollow. That was the crucial time. Why is it so important to him now? Because Harry always gets away from him? I find myself wondering if there was more to the Prophecy than we know. It's one of very few Pensieve scenes (3 in the whole series, I think) in which we don't enter the memory but rather see one figure emerge from the bowl. It's likely that that was to prevent us and Harry from seeing Snape as the spy (although was anyone surprised by that revelation?), but it does make me wonder if there was something we didn't hear. If Voldemort had a hint of that (he does have spies in the Ministry), that might explain his eagerness to get it. Yes, I know it's unthinkable that JKR might withhold important information from us, but anything's possible!


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Old March 18th, 2007, 10:07 pm
momo414  Undisclosed.gif momo414 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

You make a good point about the prophecy after the first half it doesn't say anything usefull. But I can so see Dumbledore using it as bait. Very interesting theories.


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  #10  
Old March 19th, 2007, 12:23 am
Irregardless  Undisclosed.gif Irregardless is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

Something like this has to be true, or else Dumbledore's actions make no sense.

If Dumbledore only wanted to protect the Prophecy from Voldemort, he could have sent Harry to get it, and then destroyed it. Since Dumbledore knew the Prophecy, he didn't need the spun-glass ball.

Dumbledore didn't reveal the Prophecy to Harry because, given the mental link with Voldemort, that would have given it away. But he did reveal it once the Prophecy was destroyed, and was no longer useful as bait. If he was trying to stop Voldemort from learning the whole Prophecy, he wouldn't have told Harry even then. He can't tell <i>anyone</i> who is not an Occlumens -- unless he doesn't really care whether Voldemort can find out.

Give me another explanation.


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Old March 19th, 2007, 12:27 am
DeathlyHabitue  Undisclosed.gif DeathlyHabitue is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

This editorial and joint discussion has made it clear to me that there are three possible reasons why Dumbledore didn't want Voldemort to get the Prophecy.

1) The Prophecy really reveals more then we realize and we are simply not interrupting it correctly.

2) The master plan theory is right, and Dumbledore was simply pretending that the prophecy was important to keep Voldemort preoccupied

3) Harry didn't hear all the Prophecy.

Most editorials tend to bet on reason 1). So this is a nice change.


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  #12  
Old March 19th, 2007, 5:38 am
Chas  Male.gif Chas is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

Did Snape hear the first part of the prophecy, (1) and (2) as marked in Steve's editorial, or did he actually arrive late and hear just the last part, (5) in Steve's editorial, before he was caught?

I ask this because the last part is nearly the same as the first, at least as to the key information that would lead Voldemort to action. And Trelawney's description in book 6 says that the bartender brought Snape into the room at the end of a commotion (US hardcover, page 545). Many people have speculated about how the second part of the prophecy could even have been given if Snape had been brought into the room after just the first part. Here could be the answer. Snape missed the whole prophecy then arrived as Trelawney started to repeat it and only was able to give the first part before he was caught.


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Old March 19th, 2007, 10:32 am
hilere  Female.gif hilere is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

Much, much, much, much, MUCH better! This is the sort of thing I've been waiting for in this septology of editorials.

...I'm not saying I think you're right... but I don't think anyone's right when it comes to HP other than JKR herself.

Quote:
I like your take on the events of ootp. I really like your idea that everyone had to be careful of what they said around Harry because Voldemort could hear it. It makes sense that Lupin & Sirius called the prophecy a "weapon". I could never understand that until now, so thanks for that.
I agree completely


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  #14  
Old March 20th, 2007, 2:52 am
Jewal  Female.gif Jewal is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

I Love your essays! Thank you!

I agree with you, the first time I read OOTP I didn't really like it, it was so negative and different from all the others. Now, after reading it several times it is my favorite of all the books.

I felt the same way about HBP after I read it also but now after hearing it several times I like it much better.

Again,

Thanks for all your hard work on this series! I have been looking forward to each new installment.

I have to say... too bad it is limited to 7! Just like the books!

Jewal


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Old March 20th, 2007, 7:14 am
sfgilgalad  Undisclosed.gif sfgilgalad is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

I think that when I read OoTP I thought "At last !!!!"


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Old March 27th, 2007, 7:29 am
Phil_Stone  Undisclosed.gif Phil_Stone is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

It seems possible that if Voldemort was initially at all skeptical of the Prophacy, after Harry had escaped him several time it no doubt seemed legitimate to him. This would explain why he would go to the trouble of trying to learn the contents of the prophacy now rather than before Goderic's Hollow. Of course, for Dumbledore to have used it as bait at Goderic's Hollow, he had to think it would be irresistable for Voldemort even then.

Presumably the reason the Ministry keeps a copy of the Prophacy in the way it does is because the subjects have some right to know it's contents, at least as adults. Dumbledore might have left it alone because he wanted to increase the chance that HArry would know its contents some day. That would not preclude substituting a fake, if he could manage it.

How does Dumbledore know the state of Harry's mind? We know that Dumbledore is an accomplished Legilumens. And we know that Dumbledore can be invisible. Would it be surprising if he checked on HArry from time to time during the summer? Since the protections on Privet Drive could not keep Dobby away, is it possible that Dumbledore could have the chance to read Harry's dreams? Certainly he might have once Harry was back at Hogwarts.


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Old March 27th, 2007, 2:11 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

Voldemort took the Prophecy seriously enough to recruit a spy among the Potters' friends and to go to their home to kill them before Harry ever escaped from him. His speech to the Death-Eaters after his return in GoF (and his insistence on using Harry's blood in Peter's potion) makes clear that at that point he considers Harry to be a potential danger and wants to be sure he is the one who kills him.

Dobby meant Harry no home, so the protections on Privet Drive wouldn't react to him.


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WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.
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Old March 27th, 2007, 11:58 pm
fluffy77  Male.gif fluffy77 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

I just realized that dumbledor lied!

(1) The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... (2) Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ...(3) And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... (4) And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives ... (5) The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...
(page 841, OOTP, U.S. paperback)

He told Harry in OOTP that someone busted in on them and only heard the first part. But saying that is key. Seeing how the timeline of events according to old batty bugeye (Trelweny)... I forgot my book and I cant spell anyways. She says that towards the end of it Snape busted through the door. Since the first part is the same as the last part Dumbledor lied sorta and said the only heard the first part of it.

Yeah... then I started thinking that part 4 really has more to do with finding the horcrux based off of that awesome theory that you would have needed to find the cup to use in the basin to get the necklace. So thus meaning to destroy (killing/ releasing) part of the soul you would need use one to get the other. The soul might be part of a living entity but it can not live/ will not live until the horcux before it dies.

Dumbledor said it best about that harry would hunt down Tom Riddle regardless of a prophacy or not its just what he would do. Ooo... I hope I am close!


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Old March 31st, 2007, 7:44 pm
titch3  Female.gif titch3 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

I have very much enjoyed this series of editorials and the author has suggested some brilliant theories that never even crossed my mind!

But,

i do have one issue- the idea that harry/his scar is a horcrux. For him to be a horcrux or for his scar to be, he must have been made a horcrux with one of his parents deaths. The issue is why would Voldemort make Harry a Horcrux if he was intending to kill him?? It would be a downright stupid thing to do because Voldemort would then destory a part of his own soul and actually help any one who wanted to kill him as he would be one step closer to mortality not death. Also if Harry was a Horcrux why would keep trying to do him in? Again, he would actually be destroying his own soul fragement if harry is a horcrux and he kills him.


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  #20  
Old April 1st, 2007, 1:42 am
sfgilgalad  Undisclosed.gif sfgilgalad is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Six

the thing is that he (more probably) wanted to make an horcruxe with an artifact, through Harry's death and Lily's pain, not making Harry a horcruxe. But he got confused with the recipe, made a horcruxe with Harry, lost the artifact, and killed himself.


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