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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven



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  #1  
Old March 18th, 2007, 8:15 am
more2live4  Female.gif more2live4 is offline
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Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

This is to discuss Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven by Steve Connolly.


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  #2  
Old March 18th, 2007, 10:16 am
themon3000  Male.gif themon3000 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

soooo beautiful!!! :'(

oooh, first post.

oooh, first post.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 11:05 am
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

Yeah!!!!


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Old March 18th, 2007, 11:26 am
outsidessence outsidessence is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

Wow that was the best of the series!! Bang on!


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Old March 18th, 2007, 1:40 pm
Dania  Female.gif Dania is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

Thanks a lot for this series, it sums up so many things so perfectly!

Since I read HBP I've been convinced that Snape's on Dumbledore's side and that Dumbledore was prepared to ask Snape to kill him if it was necessary to save Draco and protect Snape's cover, not to mention his life. I only disagree with your suggested time-line. In the editorial it's suggested that Dumbledore plans to die from the very beginning and that he before any of the events of book 6 unfolds asks Snape to kill him. I believe that Dumbledore plans whatever he plans a little later, as a reaction to events. I think it's more like this:

Voldemort decides to murder Dumbledore and assigns Draco the task out of anger at Lucius - Dumbledore finds the ring, destroys the horcrux and is saved by Snape - Narcissa and Bellatrix go to Snape - Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow, thinking it'll only be to protect Draco, but, as he must protect his cover, cannot refuse when the 'do it yourself it Draco fails'-part is added - Snape alerts Dumbledore to Draco's plans and his Unbreakable Vow, and Dumbledore tells him that the most important is to, first, protect Harry, second, protect Draco, and, third, protect Snape, and that Snape therefore must be prepared to kill Dumbledore if the events unfold in a way that makes it necessary - Dumbledore decides that now is the time to tell Harry about Tom Riddle, horcruxes, etc. Therefore, he hires Slughorn as potions teacher and makes Snape the DADA teacher - Harry & co. goes to Diagon Alley and figures out that Draco's up to something - At Slughorn's Christmas party, Harry learns about Snape's Unbreakable Vow and that it's somehow connected to what Draco's up to - Harry alerts Dumbledore who's not at all surprised and seems to have known about Snape's Vow all along - Hagrid overhears Dumbledore and Snape in the forrest, where, in my opinion, Dumbledore is repeating his order to Snape that if it's necessary in order to protect Harry, Draco and/or Snape himself, Snape must kill Dumbledore - Harry learns that Snape is kind of responsible for his parents' death, being the one who heard the first part of the prophecy and told Voldemort - Dumbledore once again repeats that he trusts Snape but he does not give Harry the real reason for his trust - the events in the cave takes place, and Harry and Dumbledore returns to Hogwarts, Dumbledore greatly weakened - At the tower, Dumbledore freezes Harry and Draco appears, wondering if there's another person there but Dumbledore, but is diverted by Dumbledore who's dragging out the situation by making Draco talk. Dumbledore states that he knew all year that Draco's been planning to kill him - As Draco's lowering his wand, and thus is prevented by Dumbledore's talking to become a murderer, the other Death Eaters show up, and then Snape apears, as it says in the text 'his wand clutched in his hand as his black eyes swept the scene'. Snape, as we know, has an ability to detect Harry even when he's invisible, and Draco almost guessed that Harry was there, so Snape guesses it, I'm sure - Dumbledore pleades with Snape, in my opinion reminding him of his obligation to protect Harry, Draco and himself - Snape kills Dumbledore, and thus prevents that Draco is pressed by the present Death Eaters to become a murderer and saves his own life by fulfilling his Vow - Snape makes sure that Draco and the Death Eaters get away from the tower, thus saving Harry before the Death Eaters figure out that he's there, and gets them out of Hogwarts, thus making sure that no more students or order members are hurt - Harry follows, and Snape takes the time to block a spell aimed at Harry from a Death Eater and educate Harry in wand duelling before he flees.

So, in conclusion, Dumbledore didn't exactly plan to die but he prepared for the possibility when he learned that he'd been targeted by Voldemort and that Snape had vowed to kill him.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 4:10 pm
TheColorGreen  Female.gif TheColorGreen is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

Very well-written and researched; I think that this is very possible. It would be nice if JKR did intend what you said, since I also think Snape is loyal to Dumbledore. And you're right -- we do only see Harry's POV, and that limits us readers a lot.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 4:11 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

I just now read this whole series of editorials...WOW!! So brilliantly crafted and absolutely plausible. It is so very true that what is hidden between the lines in all of the Harry Potter story from the very first sentence to the very end of the (so far) sixth book is essential to plot and the ultimate outcome. Dumbledore is so intricate a part of this plot but, equally so seemingly absent or out of range at times. These editorials so eloquently pull together all the niggling whisps of thought and possibility that fluttered just out of reach in my mind. I can only say thank you for doing it in so rich a fashion.

Now I am salivating more than ever for Book 7!!


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Old March 18th, 2007, 4:57 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

I hate to be a downer but I don't see much new or original in this series of editorials. (Although you DO wite very well. I'm not trying to be mean or anything) By your account DD master plan was to stall Voldy indefinately. I don't think you needed this many editorials to point that out. The last editorial is basically a "Snape is good" editorial vs an account of what DD was planning. For the record I believe that DD knew that he COULD die in the search and destruction of horcruxes, but I don't think he ever WANTED or felt like he should die just so that Harry could stand on his own. And I certainly don't think he would EVER ask someone to kill him, just as I would never believe that DD would make someone take an UV.

But you did raise a good point (although you really didn't take it far enough) about the prophecy in OOtP. There is nothing in the prophecy that Voldemort doesn't already know.
Now this whole prophecy business is weird as is Snapes involvement. We know through DD that Snape only gave Voldy half the prophecy. We also know that DD is the only person who knows the full contents of that prophecy. This indicates to me that Snape STILL doesn't know the entire prophecy. What I wonder is did Snape know at the time that he only heard half the prophecy? I ask this because if Voldemort knew it was only half a prophecy why didn't he attempt to hear the whole thing before attacking the Potters? Voldy is known to be rash but not stupid. If he didn't know then that it was only half a prophecy, then why is he so interested in OOtP to hear the prophecy at all? Did he find out in the intervening years that it was only half a prophecy? And if that was the case wouldn't that put Snapes loyalty in question? Then of course, is the whole thing with Trelawney implying that Aberforth and Snape burst in AFTER the whole prophecy was said. Which is another can of worms all together.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 5:19 pm
TKoko  Male.gif TKoko is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

ITs been a pleasure reading these. NIce Job


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Old March 18th, 2007, 5:32 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

I have to disagree with one of the basic premises here: I DON'T think Voldemort's goal for the year was the death of Dumbledore. I have two reasons: 1) in Goblet he warns his DEs off of Harry because his pride demands that he kill him himself (and Snape reminds the DEs of this as he escapes from Hogwarts); I think he'd feel that way about Dumbledore as well. Remember in Spinners End when Narcissa, in referring to Draco's task, says "He won't succeed! How can he, when the Dark Lord himself--" Yes. Quite. If anyone other than Voldemort takes Dumbledore out, Voldemort's status will be diminished. I'm not sure Snape's V's golden boy at the moment for that reason. 2) If Voldemort REALLY wanted "the only one he ever feared" dead, I don't think he'd send a sixteen-year-old student who, as far as we know, has NEVER been in a battle. Snape, Narcissa, Bellatrix, and Dumbledore all agree that the point of this escapade is to punish the Malfoys--and that depends on Draco FAILING.

I also don't think that Snape knew what Draco's task was until he manipulated his guests into telling him. He does it very well and they don't notice it, but they say enough to make it clear what Draco's supposed to do. When Cissy says the line I quoted above, I realized what it was. Aside from teaching Sunday School and having tea with Gwyneth Paltrow, there's not that much V hasn't done.

I think John Granger's theory of "stoppered death" (a flashback to Snape's first Potions lecture, and not the only one in HPB) has a lot going for it. I think Snape kept the poison or whatever in Dumbledore's hand from attacking the rest of his body, but that "stopper" couldn't last forever. Dumbledore, Voldemort's enemy, would be the last person to deny his own mortality.


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Last edited by Shewoman; March 18th, 2007 at 7:45 pm.
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Old March 18th, 2007, 6:16 pm
hpalwaysn4ever  Undisclosed.gif hpalwaysn4ever is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

Another nicely written editorial. I just disagree with this: "So [Dumbledore] managed to get to the top of the Astronomy Tower, and he managed to prevent Harry from having any involvement in the scene. To be frank, he would probably have preferred if Harry had not seen any of it, but he didn’t have time to remove the boy completely."
I think Dumbledore wanted Harry to witness the scene, it was another part of the plan.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 6:58 pm
Hinoema  Female.gif Hinoema is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

I still haven't seen proof that such a Master Plan as what you attribute to Dumbledore ever existed, so... well done essays, but I can't see the premise as valid.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 7:16 pm
TKoko  Male.gif TKoko is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

Unbeleiveable! These editorials have just been awesome. I beleive in most if not all of the points in the Master Plan. How will Snape turn around and help Harry if noone trusts him. Harry will never trust him again except if something extrodinary happens. We'll see on July 21.
Cheers


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Old March 18th, 2007, 7:30 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

very well written, and you have some very interesting ideas.
one small remark: I believe that the idea to mend and use the vanishing cabinets wasn't Voldemort's, but Draco's. Draco came up with this plan as a means to kill Dumbledore after the incident with Montague in the previous schoolyear, and probably didn't tell voldemort what he was planning until he had succeeded in mending the broken cabinet.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 7:57 pm
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

it was okay, but did we really need the bit on the end about dumbledores death, and about how sorry we all our that he died?


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Old March 18th, 2007, 9:02 pm
bigbdm14 bigbdm14 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

I thought they essays were indeterminate, and not really original. However, I am curious as to why Dumbledore felt he had to die. Mr. Connolly makes it sound like Dumbledore just wanted to step aside for Harry, while this is important in the literary sense, I can't imagine anyone (especially the greatest wizard of all time) saying, "Well, I can't really do you anymore good, I think I need to die." If his argument is that he needed to die to protect Harry or Draco then fine and he might have seen it coming, but I doubt the reason was it was his time.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 10:00 pm
plainlypotter  Female.gif plainlypotter is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman View Post
I have to disagree with one of the basic premises here: I DON'T think Voldemort's goal for the year was the death of Dumbledore. I have two reasons: 1) in Goblet he warns his DEs off of Harry because his pride demands that he kill him himself (and Snape reminds the DEs of this as he escapes from Hogwarts); I think he'd feel that way about Dumbledore as well. Remember in Spinners End when Narcissa, in referring to Draco's task, says "He won't succeed! How can he, when the Dark Lord himself--" Yes. Quite. If anyone other than Voldemort takes Dumbledore out, Voldemort's status will be diminished. I'm not sure Snape's V's golden boy at the moment for that reason. 2) If Voldemort REALLY wanted "the only one he ever feared" dead, I don't think he'd send a sixteen-year-old student who, as far as we know, has NEVER been in a battle. Snape, Narcissa, Bellatrix, and Dumbledore all agree that the point of this escapade is to punish the Malfoys--and that depends on Draco FAILING.

I also don't think that Snape knew what Draco's task was until he manipulated his guests into telling him. He does it very well and they don't notice it, but they say enough to make it clear what Draco's supposed to do. When Cissy says the line I quoted above, I realized what it was. Aside from teaching Sunday School and having tea with Gwyneth Paltrow, there's not that much V hasn't done.

I think John Granger's theory of "stoppered death" (a flashback to Snape's first Potions lecture, and not the only one in HPB) has a lot going for it. I think Snape kept the poison or whatever in Dumbledore's hand from attacking the rest of his body, but that "stopper" couldn't last forever. Dumbledore, Voldemort's enemy, would be the last person to deny his own mortality.
you and I are on the same page here - from the first my impression was that Snape did not know what he was getting into when he agreed to the unbreakable vow. As for snape's being in trouble , I also have to agree, I would suspect that he will shortly be on V's hit list right up there with harry. But the question is who other than V could kill snape? And where will snape go now that he has failed V and the Order? I keep coming back to grimwald place. 1) b/c only those DD told can find it - so that let's out V & the deatheaters, and 2) b/c the order is not using grimwald place any longer for fear that somehow V knows where it is.

interesting reminder about snape's stoppering death quote from book one - hadn't really put that together with DD's hand.


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Old March 18th, 2007, 10:21 pm
thurmtim  Undisclosed.gif thurmtim is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

I agree with your outline to a degree, but the motivations and timeline you ascribe to Dumbledore in book 6 are faulty. Dumbledore did not plan to die to make room for Harry, he could have simply stepped back after preparing Harry and assumed the role of an Eminence Gris (Grey Eminence). More likely, he set up Snape to preserve his role as a mole AND to protect the school, whatever the cost. He was preparing Harry because Harry was approaching adulthood and would one day soon bo longer enjoy the safety of Hogwarts. With Voldemort's fixation on killing Harry to assuage his bruised ego concerning the events at Godric's Hollow, the boy needed some training and whether he liked it or not, he was going to be thrust in a central role in the war.

Now, Snape couldn't back out in the midst of making the Unbreakable Vow,could he? Bellatrix blindsided him with her little codicl, but to back out would destroy his role as a mole.Still unsure of the full nature of Draco's task, he reported these developments to his spymaster, Dumbledore. As events unfolded during the school year, it became clear that Snape had bitten off more than he could chew. His dangerous game of skullduggery had left him in the untenable position of having to choose between being hunted and killed by Voldemort, or the loathsome task of having to kill his friend/mentor Dumbledore to preserve his role, protect the school and save the war from being lost outright. This is when Snape had a moment of weakness and argued with Dumbledore in the forest about his role. Dumbledore understood fully well that they are in a war and they are soldiers. They must put their own needs aside for the overall goal of defeating Voldemort. No one life.. not Snape, not Dumbledore and in the end, not Harry's .. is more important than defeating thre evil that is Voldemort. None of them go ito this battle expecting or wanting to die, but they understand that if it is a choice between their own death and the failure to defeat Voldemort, Voldemort MUST be defeated.

Atop the Astronomy Tower, all these players came face to face with that choice. Dumbledore pleaded with Snape to do what was necessary to win the war, to kill him (he was dying from the potion anyway and it did not look like Snape would be able to save him in light of the present company atop the tower). With these shifting sands before them, Snape and Dumbledore knew that Snape's role as a mole was about to get much, much deeper. No longer could he be a double agent passing information directly to the Order.

In the immediate sense, he must get Draco away safely and get the Deatheaters out of the school before anyone else got hurt.

In the medium term, he no longer has the luxury of reporting directly to the Order and Albus Dumbledor his findings. I think we will see Snape play a more mysterious and dangerous role in passing information. Now they cannot know it is him passing the info or it will be misinterpreted or dismissed outright. (Is it possible that Aberforth has a role toplay in this?)

In the long term, Snape's overriding role is to be as close to Voldemort as he can for the final battle and to do what he can to sway the Order's fortunes to success, knowing that he must pick his spot carefully, as his first shot for the Order in battle will likely be his last (so it had better be good).

My favorite guess about this is a final scene where it all comes down to Harry versus Voldemort, Snape and Nagini. All the Horcruxes other than Nagini have been dispatched, but Harry faces a quandry. Who to attack? If he goes for Snape (who he loathes) he puts his personal vendetta ahead of his role in this war. If he attacks Nagini first, Voldemort will have a prime shot at Harry to kill him and ingnomiously end his mission. If he kills Voldemort, he still has failed as there is stil a Horcrux intact and he will not be defeated, just delayed once again. All options point to ultimate failure to defeat evil.

Snape is the only one in this scenario who can sever the Gordian knot. Seeing Harry hesitate, Snape kills Nagini. As a superb Occlumens he can ensure his thoughts are not detected by Voldemort prior to the deed. Enraged by this treachery and deceit, Voldemort turns and kills Snape, giving Harry his one shot to catch Voldemort vulnerable and momentarily focusing elsewhere. This is where the decisive blow from Harry occurs. Snape dies redeemed, but still mysterious. Nagini dies before Voldemort, making him "mortal" again. Harry dispatches Voldemort in a way that makes sense, given their difference in magical skills.


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Old March 19th, 2007, 12:52 am
sfgilgalad  Undisclosed.gif sfgilgalad is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

Nice, and it's true that generally, in the fantastic literature, the evil guy suffers from a treachery, that disturb him for a little moment, which allows the heroe to kill him. And even if JKR has a lot of imagination, she's kind of classical.


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Old March 19th, 2007, 12:54 am
DeathlyHabitue  Undisclosed.gif DeathlyHabitue is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Master Plan: Part Seven

Wow! Let me just say great editorial series, and really written well!

That being said, I think that the argument in support of Dumbledore wanting to die doesn't cut it. If he was intending to die I don't think it was just because he felt that Harry was never going to become independent enough to defeat Voldemort if he didn't snuff it.

Oh, and as for Snape, Dumbledore and "father figure" in the same sentence ...


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