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The Ministry Scene Revisited



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  #1  
Old June 17th, 2007, 8:56 pm
Rayjo  Female.gif Rayjo is offline
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The Ministry Scene Revisited

Discussion for The Ministry Scene Revisited by Durgam.


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  #2  
Old June 18th, 2007, 12:04 am
Twycross  Male.gif Twycross is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

Very Good editorial indeed.


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  #3  
Old June 18th, 2007, 12:47 am
sondra sondra is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

One powerful editorial did not see that one coming. Great detective work. It's been year's since I read Dante's Inferno shook me up at the time.


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Old June 18th, 2007, 2:34 am
inkling7  Female.gif inkling7 is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

Very interesting and could point us in the direction as to how Harry will finally vanquish Voldemort with his power of love and not with an Unforgivable Curse which could mean his soul won't have to be split as a result of killing someone (Voldemort).


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Old June 18th, 2007, 2:52 am
Moaning Catz  Female.gif Moaning Catz is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

I was a bit confused at first but by the end I understood what you were getting at- and yeah it would explain the weird scene in Dumbledore's office that so many of us skip over cuz it makes no sense.

Good Editorial.


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  #6  
Old June 18th, 2007, 4:28 am
SmoothieKing33  Male.gif SmoothieKing33 is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

Very well-written editorial. I would say I enjoyed it more than any editorial since before the release of HBP. Excellent catch.


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  #7  
Old June 18th, 2007, 9:23 am
lillamis  Female.gif lillamis is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

interesting editorial. however, be careful not to force a connection between the two (the harry potter series and dantes inferno); in Dante's Inferno there are places for murderers. a murderer will not be classified as a thieve, as you do with voldemort. if you want to make a connection, you should look at the canti about the places for murderers.


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  #8  
Old June 18th, 2007, 11:37 am
DondaLonda  Female.gif DondaLonda is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

So is there maybe more to the dark mark than we think? being a snake and a human skull kind of combined?


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  #9  
Old June 18th, 2007, 12:56 pm
HP_hedgehog  Male.gif HP_hedgehog is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

Great editorial I'm planning to read Dante Alighieri's Inferno as well, although I'll try to read the Italian version. Probably way too hard, but it won't hurt to try.

I've re-read the office-scene with the infamous "But in essence divided?" over and over, wondering what it could mean. Now we finally have a connection

But there's one thing I'd like to bring in. Harry DOES feel his jaws move when Voldemort speaks through him. This suggests that there is a connection between Harry and his body. Maybe Harry and Voldemort both siwtched bodies and merged together? Half-half? Difficult to imagine... also, just before Voldemort possesses Harry, he has disappeared (disapparated, I guess). We have no idea where his body might have been... maybe even behind Harry? (Or was he pushed against the wall? I can't recall exactly...)

Anyway, there's still a lot of interesting things to analyze.

Maybe some day, we should collect all editorials ever written on parallels between HP and things like Alchemy, the Bible, Inferno, Charles Dickens's Bleak House, Greek/Roman/Norse/Egyptian/(...) Mythology ... everything by which Jo may have been inspired. It should be fascinating


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  #10  
Old June 18th, 2007, 5:40 pm
Mrchuckles01 Mrchuckles01 is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

In reference to ways in which Voldemort has committed theft of goods commonly held:

I think you could interpret his impact on the wizarding world as theft. He wants to tear down the established order of things and install himself as the greatest wizard (and in my opinion eventually the only one). Even if he hasn't achieved this yet, he had gone a long way during his original reign of terror toward stealing the wizarding way of life from the magical community.

I don't know if that helps understand the symbolism, but as soon as I read the editorial I thought about his actions as "stealing" from wizard-kind.


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  #11  
Old June 18th, 2007, 11:32 pm
KathyH  Female.gif KathyH is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

Interesting theory. Not having read Dante yet, I don't know if there are better comparisons, but everything fits. Maybe the theft of commonly held goods could refer to the relics of the founders? They belonged to individuals, but maybe they should belong to the whole community. Also, we saw in HBP that even as a young child, Voldemort was a theif. He stole trinkets from other children at the orphanage, he stole from Hepzibah Smith (Sorry, I don't have my copy handy to check the spelling!) and he has probably stolen from many others. He is a little like a magpie (or serial killer) stealing trophies and so on, so the description of theif works quite well.

The only part I am not sure about is the idea that they switched bodies. What Harry experienced could be existing in Voldemort's twisted body, but he still had some connection to his own body, to feel his jaw move. Could this be because his soul is still whole and intact, so while his conciousness is displaced he still has a connection to his body?


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  #12  
Old June 18th, 2007, 11:35 pm
sfgilgalad  Undisclosed.gif sfgilgalad is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

Made me remember the scene when McGonagall says Dumbledore is too noble to use his own dark powers. That was in book 1 so I never paid much attention. Now, with all those last editorials... Was Dumbledore once a dark mage? How did he experiment dark magic? What has he been doing with Slughorn? Hmm


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  #13  
Old June 19th, 2007, 6:18 am
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

I wonder if the Peculato (Theft of Common Goods) could have anything to do with the murders Voldemort committed specifically in order to allow him to create a Horcrux. One could say that life is commonly held by the living, and Voldemort took others' lives to protect himself from death (and the fact that other people's lives could help him accomplish this could be seen as evidence of the "common holding" of life.)

Very interesting editorial. Well-researched and written.


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  #14  
Old June 19th, 2007, 2:59 pm
Boucaner Boucaner is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

A good article, well written and researched. it would be interesting if JKR wrote a piece after all is said and done that details all of the influences that went into the series.

The theory does allow for an interesting possibility at the end of DH. Could Harry initiate the switch, and, planning to sacrifice himself, kill 'himself' while in TR's body? Then, as he dies, the love that he feels for those who will live due to his actions causes him to be pulled back into his own body, leaving TR to return to a dying or dead body, or have no where to return to at all? Just a though...


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  #15  
Old June 19th, 2007, 9:16 pm
pottersleuth200  Undisclosed.gif pottersleuth200 is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

First, Good for you for reading Dante's Inferno. I never could get into it, so I appreciate your reading and relating it to the Harry Potter series for us. You stated.
Quote:
I have tried desperately to relate theft of common goods to the situation of Harry and Voldemort, but I feel that this moral cannot be specifically translated into the allegory of our Harry Potter universe; are there any commonly-held goods in their world?
Since I've not read The Inferno this is just a guess, but perhaps you are referring to physical goods. I think it might refer to "goods" that people relate to in the context of "something that is pleasant or beneficial about the world that they live in,"--ie, similar to The Common Good. If so, then I can think of many things that Voldemort has stolen from the wizarding world. Trust, for one, being the inability for the people to trust each other and count on their friends not to turn them in as spies or target them with death or torture because of their views against Voldemort; safety, meaning that no one can feel safe in an enviornment when evil wizards regularly use torturing spells and werewolves target children and people suddenly disappear or go into hiding because they feel their lives are in jeopardy; innocence, for all of the children who have grown up with the fear or mark of Voldemort in their lives (note Neville and Harry as two prime examples) and peace of mind, ie, when people are able to live their entire lives expecting that, within reason, other people will follow society's rules and they will not be forced to live in a society marked by death, fear, mayhem and murder because of one person's despotic whims. That may be completely off the mark, but I feel that the people in the Wizarding World have been robbed of all of these by Voldemort.


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Old June 21st, 2007, 1:05 am
fan36  Undisclosed.gif fan36 is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

This message is for Durgam.

I think your editorial is quite interesting. I was thinking about Peculato and realized that Voldemort stole the ring, the cup and the locket apparently common goods in the wizard´s world. It seems that important families used to have objects of this kind and it was normal. The fact is that Voldemort stole them as trophies and of course to make them horcruxes, and everytime he split his soul by killing somebody (turning stolen goods in horcruxes), his appearance changed. As far as I can see, he became almost a snake, red eyes, flat nose, large arms, etc. Maybe, just maybe, you can see a connection here.


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Old June 22nd, 2007, 5:58 pm
squibpott  Female.gif squibpott is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

Very interesting and thought-provoking editorial. A lot of time went into it. I have never read Dante's Inferno so well done.

Quote:
The theory does allow for an interesting possibility at the end of DH. Could Harry initiate the switch, and, planning to sacrifice himself, kill 'himself' while in TR's body? Then, as he dies, the love that he feels for those who will live due to his actions causes him to be pulled back into his own body, leaving TR to return to a dying or dead body, or have no where to return to at all? Just a though...
Actually this is what I was thinking when I was reading the editorial too. It would be an interesting end to the series to see Voldemort's powers turned against him.


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Old June 25th, 2007, 10:54 pm
thprophecymaker  Female.gif thprophecymaker is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

i applaud you. i would never put that much effort into anything i didn't have to do, but you're obviously a very dedicated reader.

i'd like to point something out though. not an error, just a sort of observation point. you speculated whether voldemort came to posess harry's body, taking his appearance or whether their bodies fused together. i had never thought of that before this editorial (insert more praise and applause). yet it instantly made me think of the movie. if JKR intended it to be strictly one way, that's how well see it in the movie. personally i think voldemort possessed him, but remembering what ginny says about possession (blank spaces in the posessee's memory), that is now questionable.


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  #19  
Old June 26th, 2007, 10:56 pm
WeasleyTwins888  Undisclosed.gif WeasleyTwins888 is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

I don't mean to be a spoilsport because this was a really good editorial, but I'm pretty sure the essence divided scene with Dumbledore actually takes place after Harry's dream about Mr. Weasley, not after the Department of Mysteries thing, so Dumbledore could not be referring to that event. I highly doubt that Harry and Voldemort switched places when Harry had that dream, so I don't think that what you suggested is what Dumbledore was talking about. Hopefully we'll find out more on that in book 7. Other than that, though, I liked this editorial, especially the idea that the coils around Harry's chest represent what Voldemort feels all the time. That was a really great idea. The switching idea makes sense in some ways because, like the person above me said, Harry wasn't being possessed in the same sense that Ginny was. There is still the issue about him still feeling himself speak, though. Maybe that is just his brain registering that he is speaking, but their souls have switched places...


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  #20  
Old July 1st, 2007, 3:14 am
marchon2884  Undisclosed.gif marchon2884 is offline
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Re: The Ministry Scene Revisited

I thoroughly enjoyed this article! I also have a theory inspired by your theory.
I don't know if anything like this has been posted in any editorials before, and I've tried reading and searching through them, but there are too many. Anyway, my theory is that perhaps Dumbledore DID have a darkside. And perhaps he was partially helping/assisting Grindelwald (the dark wizard who he defeated in 1945). Then Dumbledore realized the horrors of what he was doing and turned to the "good" side. He then used the inner knowledge he had of Grindelwald to defeat him. This might be another reason why he trusted Snape, not because of what Snape did, but because of what he had done in the past. He felt that Snape was sincere because he had done the same. This would also shed light on why he may not have wanted to tell Harry why he trusted Snape, not for Snape's protection, but so that Harry would continue to trust him. If Harry knew that Dumbledore used to be a "dark" wizard would he still trust him? (I'm sorry by the way that this questioning is not well-developed and is rather scattered, I'm really sort of thinking out loud here.)
Anyway, it would also explain, perhaps, the scene inside the cave, when Dumbledore mentions how he's sorry and it's all his fault. He feels so remorseful for what he did before with Grindelwald and he's reliving that.

It would also perhaps explain why Jo DID choose to have Grindelwald's defeat coincide with the end of World War II. There were a lot of people who were perhaps soldiers in the German army, who thought they were doing right, were following Hitler's (read Grindelwald's) commands and that that was right, but ended up realizing the horror of what they were doing and turned (also think Schindler's List). Although they would be good people, they also had a dark past and could very much be ashamed of this.

Again, I'm sorry for the long stream of thoughts. Just putting this out there.

Blessings!

Marc


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