Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Two: More Than a Potions Master

[more2live4]

This is to discuss Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Two: More Than a Potions Master by D.W. Hill.

[inkling7]

Your line of thinking has been the same as mine has been in many ways but then I sometimes wondered if Snape is just on Snape's side and nobody else's. I'm now swinging back to my original point of view which seems to match yours.

I agree that he appears to despise most of his students and favour only a few Sytherins but that can be explained away as a necessary part of his cover. I mean if he's nice to a Deatheaters son - Draco then it is good cover. Narcissa and Bellatrix believed him so why not Voldemort.

[JulyRJ]

I haven't read it all yet, but there's one thing I noticed.

I concluded that Dumbledore’s trust in Snape, when he returned, was due to the fact that Snape finally acknowledged that he had been victimized and manipulated by the Dark Lord – an understanding which broke through his denial when Voldemort chose not to stun Lily, but to kill her, revealing that he did not value Snape, as Snape had once believed.

And then

In any event, Voldemort is vanquished not long after Snape returns to Dumbledore’s side.

So, the beginning isn't as interesting as the first editorial but I'll just keep reading to see where it goes from here.

[GriseldatheGood]

I disagree with your assertion that Snape never missed the potions ingredients. On page 471 of GoF, Snape darkly hints that he knows.

"'Did I hear that correctly, Snape?' [Moody] asked slowly. 'Someone broke into your office?'
'It is unimportant' said Snape coldly.
'On the contrary,' growled Moody, 'it is very important. Who'd want to break into your office?'
'A student, I daresay,' said Snape. Harry could see a vein flickering horribly on Snape's greasy temple. 'It has happened before. Potions ingredients have gone missing from my private store cupboard... students attempting illicit mixtures, no doubt...'"

In the same scene, page 473, we see:
"'Potter!' Snape snarled, and he actually turned his head and stared right at the place where Harry was, as though he could suddenly see him. 'That egg is Potter's egg. That piece of parchment belongs to Potter. I have seen it before, I recognize it! Potter is here! Potter, in his Invisibility cloak!'"

It must kill him to be able to know where Harry is without being able to explain that he's located the boy by his thoughts.

That said, I rather agree with you. I've always wondered about something in SS/PS: Quirrell and the jinxed job. Quirrell is not introduced at the beginning of the year, even though all the other Defense teachers are, even when they're only switching subjects, like Snape. We must conclude that he is a returning Defense teacher, returning after his year of practical experience. Now, this could be because a) the jinx was worded something like 'curse any Defense teacher who isn't me' by Voldemort, b) the jinx recognized Quirrell and Quirrellmort as two different teachers, or c) Voldemort simply overrode his own jinx. The real point is, there should have been alarm bells going off in Dumbledore's head right about now. I even think it's possible that Dumbledore suggested the year off in order to delay the possibility of the jinx putting a nastier end to the professor. I always wondered why Dumbledore didn't investigate the matter. Perhaps he was investigating through Snape?

[lilygale]

I'm enjoying your series - especially the second one. It puts a lot of bits and pieces into focus. For instance,

"Dumbledore’s trust in Snape, Harry’s suspicions about Snape’s ability to read minds, and a boatload of references to scenes in which Snape could be doing Legilimency, support the notion that Snape, as part of his responsibilities to the Order and Dumbledore, has been gathering information this way all along. In short, Snape is keeping an eye on Harry – the eye of a highly skilled Legilimens."

I think you are spot on. You suggest that ESE Snapers might argue that Snape passes on to the Death Eaters whatever he learns about Harry through Legililancy. But there is canon that suggests that Snape has not passed on what he has learned. If Snape knows that Harry is clueless about the prophecy prior to the end of OotP, he has not passed that information on to Voldemort. After all, Voldemort spent all of Year 5 trying to lure Harry to the Ministry by using visions of the Hall of Prophecy (and the corridors leading to it). He would have taken an approach more likely to motivate Harry to the ministry if he knew that Harry was clueless regarding the prophecy.

Also Lucius, when confronting Harry in the Prophecy Hall, was astounded that Harry did not know anything about the prophecy. So while circumstantial evidence, that LV was not apprised about Harry's knowledge of the prophecy does suggest that Snape is DDM or at least not LV's man.

[iamsirius]

From the Editorial
Then Snape whispers to Malfoy and Malfoy casts a spell producing a live snake. Why would Snape want him to do that? If you don’t believe that Dumbledore is candid with Snape and shares his suspicions about Voldemort not really being gone, and the connection between Harry’s scar and Voldemort, you’re pretty much stuck with the idea that it was a random act of bullying that coincidently tied into the reality of the giant serpent behind the attacks – a literary device, nothing more. Otherwise, this act becomes a controlled experiment to find out how Harry reacts to snakes:

I agree with you that Snape did indeed want to see if Harry was a Parselmouth, but not for the reasons you suggest. As Snape says in HBP to Bellatrix, he thought Harry might be another dark wizard in which the Death Eaters could rally behind. Being a Parselmouth, thought to be a dark power, would suggest that Harry could be a future dark wizard. Then, as Snape says, he realizes Harry is just a mediocre wizard, nothing special.

[pottersleuth200]

I think part of your reasoning, particularly the theory that Snape is learning all he can from Harry through legillancy, is brilliant and a welcome fresh take in the Snape is Good/Snape is Bad debate. However, you do state,

The other purpose is a bit of wishful thinking on Dumbledore’s part, and is not something he can share with Harry. Since Snape is not swayed by the second half of the prophecy, he is not lulled into thinking that Harry must kill Voldemort. This leaves open the possibility in Dumbledore’s mind that Snape may do it himself, thereby protecting Harry from the damage to his soul which murdering someone – even Voldemort – would cause.

I have to respond to this the same way that I respond to everyone else who espouses that theory. It confounds a lot of what I think about that final scene on the Tower before Dumbledore is killed. Why would Dumbledore want/expect/hope/force ANYONE to kill someone else? Is the damage done to Snape's soul somehow less than that which would have been done to Harry's? Didnt I read somewhere that constantly splitting your soul due to repeated killings is damaging? Now Snape states in HBP, Spinner's End chapter that he was responsible for several killings. Im not sure I believe him; he was engaged in some activity that appeared to be directed at convincing Bellatrix of his loyalty to Voldemort so that could have been a lie. So it is possible that Snape has never killed anyone. Look at your own chosen passages. You quote Dumbledore's answer to Harry when Harry presses him about the prophecy and the situation that indicates that Harry has got to try to kill Voldemort.

“Got to?” said Dumbledore. “Of course, you’ve got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you’ve tried! We both know it!”

Even here, Dumbledore does not even begin to indicate that Voldemort must be killed because he is evil, or in punishment or retribution for his evil deeds. Harry must try to kill him because Harry will never rest until he has tried. So this killing business is just between Harry and Voldemort. I believe that this passage indicates that Harry may not be able to perform the feat. however, leaving that aside, one thing I certainly get from this is that Dumbledore does not believe that killing is the only potential solution to the Voldemort situation. So it kind of irks me that people just take it for granted that Snape's soul is so damaged that one more killing won't hurt. In fact, if Snape has spent the entire time since coming to Hogwarts trying to redeem himself, it certainly seems a most inappropriate "wishful thinking" on Dumbledore's part, and therefore, I can't believe it.

[toonmili]

How can anyone think Snape is evil is beyond me. Most of what was written I already pointed out but it was nice to see it down so logically

[Shewoman]

I enjoyed this editorial; it seemed much stronger than Part I.

I do find it odd that Dumbledore would hope Snape would kill Voldemort so Harry didn't have to without ever telling him so (as far as we know). I can understand that he'd allow Harry to think that he himself would have to do it in case it did turn out that way--and it is Dumbledore's style not to tell people things they really need to know.

Originally Posted by iamsirius

I agree with you that Snape did indeed want to see if Harry was a Parselmouth, but not for the reasons you suggest. As Snape says in HBP to Bellatrix, he thought Harry might be another dark wizard in which the Death Eaters could rally behind. Being a Parselmouth, thought to be a dark power, would suggest that Harry could be a future dark wizard. Then, as Snape says, he realizes Harry is just a mediocre wizard, nothing special.

Me: I'm not sure that works, iamsirius; we see no reason in PS/SS to think that Snape thinks Harry might be another dark wizard and, if he didn't think it worth investigating in Book 1, I don't think he would in Book 2. What he says to Bellatrix in Spinners End is spin.

[inkling7]

Several points to make here.

First it seems strange that Quirrell wasn't asked to make something to defend the Philosopher's Stone whereas Hagrid (Fluffy) Sprout (Devil's Snare) Hooch and/or Flitwick (the Flying Keys and Door), McGonagall (the Chess Game), Snape (the Potions puzzle) and Albus (the Mirror). So where was Quirrell's defence? Not there because Albus and Snape suspected something?

On the whole the 2nd editorial in this series is better and more thought provoking - keep it up.....

[Bscorp]

Originally Posted by inkling7

Several points to make here.

First it seems strange that Quirrell wasn't asked to make something to defend the Philosopher's Stone whereas Hagrid (Fluffy) Sprout (Devil's Snare) Hooch and/or Flitwick (the Flying Keys and Door), McGonagall (the Chess Game), Snape (the Potions puzzle) and Albus (the Mirror). So where was Quirrell's defence? Not there because Albus and Snape suspected something?

On the whole the 2nd editorial in this series is better and more thought provoking - keep it up.....

Quirrell's was the troll. It was hardly noticeable because it was already knocked out before the trio got there.

I have always felt that snape was reading Harry from Day one. Many have disagreed with me, but I did believe that Snape gave Draco Seprensortia in order to test out the Parselmouth theory- and I'm glad someone else saw it that way to.

I would also add as another poster wrote here- (and I hope your later essay mention this as well) that Snape had a similarly antagonistic line of questioning pestering Harry about "stealing" in regards to the break into his office (by Crouch/Moody) in GOF. Harry ends up putting it all together at that moment without even knowing it. But it is this incident that revealed to me that Snape probably did know that it was a student that stole from his stores suspecting Harry and his friends all along - but did not act the info or accuse him of anything in COS.

[sfgilgalad]

Yeah good editorial ! You really have strong arguments.
About legilimency, I've been thinking of something. First I always thought Dumbledore was the one who taught Snape (He didn't learn it at school, and I am very sure Voldemort doesn't teach it). Second, I think a real Legilimens (not an intruder, as Voldemort is) can't be a bad person. I see it like a sort of magical psychanalize, where you'd have to make your own introspection before getting in the others mind.
First exercise would be to face a mirror, and learn to get the informations you keep deep inside. Then you'd be able to work with a pensieve. We know two persons who practice legilimens and both use the pensieve. We don't know yet about Voldemort. I've been thinking this because of the mirror of erised, and what Snape says (he says he could learn Harry's secrets). The mirror looks into your mind when you're facing it, to know what is your biggest wish, and shows it. The day Harry sees himself with a pair of socks, he'll know he can resist
And why a true Legilimens couldn't be bad? Because the introspection would hurt him. Put a mirror in front of the Basilisk, and you'll kill it right away

Ohhhh no, once more I should be sleeping instead of saying stupid things...

[inkling7]

Quirrell was not asked to put up a defence mechanism foir the stone as the others were. The troll was a diversion so he could try and get to the stone himself and the trio and Snape foiled that action. However he managed to get there later on but didn't have to pass any of his defences to get to the Mirror did he...

[Bscorp]

Originally Posted by inkling7

Quirrell was not asked to put up a defence mechanism foir the stone as the others were. The troll was a diversion so he could try and get to the stone himself and the trio and Snape foiled that action. However he managed to get there later on but didn't have to pass any of his defences to get to the Mirror did he...

I'm sorry but I believe he was. Hagrid lists Quirrell among the teachers whom have devised an obstacle for the stone. The trio count them off as they go along and mention Quirrell in their list as well.
(1. Hagrid's Fluffy, 2. Sprout's Devils Snare 3. Flitwick's Flying keys. 4. Mcgonagall's Chess 5. Quirrell's Troll 6. Snape's Potions Riddle. 7. Dumbledore's Mirror of Erised.)

When the trio come across the Troll in going after the stone itself, That Troll is the 5th obstacle. It is cited as bigger and smellier than the other troll that he used to cause a distraction during the halloween feast which was well before the day the Trio decided to go after the Stone themselves.

[Jaz]

Originally Posted by inkling7

Quirrell was not asked to put up a defence mechanism foir the stone as the others were. The troll was a diversion so he could try and get to the stone himself and the trio and Snape foiled that action. However he managed to get there later on but didn't have to pass any of his defences to get to the Mirror did he...

Yes i think you're getting slightly confused. There are two trolls in PS/SS. The first is obviously at the Halloween feast and you are right about that, it is a distraction in an attempt to get the stone. However the second troll is actually, as mentioned in the last post, another obstacle after Fluffy, and all of the teachers did in fact have a role in the stones protection.

[inkling7]

Where was the second troll in Philosopher Stone? The one Quirrell let out at halloween but where was the second troll? I seem to have forgotten obviously as I only remenber one troll (I'm having a 'senior's moment here I guess). Please enlighten me...

[Jaz]

Originally Posted by inkling7

Where was the second troll in Philosopher Stone? The one Quirrell let out at halloween but where was the second troll? I seem to have forgotten obviously as I only remenber one troll (I'm having a 'senior's moment here I guess). Please enlighten me...

Pg 206 of the paperback UK version:

They had reached another door.
'All right?' Harry whispered.
'Go on.'
Harry pushed it open.
A disgusting smell filled their nostrils, making both of them pull their robes up over their noses. Eyes watering, they saw, flat on the floor in front of them, a troll even larger than the one they had tackled, out cold with a bloody lump on its head.

[inkling7]

Yes now I remember that - thanks, and I suppose it was Quirrells defence. Now my question is - how did the supposedly
"all-knowing" Albus NOT know that Quirrell had Vapeourmort in his turban? Was this one on his STUPENDOUS mistakes? I mean he had a real opportunity to somehow (with or without Harry) to finish this miserable piece of existence off once and for all and passed this opportununity off????

[frizzle]

In addition to Mrs. Weasley using the Summoning Charm at the Burrow, as mentioned in the editorial, another foreshadowing of its importance in GoF occurs when the Trio is on the Hogwarts Express on their way to school, when Hermione takes out The Standard Book of Spells, Grade 4 and starts to learn the Summoning Charm. (p.167) Later, she is the one who teaches it to Harry for use in the First Task.

This incident of student-teaching-student also serves as a model for Hermione to hatch the idea, in OotP, of Harry teaching the DA.

[DarkFire17]

I loved this editorial! Great job.