Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > MuggleNet Editorials > General Editorial

A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum



Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old March 26th, 2007, 12:24 pm
more2live4  Female.gif more2live4 is offline
MuggleNet Editorial
 
Joined: 2807 days
Posts: 0
A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

This is to discuss A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum by Emerald.


Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old March 26th, 2007, 1:43 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 3577 days
Location: 5 minutes behind everyone else
Age: 56
Posts: 2,720
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

Emerald, you did well! You pieced together a lot of important things, came up with some insightful suggestions, cited (strenuously) what is one of MY favorite movies as well, and had clever "chapter" headings to boot! I particularly like the suggestion that Voldemort may be so psyched out to be facing someone who has gone to the land of the dead and returned that he might be . . . a bit off his game. Good job!

(By the way, the burial place of a hero is also considered to be powerful and potentially visionary in Greco-Roman mythology; the hero is then considered "chthonic").


__________________
WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.

Last edited by Shewoman; March 26th, 2007 at 4:43 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old March 26th, 2007, 2:13 pm
ksc  Undisclosed.gif ksc is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 2886 days
Posts: 1
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

This editorial is absolutely brilliant! It's well researched, clear, fascinating, and I can't find any holes in it! (Are you sure you aren't JKR herself?). Wow. Not only did I love reading this, but I hope you're right in all of your theories. Please keep writing!


Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old March 26th, 2007, 3:40 pm
MPG  Undisclosed.gif MPG is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 2786 days
Posts: 0
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

This is a well-researched and -written editorial. Well done!

It is my personal theory (which plays into your summation of Celtic mythology) that Dumbledore will appear as a ghost in DH because: (a) JKR's comment about Dumbledore's situation being more complicated than just plain ol' dead, (b) we are supposed to learn more about ghosts in DH (c) someone needs to coach Harry and perhaps help find more Horcruxes. I don't think consulting portraits will be enough for Harry - he needs an independent and potentially undetectable agent helping him.

In the end, either Harry will dispatch Dumbledore's ghost or he will simply go through the veil.


Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old March 26th, 2007, 3:44 pm
Ticci  Female.gif Ticci is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3746 days
Location: Illinois, USA
Posts: 42
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

Excellent Emerald. Your editorial is the most likely scenario I've read. I'm one who believes Harry's scar has to be a Horcrux; for me there just is no other explanation for his insight into Voldy's thoughts and emotions throughout the series. Your explanation of Harry's entrance into Dumbledore's tomb sounds so like Jo's writing style and as you have reconciled to Celtic mythology, the tomb scene makes perfect sense. As you pointed out, this would allow Harry to live as opposed to the jumping-into-the-veil theory, sacrificing himself for the wizarding world. Just awesome!

It also explains something Dumbledore said that was pointed out by Harry in HBP:
In COS Dumbledore says "...I will never only truly have left this school when none here are loyal to me. You will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it."
And in HBP, Jo reminds readers of this when Harry is talking to Scrimgeour by Harry saying "He [Dumbledore] will only be gone from the school when none here are loyal to him." Your ideas explain why the statement wasn't simply to call Fawkes to assist him in COS.

Thank you for your time, this one was well worth reading.



Last edited by Ticci; March 26th, 2007 at 3:53 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old March 26th, 2007, 5:33 pm
Andromeda_T  Female.gif Andromeda_T is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3249 days
Location: Right now, Glasgow
Age: 29
Posts: 19
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

I don't think this is going to happen, to be honest. I'm in two minds about Harry being a Horcrux, to start with, and I am not at all convinced that Harry's (literal or figurative) death is at all necessary to the demise of Voldemort. The prophecy did not say "neither can live if the other dies" it said "either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives" (though I confess that before OotP I would have expected the former!). So Harry cannot truly live while Voldemort survives (as well as Voldemort not living while Harry survives). I know this does not necessarily negate your theory, though.

It may be true that it does not seem that Harry has been prepared for his task fully enough yet for his mentor to exit the scene completely, but I think that's deliberate on JK's part. She may be writing in a fantasy world, but the HP books are more grounded in reality than some 'true-to-life' books I've read. I honestly do not think Dumbledore will reappear at all. Possibly his portrait may comment on the action or offer some general advice, but I don't think it'll give crucial plot information. As you said - in JK's world, dead means dead.
(And I'm sure there is no chance whatsoever we'll see DD as a ghost - ghosts are people who were afraid of death, and we know he wasn't: "death is but the next great adventure", after all!)

May I just point out that all the examples you give of Otherworld journeys in the previous books are indeed symbolic journeys? Just because we see something happening symbolically does not necessarily mean that we will later see it literally.

I don't know how much we should be associating severed heads with pictures of headteachers - the word "head" means completely different things in each case. (And admittedly the concept of severed heads does gross me out quite a bit!)

I am not at all convinced we will return to the Veil in the MoM at all - we have not yet revisited any of the locations of the climaxes of any of the books so far.

I'm afraid I can't see Dumbledore "having an Otherworld quest in mind all along". This sounds to me like another theory that bases its premise on Dumbledore knowing things earlier than he actually did. He's not omniscient, as far as I know.

Am I also allowed to confess I found your editorial a little lengthy for my liking?

I agree that it would be nice to let Harry see his parents, Sirius, etc. as this would be very nice for him, and I think he will see them - at the very end of the book. Yes, I think he will die - but in the normal way, as an old man. That's how I imagine the epilogue - an aged Harry discussing what happened to everybody who survived in the intervening years, and then passing away peacefully, and then in heaven (or heaven-type place, call it the Otherworld if you like) he is young again, and he is with everyone he loves - his parents, Sirius, Dumbledore, and whoever else has died by this point.

I do hope that Harry goes back to Hogwarts at some point. It wouldn't be the same if he didn't!

And I do think you're right about the helpfulness of Slughorn (ie. that he'll be no help at all) - I think you've hit the nail on the head with that one!

I can also say that I learnt quite a lot about Celtic mythology from reading this editorial - and I'm Irish, so I did know a bit about it already! Also, do write that editorial on fostering - it sounds quite interesting!


__________________
"JORDAN! YOU ARE NOT BEING PAID TO ADVERTISE FIREBOLTS!" (Professor McGonagall, during the first Quidditch match when Harry rides his Firebolt, PoA)
(the funniest line of the series, in my opinion)

"Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said, thunderstruck.
"It certainly seems so." said Dumbledore calmly, "Not something he intended to do, I'm sure..." (CoS, in McGonagall's office in the last chapter) hmmmm...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old March 26th, 2007, 6:39 pm
justaHPfan's Avatar
justaHPfan  Female.gif justaHPfan is offline
Sixth Year
 
Joined: 3516 days
Location: FL
Age: 38
Posts: 1,238
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

Hey Em! You did a great job putting all of this together. Very interesting to see all of the Celtic examples in the Potterverse and you drew very plausible conclusions.

My one seed of doubt comes from the length of time in the Otherworld and how much Harry will see of his dead loved ones. The only reason I pose this is due to JKR's comment about wanting to have 5 more minutes with her mom - something, of course, that is sadly impossible. She also mentioned that death sometimes comes so suddenly when you are unaware and when much unfinished business is still left behind so I'm not sure that all the unfinished business between Dumbledore and Harry will be the motivator for Harry to receive the extra help from Dumbledore. Although, I'm really 50/50 on it, to be honest as I could see her going either way. We DO know that Dumbledore makes an appearance (thanks, Dan for confirming this!) so why not have him help? And, in your scenario, having Harry have help at the end eliminates the "easy" factor of Harry running straight to his mentor without figuring some (if not most) things out on his own. (the whole point of why Dumbledore had to go in the first place!) That being said, I think in Harry's Underworld journey, he is probably going to be restricted to speaking only with Dumbledore or something like that so that his journey is bittersweet - it's successful and comforting to see and talk with Dumbledore but he can't access Sirius or his parents. There has to be sadness there, I think, to keep with the tone of the books thus far, as much as I hate it. I'd hate it even worse if, whilst Harry was underworlding, Ginny dies or something! Your comment about time passing while in the Underworld made me think of all kinds of horrible possibilities! (thanks a lot! )

All in all, lots of work for you, I'm sure and a very nice job!


__________________
He "sobbed and sobbed"?! Oh no!!!!!!!!!!
What's that support number again?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old March 26th, 2007, 6:51 pm
hermione1661  Undisclosed.gif hermione1661 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 2849 days
Posts: 0
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

Wow! Thank you for giving me a well thought out and researched reason to believe that Harry will live. I have considered the possibility of Harry going to the other side, but couldn't come up with a way he could get back. You did that for me. Have you considered the use of the two-way mirrors at all in your theory? We know it will make an appearance in Deathly Hallows. Maybe Harry will be able to communicate through the veil using the mirrors? And I loved the part about people who are invisible being able to travel between the two worlds and being able to hear the other world. At first I took the fact that Harry could hear whispers coming from the veil as a bad omen that he will die, but now I think that it may mean that Harry will realize that he can use the veil to communicate with those on the other side. I also think that the title of Book 7 is significant to your theory because in my opinion, "Hallows" refers to saints or souls and deathly describes them as resembling death. To me, this means that spirits from the other side of the veil will play an important role in the last book. Great editorial and I hope you are absolutely right!


Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old March 26th, 2007, 8:52 pm
diagonalleycat7  Female.gif diagonalleycat7 is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 2734 days
Location: Tennessee
Age: 36
Posts: 0
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

Very well written theory, a joy to read! If the last book does go this way, I would love to see Harry convince Nearly Headless Nick to go through the veil when he returns from the underworld, I think it would be wonderful to see Nick's soul finally at peace. I've always suspected the last book would include Harry speaking with the dead/travelling to the afterlife in some way, this essay is spot on.


Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old March 26th, 2007, 9:04 pm
eleni eleni is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 2990 days
Posts: 0
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

That was a very well written and interesting essay. Have you ever read Susanna Clarke´s novel "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel" there is a lot about the other world in it. I recommend it to everyone who found your theory interesting.


Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old March 26th, 2007, 9:12 pm
Indy_Racer  Undisclosed.gif Indy_Racer is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 2898 days
Posts: 28
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

Something has been bugging me for a while. Why was it so important to Dumbledore to be kept on the Chocolate Frog Cards? Is this going to be the way that Harry talks to Dumbledore?

Thanks for a thought provoking editorial.



Last edited by Indy_Racer; March 26th, 2007 at 9:17 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old March 26th, 2007, 9:45 pm
JJFinch's Avatar
JJFinch  Female.gif JJFinch is offline
Fifth Year
 
Joined: 2777 days
Location: Cornwall, England
Age: 22
Posts: 834
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

That was fantsastic - I love all those Celtic similarities with HP. Just to add to what you said about Herne (the deer God), one of my favourite books is Fire Bringer by David Clement-Davies, which is centered in the deer's belief in Herne, and also just happens to be all about a Prophecy involving a young fawn, with a mark on his forehead, brought up by a friend of his mother's for his own safety (but the book was written in 1999 so this is sheer coincidence - I made it sound worse than it is; it's not obvious when you read the book, which is absolutely fantastic).
Part of this book which is particularly interesting is:
Quote:
Well, Liam, the deer's a Christian image for a start. Many saints wear symbols of them. Saint Aidan and Saint Godric, for example. Saint Kentigern, who some call Mungo, harnessed a stag to plough and so was able to till the land and feed the people. The deer is even a symbol for Christ, because deer sometimes kill and eat the snake, the child of the serpent that tempted Adam in the Garden..."
Interesting...veeeeeery interesting...(sorry, a little Pirates of the Caribbean moment there)


__________________


"Six years ter the day since we met, Harry, d'yeh remember it?"
"Vaguely...didn't you smash down the front door, give Dudley a pig's tail and tell me I was a wizard?"
"I forge' the details."

Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old March 26th, 2007, 11:10 pm
Emerald63  Female.gif Emerald63 is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 3414 days
Location: Kansas
Age: 51
Posts: 512
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

HOLY COW! I'VE BEEN PUBLISHED!!!

What a surprise from left field! You see, I submitted this editorial near the end of October... 2005! So first, many thanks to the MuggleNet staff for hiring someone to go through all the old submissions and also thanks, of course, to Amy for choosing mine! And thank those of you who've read it, too, whether you liked it or not. I gotta say, though, the comments from those who did are a real kick in the head.

But ya know, Karma's a funny thing. I'm leaving on a two week trip in just a couple days - with lots of packing still to do - so I won't be available to address continuing comments. What a bummer! If I'm lucky maybe there will still be interest when I return.

I do have time for just a few, but please keep in mind that I've done lots of further reading, researching, and thinking since I wrote "A Celtic Solution." I've had a number of theories of what may go down in DH, although most of what I wrote in this ed stands.



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksc View Post
(Are you sure you aren't JKR herself?).
I can think of no higher praise. I am honored and delighted you liked it.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPG View Post
This is a well-researched and -written editorial. Well done!

It is my personal theory (which plays into your summation of Celtic mythology) that Dumbledore will appear as a ghost in DH because: (a) JKR's comment about Dumbledore's situation being more complicated than just plain ol' dead, (b) we are supposed to learn more about ghosts in DH (c) someone needs to coach Harry and perhaps help find more Horcruxes. I don't think consulting portraits will be enough for Harry - he needs an independent and potentially undetectable agent helping him.
Thank you, MPG.

I'm not sure about Dumbledore being a ghost. As Andromeda_T pointed out, the one reason we know of for ghosts to stay behind is because they fear death, which was not true of DD. However, I had the impression that fear is only one reason, although perhaps the most prominant one, for HP ghosts to remain in this realm. HP characters don't always know the whole story, and that may be true of Nick's accounting for the creation of ghosts. In real world lore ghosts sometimes stay behind if some great task is left unfinished or if, say, they want to see their killer brought to justice if they were murdered. If DD did stay behind and that were his reason for doing so, I can see him staying long enough to ensure that others found out Snape did what he had to do. (I know, I don't like it either, but I think it's going to be the case.) It would be important to him that Snape not be villified, or even executed, for what DD himself asked him to do. My own personal choice as a source for finding out more about ghosts in DH, besides Nick, would be the Bloody Baron. I think there's a whole lot more about him than we've been told so far.

I agree partially that Harry may yet need assistance in his efforts. But I'm also aware that in most hero stories the hero's mentor must die, or otherwise be removed from the hero's life, before the hero can grow to maturity and complete his heroic mission. It's the act of breaking from one's youth, from the support of others, that makes a true hero - he must do it on his own. That doesn't preclude a bit of advice here and there along the way, though. I do think Harry not only knows more than he thinks he does (he just hasn't recognized what yet), he has what it takes to figure out quite a bit on his own. Add in Ron and Hermion's help and I'm not sure he'll need constance guidance. But there are a few crucial points that I honestly feel DD will have to somehow address, whether through his portrait, through an Otherworld visit, or, as I read recently, through a few strategically chosen memories he's left for Harry to view in the pensieve. Before Harry can figure out some very important things on his own, he must have the basic facts to work with. It seems not all of those were covered before DD's untimely death.

As to an "independent and potentially undetectable agent," I think that may also be of Harry's doing, rather than from outside sources. We know the other Order members know how to use their patronuses to send messages. Surely they will teach the Trio and any DA members how to do this as well. But I wonder... depending on how those messages work, something we still don't know about, could patronuses also, perhaps, be used to spy? They can't be harmed, after all. Even if they are disipated before returning, I'd think there's a possibility of them retaining what they'd learned when they are cast again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ticci View Post
Thank you for your time, this one was well worth reading.
You're welcome. And thank you! I very much like your notion that there was more to the "not truly left Hogwarts" comment from CoS. I had not considered that, but you're right - at the very least DD's portrait is still there and may be able to help.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andromeda_T View Post
I don't think this is going to happen, to be honest. I'm in two minds about Harry being a Horcrux, to start with, and I am not at all convinced that Harry's (literal or figurative) death is at all necessary to the demise of Voldemort.
You know, I'm not so sure it will happen either. It's been a long time since I wrote the ed, but I do feel it's still a possibility, especially given the title of Book 7 (which was eons in the future when I wrote this). I've also seen convincing arguments that Harry is not a horcrux. I'd give even odds on that one myself. And I've even seen some pretty good theories that have Harry winning without dying in any sense. A lot has happened in the last year and a half!

Quote:
It may be true that it does not seem that Harry has been prepared for his task fully enough yet for his mentor to exit the scene completely, but I think that's deliberate on JK's part. She may be writing in a fantasy world, but the HP books are more grounded in reality than some 'true-to-life' books I've read. I honestly do not think Dumbledore will reappear at all. Possibly his portrait may comment on the action or offer some general advice, but I don't think it'll give crucial plot information. As you said - in JK's world, dead means dead.
I agree that Harry, being a hero figure, must move on for the most part without strong guidance from his mentor. But given Dan Radcliffe's recent quote about JKR saying "Dumbledore [was] giving her trouble," it sounds as though he'll play a role in some fashion in DH. That might be only vialed memories, or the portrait (which is not as interactive as a ghost), but he's obviously somehow involved in the story even after his death. When I included the "dead means dead" view of Jo's writings, I meant only that DD could not come back to life in the way we knew him - as a flesh and blood human being. I did not mean to say that his influence, or some magical echoes of him, would disappear entirely.

Quote:
May I just point out that all the examples you give of Otherworld journeys in the previous books are indeed symbolic journeys? Just because we see something happening symbolically does not necessarily mean that we will later see it literally.
You make a good point. DH may yet again provide a symbolic journey, though I'd guess it to be one even more intense than previous examples. However, if there is to be a literal journey, Jo has already laid the ground work for it to seem believable by using all the symbolic ones. Had she not done so, a literal journey might seem entirely too far-fetched to be acceptable to readers.

Quote:
I don't know how much we should be associating severed heads with pictures of headteachers - the word "head" means completely different things in each case. (And admittedly the concept of severed heads does gross me out quite a bit!)
Yeahhhh.... the Celts did a lot of things that modern people are no longer used to. I can only hope they had some pretty good methods for preserving the heads of the ancestors. I'd like to point out that there are numerous instances of symbolically severed heads in the books, one of the most vivid being when Harry first tries on his invisibility cloak (and of course, Nearly Headless Nick as the Gryffindor House ghost). (I believe there may have been a thread on this, sorry I don't know the name or location for it.) So Jo does seem to emphasize them, which I think you'd have to admit is kinda weird. Unless... she's using that imagery as a lead up to something, like the importance of "heads." You're right that a "head"-master and a head are different uses of the word. But Jo also loves word play, puns, and the like. If she does give us an informative and helpful portrait of Dumbledore, I'd just chalk up her other uses of heads as foreshadowing of that.

Quote:
I am not at all convinced we will return to the Veil in the MoM at all - we have not yet revisited any of the locations of the climaxes of any of the books so far.
I don't believe I said we'd go back to The Veil. I did skim over the ed to refamiliarize myself with it, but I didn't have the time to read it closely. I believe I made the case for Harry entering the Otherworld through Dumbledore's tomb, or an entrance created near it. I mentioned Brandon Ford's idea of chucking the other horcruxes through The Veil (an idea I still think is elegantly simple and, therefore, brilliant), but I discounted Harry going through it as Voldy would have to go in the exact same instant.

Quote:
I'm afraid I can't see Dumbledore "having an Otherworld quest in mind all along". This sounds to me like another theory that bases its premise on Dumbledore knowing things earlier than he actually did. He's not omniscient, as far as I know.
I don't think he was omniscient, but he did have an amazing network for information gathering. Perhaps his own Otherworld map scar has already shown him directly that journeying there can be helpful, perhaps in his struggle against Grindelwold. But I'll admit, that was a bit of a stretch on my part.

Quote:
Am I also allowed to confess I found your editorial a little lengthy for my liking?
Of course. I find some of them a bit lengthier than I like as well. I suppose it depends on the subject matter and the writing style as to whether anyone wishes to read all the way through. Considering you did think it lengthy, I thank you for seeing it through to the end!

Quote:
I agree that it would be nice to let Harry see his parents, Sirius, etc. as this would be very nice for him, and I think he will see them - at the very end of the book. Yes, I think he will die - but in the normal way, as an old man.
Yes, I think this may have been a bit of stretching on my part as well. It was just a thought, and such a happy one, I couldn't resist, though. And YES! I want Harry to die as an old man surrounded by those 12 children Trelawney supposedly "divined" him having, although I must say I'd feel serious amounts of sympathy for Ginny if it came true.

Quote:
And I do think you're right about the helpfulness of Slughorn (ie. that he'll be no help at all) - I think you've hit the nail on the head with that one!
You know, it's really funny... a couple months or so back I found a reference to "Slughorn" as a word in itself! It was under the entry for "slogan" in "Webster's Dictionary of Word Origins." The original Celtic term from which "slogan" stems "first appeared in Scottish English in such spellings as 'slughorne, sloghorne, and slogurn.'" It means "battle cry." My opinion of Slughorn's possible involvement in events to come has changed somewhat since I wrote the ed, and this is only one reason why. Maybe he really is too cowardly to actually join the battle, but a battle cry can come some time before the battle, in the sense of a rallying cry. Who knows? Jo has pulled stranger things and gotten away with them.

Quote:
I can also say that I learnt quite a lot about Celtic mythology from reading this editorial - and I'm Irish, so I did know a bit about it already! Also, do write that editorial on fostering - it sounds quite interesting!
I'm glad you found the Celtic myth to your liking! And I'd love to write on fostering, but I have no idea if I'd get to it before DH comes out. There was a recent death in our family (expected) and my mother is nearing the end of her life 200 miles away from my own home. In fact, I'm only going on this trip, a retreat, because I need to prepare myself for her situation to come. It's already been a busy year for me, and it looks to be even more so, especially emotionally, but if I could swing another ed, I surely will. Thanks for your support.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hermione1661 View Post
Wow! Thank you for giving me a well thought out and researched reason to believe that Harry will live. I have considered the possibility of Harry going to the other side, but couldn't come up with a way he could get back. You did that for me.
You don't know how glad I was to find out myself that it was possible!! I'm glad I was able to lighten someone else's fears with the same info that did so for me.

Quote:
Have you considered the use of the two-way mirrors at all in your theory? We know it will make an appearance in Deathly Hallows. Maybe Harry will be able to communicate through the veil using the mirrors?
I hadn't considered the mirrors at the time I wrote the ed, but I've read a lot of discussion about them since then. My mantra is, "With Jo, you just never know." So yeah, I think it's possible. And I trust her to work them in in just the right way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by diagonalleycat7 View Post
Very well written theory, a joy to read! If the last book does go this way, I would love to see Harry convince Nearly Headless Nick to go through the veil when he returns from the underworld, I think it would be wonderful to see Nick's soul finally at peace.
Thank you, and I too would love to see Nick at peace, perhaps maybe even joyfully greeting his long departed loved ones he's not seen in so long.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eleni View Post
That was a very well written and interesting essay. Have you ever read Susanna Clarke´s novel "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel" there is a lot about the other world in it. I recommend it to everyone who found your theory interesting.
No, I've not read that, nor even heard of it. Thank you for the recommendation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy_Racer View Post
Something has been bugging me for a while. Why was it so important to Dumbledore to be kept on the Chocolate Frog Cards? Is this going to be the way that Harry talks to Dumbledore?

Thanks for a thought provoking editorial.
You're welcome, and I've been wondering about those Chocolate Frog cards, too...

Strangely enough (there goes that Karma thing again) I happened to come across a reference to the last frog card Harry looks at on the Hogwarts Express in PS/SS, one he couldn't tear his eyes away from, the one showing Cliodna. As it turns out, Cliodna [pronounced KLEE-nah] is a Celtic goddess of the Otherworld, one associated with it through the sea. She "often took the form of a sea bird and, as such, symbolized the Celtic afterlife."
[From "Celtic Myth & Magic: Harnessing the Power of the Gods and Goddesses" by Edain McCoy. It has a superb listing of hundreds of Celtic deities, as well as steps for spiritual "pathworking" following the precepts of what is still known of Celtic belief, combined with other neo-Pagan concepts.]


Quote:
Originally Posted by JJFinch View Post
Just to add to what you said about Herne (the deer God), one of my favourite books is Fire Bringer by David Clement-Davies, which is centered in the deer's belief in Herne, and also just happens to be all about a Prophecy involving a young fawn, with a mark on his forehead, brought up by a friend of his mother's for his own safety (but the book was written in 1999 so this is sheer coincidence - I made it sound worse than it is; it's not obvious when you read the book, which is absolutely fantastic).
I'd bet Clement-Davies and JKR, along with many other "fantasy" authors, are familiar with the same mythology sources, which is why their works might seem to be "coincidentally" similar. There are some exceedingly common themes that run through many different mythologies, including the marked orphan who becomes a hero. Thanks for mentioning another.

Quote:
Part of this book which is particularly interesting is:
Quote:
Well, Liam, the deer's a Christian image for a start. Many saints wear symbols of them. Saint Aidan and Saint Godric, for example. Saint Kentigern, who some call Mungo, harnessed a stag to plough and so was able to till the land and feed the people. The deer is even a symbol for Christ, because deer sometimes kill and eat the snake, the child of the serpent that tempted Adam in the Garden..."
Yes, the deer is used in Christian imagery. But its symbolism was already ancient when Christianity came to Celtic lands, as was the symbolism of the snake, the dove, and other items in numerous mythologies. Their being borrowed for later Christian imagery was often a means to retain older cultural familiarity with the image and its meaning, while adding distinctly Christian interpretations in addition to the original ones. I think also the Christian missionaries saw that there was wisdom in many of the Old Beliefs and adopted the symbols for that reason as well. I very much like the mentions of Godric and Mungo!!! The symbolism of the deer eating the snake dates back at least to the time of Pliny the Elder, a Pagan Roman who died in the same explosion of Mt. Vesuvius that destroyed Pompeii. Many of Pliny's reports in his great work on natural history are simply retellings of ages old beliefs and observations. Each culture that noted certain animal behaviors would explain them within their own cultural/mythological framework, just as the Christians later did by saying the deer was Christ and the serpent was that from the Garden.

Quote:
Interesting...veeeeeery interesting...(sorry, a little Pirates of the Caribbean moment there)
I have to admit, my first thought at your "quote" was of a much older source - the comedy skit show "Laugh In" from waaay back in the 1960s!


And Shewoman, justaHPfan, as always, thanks for your support.



Last edited by Emerald63; March 27th, 2007 at 10:07 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old March 27th, 2007, 12:39 am
Twycross  Male.gif Twycross is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 3069 days
Location: Waiting for more Doctor Who.
Age: 23
Posts: 154
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

This was great. A really nice editorial. I've always liked the idea of Harry going through the veil and coming back. But you found evidence foreshadowing it. Well Done.


__________________
DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK.
Join the ASA today and help prevent spoilers!.
The shortest distance between two points, is under construction.
Anything worth taking seriously is worth making fun of.
Visit this website
godisimaginary.com/index.htm
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old March 27th, 2007, 3:03 am
bribe
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

Brilliant editorial. This quote sums up my feelings as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksc View Post
This editorial is absolutely brilliant! It's well researched, clear, fascinating, and I can't find any holes in it! (Are you sure you aren't JKR herself?). Wow. Not only did I love reading this, but I hope you're right in all of your theories. Please keep writing!
I firmly believe both that Harry is a Horcrux and that the only way for him to defeat Voldemort is through his own death. The editorial provides a brilliant method for Harry to "die" and then return to the world of the living thus fulfilling the prophesy and living a long, happy, life.

To extend your theory a little. What if, when Harry returns from the otherworld, he brings with him the souls of those murdered by Voldemort or his Deatheaters. Imagine Voldemort and the Deatheaters being confronted not only by Harry but by Dumbledore, Sirius, Harry's parents, Cedric Diggory and the hundreds of other witches and wizards who died at the hands of Voldemort's army. A similar situation has already happened (in the graveyard after Voldemort's return in GoF) so it is certainly not impossible that it could happen again.

I would regard this as one of the best editorials ever written about the Harry Potter series.


Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old March 27th, 2007, 3:52 am
Tea_Cozy  Undisclosed.gif Tea_Cozy is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3395 days
Posts: 5
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

What an interesting editorial! It was cool to learn about Celtic mythology. And I think you're def. onto something with your theory that Harry will have to cross over into the land of the dead. Brilliant!!!

Instead of Harry's patronus guiding him perhaps it will be his father, who literally is a stag. Perhaps while in the world of the dead Harry will also meet one of the founders who will help him to find /destroy a Horcrux by giving him information about it. Perhaps the special properties of say Ravenclaw's (tiara? Wand?) will be revealed by to Harry by the founder and this will allaw Harry to use its good properties to defeat the evil bit of Voldemor'ts soul inside it.

I also think that Hallow's eve will be the time that Harry journeys into the underworld. Maybe in Godric's Hollow.


Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old March 27th, 2007, 4:27 am
sfgilgalad  Undisclosed.gif sfgilgalad is offline
First Year
 
Joined: 3314 days
Posts: 0
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

great editorial ! This would make HP an outstanding book !!
Tea Cozy do you mean that Godric's Hollow could be in the underworld?
Ideas that came while reading :
About the need to be invisible, I thought Harry could use the hand of the thief.
Harry will have a huge patronus, when he comes back after having met his parents.
I imagined Dumbledore fighting with Grindelwald in london's tube while the german army attacked the city hehehe


Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old March 27th, 2007, 4:51 am
vlasiou  Female.gif vlasiou is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 3387 days
Location: USA
Age: 34
Posts: 168
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

mugglenet gets more and more educative when it comes to global mythology and religion. first we had a brilliant editorial on egyptian myths (where we got that horcrux may very well be the "Crux of Horus", thus further supporting the egyptian connection) and then we get another excellent editorial on celtic myths, where we learn that nothing in the HP world is accidental, not even Harry's patronus!


Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old March 27th, 2007, 7:46 am
MAGICicalMUggle  Male.gif MAGICicalMUggle is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 3140 days
Location: chicago
Age: 26
Posts: 435
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

great editorial!....I've also been thinking about Harry having to travel to the spirit realm at some point in DH but not to destroy the Horcrux within himself!...Which i believe to be false!..As we all know Voldemort cant bear to be inside Harry for even a moment without endearing ALoT of pain...And what people fail to realize that a Horcrux is not only a piece of Voldemorts soul that is in a object but a living piece of soul that is contained in a special object that is capable of many things as evidence from CoS the Diary Horcrux which held young Tom Riddles soul incased in its pages was able to control Ginny and cause alot of harm...So Harry cannot be a accidental Horcrux because the living piece of soul would of been able to control Harrys actions or possess him and it didnt because he aint a Horcrux!...But their must be some other reason for what had caused the scar and why Harry is able to look into Voldemorts mind and feelings...Which will be revealed in DH!...Harry will have to venture to the otherworld to find answers!


__________________
Trio walks in and informs Snape and Mcgonagall about the WB's evil plan to push the Half-Blood Prince to july 17, 2009.......



Mcgonagall:Do you think it will work Severus?
Snape: Of course it will....The WB muggles will think this necklace is worth millions of dollars and they will grab it, Then the spell i casted will work and they will all turn into........
Mcgonagall:A bunch of babbling, bumbling band of baboons!....Now Hurry up and package it already!...Serves them right!.

Last edited by MAGICicalMUggle; March 27th, 2007 at 7:51 am.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old March 27th, 2007, 12:58 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 3577 days
Location: 5 minutes behind everyone else
Age: 56
Posts: 2,720
Re: A Celtic Solution to Harry's Conundrum

"Jonathan Strange" is a great novel . . . sort of like Harry Potter with adults rather than kids and written by Jane Austen.

You remember that before Order came out JKR said she had to kill the person who died in that novel (Sirius, of course). That may well have referred simply to the time-honored custom that Mentors of Heroes Have to Go, but I've always wondered if Sirius might be the psychopomp who helps Harry navigate beyond the Veil and helps him to come back. In one way or another, Harry goes "underground" in or near each novel's climax; I really don't think that pattern ended with HBP.


__________________
WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > MuggleNet Editorials > General Editorial

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:17 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.