Was Trelawney's recollection of the Prophecy night an implanted memory?

[Horcrux_Hater]

Originally Posted by Tbone

Nice theory - I have a couple small problems though. In OotP (in the month of October) Sirius says about Mundungus: "He was banned from the Hog's Head twenty years ago, and that barman's got a long memory."

I still think it was Snape that was banned but that's discuused in another thread, it makes more sense that Snape was banned during his time at Hogwarts which Sirius would, of course, know about.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Hinoema

He was. He spent about a minute in the hall as opposed to listening against the door, arguing with Aberforth and 'waffling' about having taken a wrong turn.

Originally Posted by Hinoema

What difference do you think such a memory falsification could make, and what purpose would it serve?

If we're assuming, though, that it's possible the memory was implanted, then we can't take it at face value. The thing that makes me think Trelawney's memory was an altered implanted one, was the fact that she told Harry that Snape was also there to interview for a job, and he was eavesdropping to get pointers. It doesn't seem to me that should be part of the memory, it doesn't fit with Dumbledore's account telling Harry that Snape was still in Voldemort's employ during this time period. This was before Harry was even born, and a long time before Godric's Hollow. I don't think that Dumbledore would have given Snape a job at Hogwarts while knowing he was working for Voldemort. Thus, the part of the memory Trelawney remembers about Snape being a job applicant tells me that the memory was altered and implanted.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by Hinoema

He was. He spent about a minute in the hall as opposed to listening against the door, arguing with Aberforth and 'waffling' about having taken a wrong turn.

Exactly.

Also, we cannot rule out the possibility that Dumbledore Imperturbed the door once he realized what he was hearing. He went to the Hogs Head to interview Trelawney and was not prepared to hear anything of any significance. He was preparing to leave when she went into her trance. I think it is possible that, as soon as he realized she was making a real prophecy about Voldemort, he Imperturbed the door to prevent anyone from hearing what she was saying. And we are shown on page that Trelawney speaks in loud, harsh tones when she's in a trance.

With that in mind, Snape would not have even had to have his ear pressed against the door. He could have been standing a bit away from it and still hear the first part before Aberforth caught him. That would also explain why his waffling about going the wrong way was accepted. Unless Aberforth caught him with his ear pressed to the door, they really would have know way to know if he was deliberately eavesdropping or not.

I know he's Snape... and? He's not super-powered. It's hard to eavesdrop three feet from a door when someone's calling you to the carpet. From what I see, it's far more likely that when Dumbledore says "one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building." agrees with available canon; the eavesdropper (Snape) was detected only a short way into the prophecy then, following a brief scuffle during which Trelawney delivered the rest of the prophecy (a minute tops) and their momentary intrusion afterward, he was then thrown from the building.

I agree. That is the most likely scenario and it is consistent with both Dumbledore and Trelawney's account of what occurred that night. I still think it is possible that Dumbledore Imperturbed the door as well, but either way it works out so that Snape only heard the first part of the prophecy.

If that is the case, then no more explanation for that scene is needed. If it isn't, then we need to know why Dumbledore wanted to modify such a seemingly negligible detail. Also, Dumbledore would have explained this to Harry- we would need to know why he never mentioned altering her memory if it was important enough to overcome his normal aversion to such things.

Absolutely. I cannot imagine Dumbledore keeping something like that from Harry for any reason. He was forthcoming regarding everything else. He did not want Harry to know that Snape had been the one to overhear the prophecy, but once Harry had discovered that from Trelawney, there was no reason to keep anything from him regarding Snape overhearing the prophecy.

Well, if events were indeed as we have them on page (from what I see) and as she recalled them, then that is the memory she would have. It complicates things too much to say that the apparent events she relates onpage didn't happen, but were falsified to fill a gap only created by the assumption that they didn't happen, based on no more than another assumption that Dumbledore saying "one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and thrown from the building" meant immediately and not within two to three minutes afterward. Either way, Snape was prevented hearing the second half of the Prophecy. The scuffle works just as well for preventing him having heard it all as a false memory and requires no more explanation.

Exactly.

What is significant is that Snape overheard the first part of the prophecy and reported it to Voldemort. The two explanations that we have been given thus far are consistent with that and support each other. It is also consistent with Snape's account to Bellatrix that Voldemort had ordered him to get a job at Hogwarts. I don't see any need for further explanation.

Trelawney seeing Snape and being able to identify him as the eavesdropper was an essential device so that she could relate this information to Harry. I see no reason for that identification to be shown as false. Snape was the eavesdropper. Why create a false memory for a detail that apparently changes nothing? (In my opinion.)

Exactly.

Well, since that is exactly what she deduced from her apparently real memory, I see no need for an altered one. You say she falsely believed that Snape had been ejected before her having seen him. As apparent events stand, he was distracted from hearing the second half of he prophecy and was thrown from the building immediately after a brief scuffle and a momentary appearance. I see absolutely no difference the former could make in events, in my opinion, to justify the necessary explanations as to why Harry was never told this and why Dumbledore even did it. What difference do you think such a memory falsification could make, and what purpose would it serve?

I agree. I don't see any purpose to falsifying Trelawney's memory. It makes no difference overall. Voldemort knows she made the prophecy and knows Snape overheard the first part of it because Snape told him about it. Giving Trelawney an altered memory does nothing towards protecting her because the significant information is already known to Voldemort.

Nor would it make any difference to Trelawney herself. She may have been concerned that Dumbledore was not going to hire her, but her position was such that she would have been relieved that he chose to do so. There would be no need to implant a memory of Snape being caught eavesdropping. In fact, it would have been safer for Trelawney to remove that memory all together. It would be better for her to have no reason to question anything about that night. I think if she had ever looked deeper into Snape's presence there or what it might mean, Dumbledore probably would have removed that memory to protect her. As it stands, she never gave him any reason to do so because she continually believed that Snape was eavesdropping for interviewing tips.

The pieces all fit together nicely. I see no reason to alter the explanation given because of that.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

What is significant is that Snape overheard the first part of the prophecy and reported it to Voldemort. The two explanations that we have been given thus far are consistent with that and support each other. It is also consistent with Snape's account to Bellatrix that Voldemort had ordered him to get a job at Hogwarts. I don't see any need for further explanation.

I see it a different way. In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape was in Lord Voldemort's employ at the time he eavesdropped on Trelawney.

It doesn't seem conceivable to me, that Dumbledore would hire Snape at that time, knowing that Snape was a DE. There is a long period of time between the prophecy, Harry's birth, and the events at Godric's Hollow. I could see Dumbledore hiring Snape after Godric's Hollow and Snape's supposed remorse. But I don't see him hiring Snape before Harry's birth, as Dumbledore knew that Snape was still loyal to Voldemort. That would be like bringing the enemy into camp.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I see it a different way. In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape was in Lord Voldemort's employ at the time he eavesdropped on Trelawney.

It doesn't seem conceivable to me, that Dumbledore would hire Snape at that time, knowing that Snape was a DE. There is a long period of time between the prophecy, Harry's birth, and the events at Godric's Hollow. I could see Dumbledore hiring Snape after Godric's Hollow and Snape's supposed remorse. But I don't see him hiring Snape before Harry's birth, as Dumbledore knew that Snape was still loyal to Voldemort. That would be like bringing the enemy into camp.

He didn't hire Snape at that time - I never said that he did. Nor did Trelawney. Snape had applied for the position - he was not hired until the following year. I think it was likely sometime during the summer just before term started. But we know that Dumbledore did not hire Snape until 1981 because Snape tells Umbridge that he had been teaching for 14 years in OOTP - that dates the start of his position as September 1981.

The prophecy was made before Harry was born in 1980 - between January and July of that year. Snape had applied for a teaching position in accordance with Voldemort's orders to get a position at Hogwarts in order to spy on Dumbledore. That is also likely why he was at the Hogs Head - attempting to spy on Dumbledore even though he had been unsuccessful in getting the job so far.

All of that is in accordance to what Trelawney revealed to Harry. She felt that Dumbledore saw her in a more favorable light in comparison to Snape, who was eavesdropping. That - along with Snape's revelation of how long he had been teaching in OOTP - reveals that, while Snape had applied for the job at some point in 1980 before Harry was born, he was not actually hired until 1981.

And that is in accordance with what Dumbledore reveals. He was not suspicious of Snape initially and did not know he was a Death Eater at the time the prophecy was made. Otherwise, Snape would have been released - at least not with his memory intact. But his waffling about going the wrong way was at least in part successful. They let him go. However, Dumbledore was not inclined to hire him to teach at that time. It wasn't until at least a year later that he changed his mind. Personally, I believe that Dumbledore's reasons for hiring Snape were similar to his reasons for hiring Trelawney. Believing that Snape was risking his life in offering to spy, giving him a job at Hogwarts would afford him some protection for at least the part of the year that school was in session. Further, it allowed him to keep an eye on Snape - at least during those months.

My belief is that Voldemort and/or Snape, took advantage of the situation that the prophecy presented. Once the potential candidates for "the one" had been determined and Voldemort had Pettigrew firmly in place spying on the Potters, Snape was probably sent to Dumbledore on the pretense that he had just figured out what Voldemort intended to do and was appalled. He "confessed" his crime and put on his show of remorse and regret - claiming that he had been mislead and no longer wanted to be a Death Eater - offering his services as a spy to prove his sincerity. Of course, all of that was part of Voldemort's design. He knew all along that Snape was pretending to spy on him for Dumbledore. That was at least part of how Snape gained Dumbledore's trust.

The other possibility that I see is that Dumbledore found out from one of his other spies that Voldemort knew of the prophecy and confronted Snape. He knew that Snape had overheard the first part so it would have been a simple matter to deduce who revealed the prophecy to Voldemort. However, from there, the situation would play out in a similar manner with Snape taking advantage of the opportunity and putting on his show of remorse and offering his services as a spy. And, again, Voldemort knew that Snape was pretending to spy for Dumbledore so it all fit in with his plans.

Either scenario fits with both Dumbledore and Trelawney's accounts of what happened that night and the subsequent events that followed. Snape was able to use the situation to his advantage and place himself in a position that allowed him to have some control over the events in terms of the information that was passed to both sides. He was also in the position to direct attention away from Pettigrew as being the spy and onto Lupin instead through the information that he revealed the Dumbledore. His actions were carefully designed to make himself a valuable asset to both sides so that, no matter who was victorious, he would benefit because of the services he rendered.

[SusanBones]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I see it a different way. In HBP, Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape was in Lord Voldemort's employ at the time he eavesdropped on Trelawney.

It doesn't seem conceivable to me, that Dumbledore would hire Snape at that time, knowing that Snape was a DE. There is a long period of time between the prophecy, Harry's birth, and the events at Godric's Hollow. I could see Dumbledore hiring Snape after Godric's Hollow and Snape's supposed remorse. But I don't see him hiring Snape before Harry's birth, as Dumbledore knew that Snape was still loyal to Voldemort. That would be like bringing the enemy into camp.

That's the million dollar question isn't it. Why did Dumbledore hire Snape at all knowing he overheard the prophecy and knowing he was once a Death Eater and knowing Snape had told Voldemort what he heard? And why did Dumbledore just let Snape go that night so that he was able to convey the prophecy? I am waiting to hear a reasonable explanation for that.

But I think that Trelawney's memory was accurate, not tampered with. There is no reason for it to be otherwise. Trelawney said that Snape was there to ask for a job, and Snape told Bellatrix that Voldemort ordered him to get a job at Hogwarts so he could spy on Dumbledore. The two independent stories match.

[Hinoema]

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

That's the million dollar question isn't it. Why did Dumbledore hire Snape at all knowing he overheard the prophecy and knowing he was once a Death Eater and knowing Snape had told Voldemort what he heard? And why did Dumbledore just let Snape go that night so that he was able to convey the prophecy? I am waiting to hear a reasonable explanation for that.

Let me try to explain how I see things. I think that when Snape was caught after overhearing the partial prophecy, he told both Aberforth and Albus that he had heard nothing, and was merely there on his own business. I doubt either knew that this 20-some year old ex-student was a death eater at the time. They likely had no real reason to do anything beyond question him, so they ejected him, possibly with a stern word about minding his own business, and left it at that. Remember, at that moment, I highly doubt that anyone suspected that Trelawney's prophecy would come to what it did. And even if Dumbledore suspected Snape, what could he have done?

Then later, Snape comes to Dumbledore, telling him a tale of eavesdropping and betrayal, of Voldemort's interpretation and intentions and of his remorse. Dumbledore believes him. Snape then agrees to become an agent for the Order in Voldemort's camp to supposedly help prevent what he had set in motion. To provide a 'cover' and give him a reason to associate with Dumbledore, Dumbledore hires him as a teacher, knowing nothing about any orders from Voldemort to get himself hired to spy on Dumbledore in turn.

But I think that Trelawney's memory was accurate, not tampered with. There is no reason for it to be otherwise. Trelawney said that Snape was there to ask for a job, and Snape told Bellatrix that Voldemort ordered him to get a job at Hogwarts so he could spy on Dumbledore. The two independent stories match.

Right, the amount of deception implied by Dumbledore telling Harry nothing about this is too great to justify a difference that seems to have had no impact on events, from what I see.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

That's the million dollar question isn't it. Why did Dumbledore hire Snape at all knowing he overheard the prophecy and knowing he was once a Death Eater and knowing Snape had told Voldemort what he heard? And why did Dumbledore just let Snape go that night so that he was able to convey the prophecy? I am waiting to hear a reasonable explanation for that.

That's why I think Trelawney's memory is an implanted/altered one.

I think that Dumbledore's account of the incident to Harry at the end of OoP is the accurate one. Trelawney was only a short way into the prophecy when the eavesdropper was thrown out of the bar. That explains why Dumbledore didn't detain Snape -- he didn't know what happened until after Aberforth told him. A scuffle in the corridor would likely be a common occurence at the Hog's Head, nothing that would make Dumbldore stop and go take a look, especially with Trelawney channelling an unexpectedly important prophecy.

Originally Posted by SusanBones111

Trelawney said that Snape was there to ask for a job, and Snape told Bellatrix that Voldemort ordered him to get a job at Hogwarts so he could spy on Dumbledore. The two independent stories match.

I believe that Dumbledore did not give Snape a job at Hogwarts until after Godric's Hollow. There was a good length of time between the prophecy and the murders at Godric's Hollow -- nearly 2 years (it was winter, Harry was born in July, and was over a year old when Voldemort attacked). He may have tried to contact Dumbledore for a job while still working for Voldemort, but I can't see Dumbledore even agreeing to see him at that point. Being the good Occlumens that he is, Voldemort would never know that the reason Snape finally got the job was because he had changed sides or that there was anything significant about the timing of his employment at Hogwarts.

Also, in HBP, page 363, when Umbridge reviews Snape's teaching, he tells her that he has been at Hogwarts for 14 years. This date fits with Dumbledore's hiring him after the incident at Godric's Hollow (Harry being 16 in HBP). I believe Snape turned spy for the Order after Godric's Hollow, and based on that information, and for Snape's own safety, Dumbledore gave Snape the job at Hogwarts. And I believe the gossip about Snape wanting the DADA job instead of Potions was part of his cover, so it would seem that Dumbledore didn't completely trust Snape.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

That's why I think Trelawney's memory is an implanted/altered one.

I think that Dumbledore's account of the incident to Harry at the end of OoP is the accurate one. Trelawney was only a short way into the prophecy when the eavesdropper was thrown out of the bar. That explains why Dumbledore didn't detain Snape -- he didn't know what happened until after Aberforth told him. A scuffle in the corridor would likely be a common occurence at the Hog's Head, nothing that would make Dumbldore stop and go take a look, especially with Trelawney channelling an unexpectedly important prophecy.

Trelawney's account is consistent with that as well. Dumbledore knew what had happened, but he had no way of knowing that Snape was a Death Eater at that time. Snape's waffling about going the wrong way was believed and he was let go. It is also significant that Dumbledore did not want Harry to know that it was Snape who overheard the prophecy. He knew that Harry already hated and mistrusted Snape and he knew that discovering that would only serve to give Harry more reason to hate and mistrust Snape. It was to Dumbledore's advantage that Harry did not press the issue of who overheard the prophecy in OOTP and he passed over that quickly. His statement was an abbreviated account, but true overall. Snape was detected by Aberforth after only hearing the first part of the prophecy and he was thrown from the building a short time later. Dumbledore simply chose not to mention that it was Snape or that the eavesdropper was brought into the room after the prophecy had been completed and was then thrown from the building.

I agree with Hinoema's scenarior above. Dumbledore let Snape go because he believed him. He knew who Snape was and even then Snape had been entrusted with a secret - the fact that Lupin was a werewolf. Snape had seemingly complied with Dumbledore's wishes regarding that and, until POA, never told anyone that Lupin was a werewolf. Dumbledore would have considered that proof that Snape was trustworthy. In fact, that probably ties in to why Dumbledore trusted Snape.

I believe that Dumbledore did not give Snape a job at Hogwarts until after Godric's Hollow. There was a good length of time between the prophecy and the murders at Godric's Hollow -- nearly 2 years (it was winter, Harry was born in July, and was over a year old when Voldemort attacked). He may have tried to contact Dumbledore for a job while still working for Voldemort, but I can't see Dumbledore even agreeing to see him at that point. Being the good Occlumens that he is, Voldemort would never know that the reason Snape finally got the job was because he had changed sides or that there was anything significant about the timing of his employment at Hogwarts.

That is inconsistent with canon. First off, the dates and timing would be all wrong - I'll explain that more below. Second, we are shown in HBP that Voldemort was fully aware that Snape was giving information to Dumbledore. That was all part of their scheme and Snape's value to Voldemort was primarily contingent upon the fact that Dumbledore believed Snape to be his man. Third - if Dumbledore wanted to give the appearance that he did not fully trust Snape, then it would have been foolish for him to continually insist that he did trust Snape and refuse to hear a bad word about him from anyone.

Snape is a skilled Occlumens and that works both ways. If we are to believe that he is capable of fooling Voldemort, we have to accept the fact that he would be capable of fooling Dumbledore as well. You cannot have one without the other. From what we are shown, Snape used his skills to his advantage and played both sides against each other to his own benefit.

Also, in HBP, page 363, when Umbridge reviews Snape's teaching, he tells her that he has been at Hogwarts for 14 years. This date fits with Dumbledore's hiring him after the incident at Godric's Hollow (Harry being 16 in HBP). I believe Snape turned spy for the Order after Godric's Hollow, and based on that information, and for Snape's own safety, Dumbledore gave Snape the job at Hogwarts. And I believe the gossip about Snape wanting the DADA job instead of Potions was part of his cover, so it would seem that Dumbledore didn't completely trust Snape.

That is incorrect. That scene occurred in OOTP and Harry was 15 at that time. More specifically, that scene occurs on the Monday after their first Hogsmeade visit - where they had the first DA meeting - and that was the first weekend in October. Since Snape gives no qualifiers - such as "nearly", that dates Snape starting to teach in September of 1981 - the beginning of the term - just prior to the attack on Godric's Hollow.

Moreover, we have no precedent of any teacher being hired in the middle of a term. McGonagall was hired in December - which would have been at the end of the first term. Trelawney was apparently hired in January before the second term started. Her statement that she had been teaching for "nearly sixteen years" is one of the reasons I think the prophecy was probably made in January of 1980. I went into the timeline for all of this in more detail in my post above.

I do believe that Snape wanted to teach DADA. He loves the Dark Arts and is fascinated by them. But the closest he was going to come to that at Hogwarts was teaching defense. I don't believe that was part of a cover. And Jo did confirm that Dumbledore was hesitant to give Snape that position because he feared it would cause a relapse in Snape and he chose to keep Snape as far away from the Dark Arts as he could. That statement also confirms that Snape did want that position and Dumbledore did not want to give it to him.

I simply do not see Dumbledore firing Slughorn two months into the term - or forcing retirement upon him - or any other teacher - simply to put Snape in that position. That would be a suspicious act and draw unwanted attention. It is more likely that Snape went to Dumbledore - or Dumbledore confronted Snape - sometime during the summer of 1981.

I agree that giving Snape a teaching position was done to give Snape a cover - a measure of protection. However, unbeknownst to Dumbledore, that complied with Voldemort's wishes and put Snape exactly where Voldemort wanted him. As I said above, Voldemort was fully aware of Snape's activities in that regard - he knew that Snape was giving Dumbledore information to gain - and later maintain - his trust. It is likely that Voldemort was picking and choosing the information that Snape revealed - enough to maintain his cover, but not enough to cause any real damage to Voldemort.

There simply was no reason for Trelawney's memory to be altered. Voldemort already knew that she had made the prophecy and that Snape had overheard it. If there was any risk to her knowing Snape had overheard them, it would be safer for her to remove any memory of Snape. Implanting false memories of Snape would only serve to put her at greater risk - particularly if she ever questioned his presence that night. I believe that Dumbledore kept a close eye on that and - had Trelawney ever questioned Snape's presence beyond her initial conclusion that he was trying to pick up interviewing tips - Dumbledore would have erased her memory of it for her own protection. Since she never questioned Snape's presence and remained convinced that he was just trying to pick up tips, there was no reason to erase or alter her memory in any way.