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The Last Place He'll Think To Look



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  #1  
Old March 20th, 2007, 2:37 am
more2live4  Female.gif more2live4 is offline
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The Last Place He'll Think To Look

This is to discuss The Last Place He'll Think To Look by Maya.



Last edited by more2live4; March 20th, 2007 at 2:42 am.
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  #2  
Old March 20th, 2007, 3:24 am
IAmHermione  Female.gif IAmHermione is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

I like your theory of Voldemort having a kind of "chain reaction" of Horcruxes--using their powers in a sequence to obtain them all with little or no damage.


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Old March 20th, 2007, 3:37 am
DnlW  Undisclosed.gif DnlW is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

Amazing! I really liked the theory of the Hufflepuff's cup. I bet you're right.

I also liked the theory that you need one of the four fathers relics to get to the other one.

Very interesting.

I've said long ago that I thought a Horcrux is hidden in Godrics Hollow. I also think there is one on Riddle Sr.'s mansion and in Gringotts.


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Old March 20th, 2007, 3:52 am
Sherelle  Female.gif Sherelle is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

I really liked your insight about the way Dumbledore's hand was hurt: not by destroying the horcrux itself, but by defeating the curses protecting it. It seems very logical when compared to the CoS basilisk fang to destroy the diary.

Interesting editorial


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Old March 20th, 2007, 4:40 am
fuegosmuertos  Male.gif fuegosmuertos is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

Maya,

Your editorial style is uplifting, humorous, insightful, and KNOWLEDGEABLE! Thanks for writing such a good one.

All the best,
Miles
behs2007@gmail.com


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Old March 20th, 2007, 4:47 am
ColdIron  Male.gif ColdIron is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

I agree with the Horcrux premise completely. It makes sense, both in the symoblic level and on the plot level. I have always suspected that Godric's Hollow would be where the Horcrux plot really kicks in. In addition I always thought Godric Gryffindor would not be left out. I would not be surprised in the least of something very similar appears in DH. The order may change a bit, but Gryffindor first.


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Old March 20th, 2007, 6:11 am
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

I liked what you said about the Horcux just being the container for the evil bit of soul. The hard part is getting through all the defences placed around these objects. Then the container has to be opened (the ring was cracked, the diary stabbed) which will unleash the evil bit of soul that then has to be destroyed.


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Old March 20th, 2007, 7:01 am
kcdl kcdl is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

I agree completely on all points. Making the person have to get the Horcrux order right would be a brilliant way of doing it, the chances of getting order right would be low.

Brilliant article.


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Old March 20th, 2007, 8:02 am
plainlypotter  Female.gif plainlypotter is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

I too agree that this is a most interesting theory and would like to take it one step further - perhaps griffindore's sword was to be the last of Voldemort's original relics. You suggest that voldemort intended to use one relic to get the others, but what if he intended to take griffindore's sword from the potter house, but since he died died prior to achieving his goal of killing harry he never was able to take the sword therefore it was never made into a horcrux. Then Dumbledore came to Godric's hollow and took the sword. The sword was helpful in slaying the slytherin's basilisk using this train of thought ( do you think that the basilisk was a horcrux ? this would go along with your theory - the sword defeats the obstacle/horcrux basilisk and the basilisk fang destroys the diary horcrux , perhaps the harry and dumbledore have somehow found and destroyed the horcruxes in the wrong order, or perhaps we will see harry using griffindore's sword to defeat the obstacles. Query - do you think that griffindore's sword could have defeated the inferi and or broken the spell around what was supposed to be the locket? could the key to defeating all the obstacles be as simple as taking the sword along?


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Old March 20th, 2007, 9:36 am
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

I think your theory is valid and could indeed be right. However, I think the first place Harry might look for a Horcrux is Hogwarts itself. The ring and the locket were both originally hidden in places that Voldemort considered important to him and I think that Hogwarts might be another of these significant places.

Although it is possible an artifact may have been taken to Godric's Hollow I doubt it would still be there. It seems from the books that the site was picked over quite thoroughly after the house was destroyed so I think it likely any artifacts that were there would have been taken away for examination.


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Old March 20th, 2007, 12:50 pm
Lethe01  Male.gif Lethe01 is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

How about that, I thought of that too, about each Horcrux enabling Voldemort to retrieve the next... It would be quite interesting, except that...
Well, let's say it would be a great way to get the locket, with Hufflepuff's cup. But the locket's already out of the cave, and so we will never see the full "chain reaction"... I think that if Jo had an idea like that, she wouldn't have wrecked it by cutting it short. You know what I mean? It would have been a great revelation for Harry, and made his job easier, say for example towards the 3/4 of the book, he's still short of three horcruxes, and thinks:"Hey I could try to use this one to get that one" and so forth. That way the book keeps its suspense (will he get them? Will he?) without Jo having to worry about how the heck she'll make him find them all... Plus it would give her the first parts of the book to tie some of the loose ends...
I don't know if I made myself clear... I'm kinda hungover right now... But hey, great editorial anyway!
Lethe

Oups, forgot something... Sorry, all I wanted to say was that the example of the diary doesn't mean that all Horcruxes are simple vessels for Voldemort's soul. Harry destroyed it without it harming him, but when he made that diary and turned it into a Horcrux, Riddle wasn't half as powerful as when he made the other ones, he was still in school. Maybe he didn't think of adding extra protection to it, sort of a potentially lethal burglar alarm. Maybe he did that with the other ones. Plus, if Hufflepuf's Cup has all kinds of powers, you can bet that Slytherin's locket has some as well, and evil ones too. Same thing goes with the ring. I think the Peverells were a family descended from Slytherin, so they must have been very aware of the Dark Arts. So even though the diary wasn't "dangerous", as a simple object, the other Horcruxes might be!


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Last edited by Lethe01; March 20th, 2007 at 1:02 pm. Reason: Forgot something
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Old March 20th, 2007, 1:40 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

Well thought out and well written! I particularly enjoyed your "chapter headings."

I'm not sure that the object Voldemort intended to make into a Horcrux with Harry's murder is at Godric's Hollow. For one thing, as someone's already mentioned upthread, since the FC is brokern the Potters' house has quite likely been picked over; there's probably not much left there. There's also the fact that Riddle, even after he's become Voldemort, has quite an interest in Hogwarts itself.

But my main reason for thinking the object isn't at GH is that I think Voldemort would have not wanted to take it there. We don't know how much time can pass between tearing the soul by murder and making the torn soul piece into a Horcrux, but we've seen no reason to suppose it has to be done immediately. I think Voldemort took Peter with him the night he attacked the Potters and I don't think he'd've wanted Peter to see him create a Horcrux. He says in "The DEs" in GoF that his followers "knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death." So the DEs knew there was at least one Horcrux. But V doesn't trust his followers all that much (remember Karkaroff's testimony that only V knew everyone's name--and he handles Draco's task in HBP with the same sort of secrecy). I don't think he'd want a DE to know that a particular object was a Horcrux because he/she might be able to destroy it later--and if Peter was there when Voldemort created it, he'd know.


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Last edited by Shewoman; March 20th, 2007 at 1:45 pm.
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Old March 20th, 2007, 5:45 pm
mo1  Female.gif mo1 is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

A very interesting editorial. Thanks for making clear some things people might have overlook or forgotten, like the fact the curse that had damaged Dumbledore’s hand may not have been caused by the destruction of the horcrux and the fact there used to be a relic meant to be made into an horcrux with baby Harry’s death. It’s really useful at that point in time.

I particularly liked the idea of Hufflepuff’s cup being able to destroy the poison in a liquid. It sounds like a traditional use expected from a magical object.
But if there is a sequence to use properties of the founders’ relics to retrieve other ones, I would rather think it would be the other way around. Wouldn’t it sound more logical for Voldemort to use properties of objects he knows for sure he already has and are somewhere safe? Plus, think about it, if he used the next one property to access the previous, then that would mean he would have to already have found the next relic and discover its properties before he makes an horcrux (for instance he would have needed to have relic number 6 before he made horcrux number 5).
Plus, everything in the contempt he shows to youth in the Cave suggest Voldemort was already old when he made the locket an horcrux, or at least when he hid it in the Cave. And we know from his appearance that he had made at least one horcrux between his time in Borgin & Burke (when he already didn’t have the ring anymore) and the time he came to apply for the DADA job (in his early thirties). So it’s likely the Cup was made an horcrux before the Locket, and then the series (if it really exists) should be the previous horcrux can help to get the next.
Then, according to your brilliant theory of the shortcuts, we could have:
- The Ring being a way to access the Cup, maybe in the way certain medieval crested rings are sometimes represented being used as keys for some secret passageways?
- The Cup helping pass the potion and access the Locket (which by the way can probably be open thanks to Parseltongue; Slytherin was so original in the choice of his passwords…)
- The Locket allowing access to Ravenclaw’s relic
- Ravenclaw’s relic allowing to bypass the protections meant for Gryffindor’s relic and that might have become Nagini’s protections (doubtful for the later, but why not?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lethe01
Well, let's say it would be a great way to get the locket, with Hufflepuff's cup. But the locket's already out of the cave, and so we will never see the full "chain reaction"... I think that if Jo had an idea like that, she wouldn't have wrecked it by cutting it short.
I disagree. If you look at it the way I described just above, then it sounds Harry is in a kind of ideal situation. He has the Ring (I suppose Dumbledore will legate it to him), he as well as has the Locket (he just need to get it back from whichever thief has stolen it), so he has all he needs to get the two remaining horcrux-relics. Plus, ironically enough, we can go one step further and say he even has a Gryffindor’s relic (the Sword) that could help him to deal with either the snake (horcrux number 6) and/or the seven bit of Voldemort’s soul (Voldemort himself).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman
But my main reason for thinking the object isn't at GH is that I think Voldemort would have not wanted to take it there. We don't know how much time can pass between tearing the soul by murder and making the torn soul piece into a Horcrux, but we've seen no reason to suppose it has to be done immediately. I think Voldemort took Peter with him the night he attacked the Potters and I don't think he'd've wanted Peter to see him create a Horcrux
I agree Voldemort would not have wanted a witness of him making a horcrux, but he could always have planned to kill Peter afterwards, or he could have ordered him to stay in the lounge while he went after Lily upstairs.
Anyway, the real question is why would he have used Nagini as his sixth horcrux if he still had a relic safely hidden somewhere and if he didn’t know yet that his diary had been destroyed (i.e. if he didn’t know yet he was short of not only one but two of his six horcruxes goal)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bribe
Although it is possible an artifact may have been taken to Godric's Hollow I doubt it would still be there. It seems from the books that the site was picked over quite thoroughly after the house was destroyed so I think it likely any artifacts that were there would have been taken away for examination
I have thought about that as well, and I wonder if it could have anything to do with the two noticeable murders at the beginning of HBP.
Emmeline Vance, a member of the original Order of the Phoenix, was captured and killed by the Death Eaters. And around the same time, Amelia Bones, Head of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement was murdered at her home by Voldemort himself. Both of them could have known what have happened to evidence things that had been collected in Godric’s Hollow, and maybe Mrs Bones even had something in her custody. Maybe Voldemort got an additional relic from her place for his final horcrux.

However, that doesn’t mean Harry and Co. cannot find anything in Godric’s Hollow. They may find bits of things that would give them clues (for instance about what the sixth meant-to-be horcrux was and therefore whose founder the fifth was). If anything else, they can find a statue or a painting representing Godric Gryffindor with his sword and something else (a shield for example?), which would give them a clue about another possible relic. Or maybe some documents about the history of the founders. Or some personal items of Harry’s parents that can end up being useful (Marauders’ inventions, books or notes about particular kinds of magic,…). Not speaking about important information about why Voldemort wanted to spare Lily in the first place.


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Old March 20th, 2007, 7:08 pm
Andromeda_T  Female.gif Andromeda_T is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

These are all great ideas, but this is not new - there was an editorial posted in July 2006 that proposed the "one Horcrux holds the key to another" theory: http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/...t-maya03.shtml.

Still and all, it's a very clever theory, and certainly plausible - I do like it! I love theories that make me think.

I'm looking forward to reading this book now, I have to say (though I wish it wasn't so soon - only four months left to formulate theories! )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherelle View Post
I really liked your insight about the way Dumbledore's hand was hurt: not by destroying the horcrux itself, but by defeating the curses protecting it.
I agree - that's a very astute observation by the editorial's author!


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Old March 20th, 2007, 7:10 pm
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

Wow! I usually am very critical of the editorials here. However, this one is very well thought out and sticks to the canon quite well. I do have a couple of comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maya
And no, I’m not referring to theories based on R.A.B. ever knowing there was more to it than the locket or Dumbledore faking his own death so he can sneak around destroying Horcruxes.)
Ah! But we do not need for RAB to have any clue that there was more than one Horcrux. Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maya
It’s like that old saying: you always find what you’re searching for in the last place you think to look -- because then you've stopped looking for it.
RAB clearly learned a lot about Voldemort. He she might well have left information about multiple possible Horcrux hiding places. However, RAB would have quit looking after finding "the" Horcrux: and then assumed that the other places were "empty."

Why would Rowling do this? Because:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maya
Possible Shortcut #7: Destiny May Not Exist, but Authors Do
For the RAB exodus to be something other than gratuitous narrative and adventure, it has to advance the plot. That is, Harry has to be closer to Horcrux #4 at the end of it than he was at the outset. Rowling might do this one of two ways: one, simply have Harry learn of a 4th place and find the Cup or the Ravenclaw/Gryffindor relic (it will be the shiny thing behind the traps!); two, have Harry combine this information with Dumbledore's "notes" (memories, most probably: sorry folks, but portraits do not retain this much detail according to JKR!).

This would obviate the one piece of fan-fiction here: the idea that one Founder's Horcrux could somehow lead Harry to the others. Rowling is very good at putting her cards on the table in advance. The solution involves putting the cards in the right order, not introducing new cards. If Hufflepuff's Cup neutralized potions, then shouldn't we have some indication of this? Never have we read that Hufflepuff was a potion-brewing genius. Rowling would have left some hint of this: she always does!

This also is the key logical flaw here. For this scheme to work, Voldemort could not have hidden any of his Horcruxes until late. He needed all four relics first, right? However, he already had turned the Locket and Cup into Horcruxes 10 years after he got them (as demonstrated by the additional damage to his visage, which Dumbledore tells Harry was due to Voldemort maiming his own soul). It contradicts everything we are taught about Voldemort to think that he waited so long before hiding these things!

Moreover, Dumbledore is convinced that Voldemort did not find both a Ravenclaw and a Gryffindor relic. This is important: Dumbledore rarely is incorrect.

Besides, Voldemort had a much simpler way to get around his potion. Having made it, he almost certainly knew how to unmake it. If that was not possible, then there was an even easier solution: lift the spell forbiding the conjuring of water, or even simpler, bring his own water! Sure, this is simple: but it is not "easy" as nobody else would know to take such precautions. Of course, Dumbledore points to yet another solution: soone or later the Inferi would realize that they were not Lord Voldemort. It could well be that the Inferi were programmed to not harm Voldemort. Thus, he could have drank water from the lake as he drank the potion.


Finally, and as a bit of an aside, there is another reason why Voldemort might not be making any more Horcruxes. Remember the gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. Remember also that Dumbledore is sure that love trumps hate, and although making a Horcrux is a powerful act of hatred, Lily's sacrifice was a very powerful act of love. The Voldemort with Harry's blood in his veins might no longer be able to make Horcruxes. Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort was willing to risk losing the Diary because at that time Voldemort thought that he would be able to make more Horcruxes. That is his explanation for why Voldemort was so furious at Malfoy when Malfoy just carried out the original plan. Dumbledore also suggests that Voldemort made a Horcrux while Babymort. Connecting the dots, Dumbledore thinks (thought) that Volemort lost the ability to make more Horcruxes sometime after Babymort phase. The change from Babymort to Voldemort Classic induced a gleam of triumph. It's not a valid deduction, but it is a very simple explanation!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherelle View Post
I really liked your insight about the way Dumbledore's hand was hurt: not by destroying the horcrux itself, but by defeating the curses protecting it. It seems very logical when compared to the CoS basilisk fang to destroy the diary.
Given that Harry suffered no such damage when destroying the Diary, it necessarily followed that this was not a property of Horcruxes.


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Last edited by Wimsey; March 20th, 2007 at 7:13 pm.
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Old March 20th, 2007, 8:22 pm
more2live4  Female.gif more2live4 is offline
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

Editor's Note: This editorial was actually submitted before another by the same author, in which Shortcut #6 is morphed into a full fledged theory of its own. You may access that editorial here: The Keys to His Soul by Maya.


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Old March 20th, 2007, 8:31 pm
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

Thanks for the clarification.


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Old March 20th, 2007, 8:44 pm
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

Wimsey, great idea about the gleam of triumph! It does solve both the moment of victory we have yet to understand from Dumbledore and satisfactorily explains why V could not/did not make any more horcruxes.

Very well-written and enjoyable editorial! (I loved the chapter titles too, Shewoman!) I think the idea of the cup/locket may work, but I don't think the other 2 items were involved in the "linking" because of the factors Wimsey mentioned. However, the cup and locket were found together so I could consider a link between the two.

I wonder if Voldemort didn't find Gryffindor's sword and have it stashed away somewhere to make it the final horcrux with Harry's murder. Like Shewoman, I don't think he'd have it on him at GH unless he had to and I don't believe it is/was a horcrux. Yet, suspiciously, we don't see that sword in any memory of Dumbledore's office - only post-CoS - and Dumbledore told Harry that "only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat" - he didn't mention it was summoned from his own office. It could be that V knows he no longer has that item (because he checked his stash) and so chose Nagini? But, I'm not sure how/when he would have checked... as a vapor? as the ugly baby-version? Well, I was trying to work Gryffindor's sword in somehow and this is the best I've got!

I do think there will be shortcuts, as you say, and I like the parallel you draw between Hermione's intellect and Ron's loyalty and the items from Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw.


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Old March 20th, 2007, 9:08 pm
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

Quote:
Originally Posted by justaHPfan View Post
Wimsey, great idea about the gleam of triumph! It does solve both the moment of victory we have yet to understand from Dumbledore and satisfactorily explains why V could not/did not make any more horcruxes.
Thanks! Unfortunately, I did not think of it in time to include it our "what will happen in DH?" survey. C'es le vie.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by justaHPfan View Post
Dumbledore told Harry that "only a true Gryffindor could have pulled that out of the hat" - he didn't mention it was summoned from his own office. It could be that V knows he no longer has that item (because he checked his stash) and so chose Nagini? But, I'm not sure how/when he would have checked... as a vapor? as the ugly baby-version? Well, I was trying to work Gryffindor's sword in somehow and this is the best I've got!
This is a good point that is often overlooked. People often suggest that Voldemort snuck the soul fragment into the sword while in Dippet's/Dumbledore's office. However, the two times that we see Voldemort there in the past, Harry fails to note the sword. That does not guarantee that the sword was not there: but the sword not being there would guarantee what Hary saw!

Quote:
Originally Posted by justaHPfan View Post
I do think there will be shortcuts, as you say, and I like the parallel you draw between Hermione's intellect and Ron's loyalty and the items from Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw.
Poor Hermione: why doesn't she ever get credit for loyalty?! In truth, she's been slightly more loyal to Harry than Ron has been.


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Old March 20th, 2007, 10:54 pm
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Re: The Last Place He'll Think To Look

Random question though, if the sword was/is a horcrux wouldn't it have been distroyed when Harry stuck it into the basalisk? See what basalisk poison did to the diary....just a thought.


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