Dumbledore's Trust in Snape: Part Three - Riffs and Curiosities

[more2live4]

This is to discuss Dumbledore's Trust in Snape: Part Three - Riffs and Curiosities by D.W. Hill.

[sfgilgalad]

Are you trying to read into Snape's mind?...
Very acrobatic editorial, but refreshing very good and nice to read.

[inkling7]

Not bad at all - I'll have to re-read this a couple of more times to absorb it all though but you have made a few good points - keep it up. I'm really looking forward to your last instalment now.

Snape really is and enigma isn't he - and it's hard to tell whether he's on the the good side, the bad side, or his own side and just out for himself and nobody else.

[Bscorp]

Snape already believes that Dumbledore is sheltering Harry from the truth. We learn at the end of OOtP that Dumbledore has finally realized that he should have told Harry the truth about his situation and the prophecy, at the end of his first year. Has Snape been arguing that point all along?

This is something I have always suspected as well. Snape seems like the kind of guy who would want to make Harry face a harsh truth and would not understand the need to shelter a young boy. Quite possibly Snape himself had survived a difficult childhood, he might not have patience DD’s ideas of comforting Harry. I could see Snape as the kind to encourage the thought that the sooner Harry knows - the better.

Notice that Snape immediately points his wand at, and quickly binds and gags, not the convicted mass murderer, but Lupin. In fact, he doesn’t even go on then – having immobilized the werewolf – to tie Black up, as well, but merely warns him.

This is an interesting point, I hadn’t thought of that. I do like your observations about the “empty threats” that Snape makes. The “Two for Azkaban” highlight this well. Snape had no intention of killing black just then, nor was he about to send the Dementors after Sirius right outside the door- as he threatened to do so. It is also interesting that Snape bound Lupin, and considered him more a threat – rightly so apparently after all was said and done it was Lupin who provided more of a threat.

llowing Harry, Ron and Hermione to keep thier wands, and then escalating his behavior to such an unreasonable level seems calculated to me. He doesn’t let Lupin or Black tell him about Pettigrew because he already suspects that they are right, because he was listening at the door for a while before opening it. He can’t be known to have acquired that information – especially by Wormtail himself.

Ok question, I hit a roadblock on this one. I see your point about Snape keeping the children armed, but I saw that as Snape keeping them able to defend themselves against, black and Lupin. I wonder if he would have ever dreamed they would attack him- as a teacher and he was way too emotional to legilimens anyone at that moment.

I can see how Snape might possible have listened at the door before coming in, however, when he reveals himself - he is out of breath. He does not seem to have had time to calm down before entering. If he considered Lupin and Black as much of a threat, it could be an act but I don't think he would have waited at the door.

I am not sure I understand your point about Voldy here. Why wouldn’t Voldemort know it was Pettigrew that betrayed the potters? Didn’t heget secret of the Potter’s whereabouts from Pettigrew himself? How would Snape knowing this- endanger Snape to Voldemort?

[Shewoman]

Why would knowing the full Prophecy make Snape keep the DEs off of Harry?

Like Bscorp, I'm confused. Voldemort surely knows who the Potters' SK was and why would it be problematic for Snape to know it as well?

[DagnytheDaft]

I have a few problems with your assumptions. If Dumbledore were really worried about Lupin after Sirius escape, do you really think that he'd conclude that the safest place for him is in the cursed DADA position?

I'm not sure why you feel like someone (you suggest Snape) had to snitch to Filch about the Marauders' Map. I don't think anything in the text necessarily points to there having been a snitch. Sure there may have been, but it is a leap to assume that there definitely was.

And the notion that Snape thought Harry might not be Harry is quite out there.

I will say that I think your ideas are creative, thought-provoking, and fun to read, but some of them require pretty big logical leaps that go beyond what my brain is willing to accept.

[daniwelk]

“Severus, you’re making a mistake,” said Lupin urgently. “You haven’t heard everything - I can explain - Sirius is not here to kill Harry -”

“Two more for Azkaban tonight,” said Snape, his eyes now gleaming fanatically. “I shall be interested to see how Dumbledore takes this... He was quite convinced you were harmless, you know, Lupin... a tame werewolf -”

“You fool,” said Lupin softly. “Is a schoolboy grudge worth putting an innocent man back inside Azkaban?”


Re-reading this now made me think that Snape wanted to shut Lupin up quickly so he didn't further disclose more of their boyhood memories - i.e. SWM - especially in front of the students (trio) he detested & bullied. Like you said - why didn't he tie up & gag Sirius? Overall - good editorial. Lots of good analysis.

[i6uuaq]

it is an extremely well-written piece, but i also take issue with the same parts of your theory that others have pointed at.

listening at the door is not reconciliable with intending to get himself knocked out. if he suspected that the marauders were right about peter pettigrew, why didn't he just walk away? what purpose did revealing himself serve? it would have been far better to stay and listen further - after all, that was practically his entire job scope.

furthermore, considering Dumbledore's reflection on how it was a mistake to believe that Snape could overcome his childhood differences with James Potter, wouldn't it be reasonable to say the same about the other Marauders?
He entered the room working from the assumption that he was there to save the kids from a mass murderer. even if that assumption changed at some point, it would still have been prudent to simply get everyone up to the castle. immobilizing lupin was necessary, because he wasn't safe. his cover did not allow him to speak civilly to sirius. he couldn't risk being seen actively working against the rat (assuming he knew by that time), but by removing the immediate threat of sirius and lupin, could have calmed peter down enough to head up to the castle anyway, or immobilized him later if he tried to escape. Ron would have made every attempt to bring Peter back anyway, so that was one thing Snape could pay less attention to.

so, did Snape get mad, or was he just acting? Your analysis of the words used seems to imply the latter, but I am not quite satisfied with your reasonings behind the motive. But i am quite impressed at how you spotted that Snape, for all his lunatic raving, was actually more concerned about immobilizing Lupin more than anything else. Shame that everyone present misinterpreted it as him being himself as usual.


incidentally, great catch with the serpensortia thing in the previous part. i'm abit sceptical about your theory about the mirror of erised, but when you pointed out that Dumbledore was already waiting in the room, that lends it more credibility. one Snape-scene which you seemed to have missed is the one with Harry and the Pensieve, where Snape throws stuff at Harry and promises never to teach him Occlumency again. what do you make of that?

[sanyas]

"...why in all of these years, hasn’t Snape tried to extract the real memory of Professor Trelawney’s prediction from her like Voldemort does with Bertha Jorkins?"

Because Trelawney has no memory of her predictions.

Your theory basically entails the idea that throughout the six books Snape has constantly been "furthering Dumbledore's plan" (what this is apart from the obvious I don't see) through a mixture of random acts of Legilimency and general cruelty towards Harry, while at he same time keeping a careful eye on all of his activities. The idea of Legilimency comes from your reading of every scene where eye contact is mentioned as an opportunity for our lovable anti-hero to dive in and wreak havoc with somebody's mind. But the only time we actually see Legilimency taking place, Harry is very much aware that his mind has been broken into - indeed, he cannot help but come face to face with various memories which he can tell Snape sees as well as he does. So I don't see how this secret mind-reading takes place all the time.

The cruelty is apparently a facade to keep his cover as a Death Eater. From the last installment: "Imagine how Voldemort would have felt if he’d found out that Snape was Harry’s favorite teacher?" Well, he's Dumbledore's close confidante, and that hasn't put Voldemort of him, has it? Just because he is a Death Eater, doesn't mean that he has to behave so obviously like a bad guy all the time - Voldemort isn't fooled either way, and wouldn't drawing attention to yourself by bullying everone encourage people to suspect you?
The other idea is that by being nasty to Harry he encourages him to "toughen up". This is following the theory that emotional growth comes from grappling with conflict. But Dumbledore himself is always kind to Harry - you are suggesting that he has singled out Snape to behave badly just so that Harry would have someone to hate? You yourself mention that Dumbledore hoped that Snape would be able to overcome his hatred of Harry's father, yet Snape's running punchline against Harry is that he is arrogant just like his father.

I have to say that "Experiments in Parseltongue" was very good, but "Is Harry Really Harry?" seemed a little farfetched. You are also reading a lot into words like "seemed" and "apparently", but, hey, this is speculation, right? Overall, the whole thing is very comprehensive, but I am not clear on a couple of things. "Snape’s behind-the-scenes jobs and how they help or hinder Dumbledore’s overall objectives" - again, what exactly are these objectives, and how is Snape invaluable in their fulfilment? We've head about his great skills and everything, but I was hoping for speculation on exactly how Dumbledore is using Snape's role as a spy in the Deah Eaters' camp, and, hopefully, what it all means now that Dumbledore is dead, and Snape killed him. How did killing Dumbledore further the plan again? Maintaining the cover, unbreakable vow? So Snape must do whatever it takes to look like he is on Voldemort's side, even killing the planner, in order to fulfill the objective of... what, exactly? Overall, Snape's value seems to lie in being an ally who can help Dumbledore behind the scenes whilst projecting an image of a bad guy, but Harry and Voldemort both know that he is in fact a double agent, and the key question is the validity of his response to Bellatrix, that he could not have fooled the greatest Dark Wizard who ever lived... where is the evidence to suggest that he is that strong? The key moment in that scene seemed to be when he betrayed signs of irritation when Bellatrix asked why he stayed on at Hogwarts; I hope you will draw on this eventually, it seems to support your theories.

[inkling7]

Then again perhaps he (Snape) knew (despite all his grudges against James and Sirius) that Peter was alive (through his Deatheater connection) but for some (now) obscure reason didn't want the trio to know (think how Harry reacted when he found out) so he somehow 'lost it' (because of former grudges) and acted irractionally which has now caused confusion with the trio (not to mention the readers).

[nononsense]

Interesting series of articles. Many interesting points raised that I had not considered before. Most recently I have been of the "Snape is Friend" faction. Yet, I have wavered in my view of Snape through every book. Like Harry, I find much about Snape that implicates him as LV's faithful follower. Yet, so many people in Harry's world say "Dumbledore trusts him and that is good enough." As I sat rereading book 6 and reading these articles, a thought occurred to me. Perhaps Dumbledore must insist emphatically that he trusts Snape. Since Snape is such a powerful Legilimens/Occlumens, he could easily pick any Order member's brain with whom Dumbledore had shared his doubts. Snape can not see into Dumbledore's mind and all he sees in others is that they believe that Dumbledore trusts him. Snape believes himself safe as a spy, and as a result, Dumbledore can feed him false info or look inside Snape's mind to see what LV has been up to. Bottom line, I think Dumbledore does trust Snape, but trust him to what?? Be a true follower of LV???? We'll find out soon......maybe......

[sjkarlina]

Originally Posted by Shewoman

Why would knowing the full Prophecy make Snape keep the DEs off of Harry?

I think snape did know the whole prophecy...
Is there a thread that talks about this? Im having a hard time finding it.


Help?

[Liselle]

there were two threads on Snape and his interpretations of the prophecy, I've linked them here for you. Please not that these threads have been closed and as such are not open for further posting

How did Snape interpret the prophecy V1

How did Snape interpert the prophecy V2

[inkling7]

Well - what do we do if we want to say something on this subject? It's no good giving us closed threads really - is it.....

[Liselle]

Originally Posted by inkling7

Well - what do we do if we want to say something on this subject? It's no good giving us closed threads really - is it.....

I was responding to sjkarlina's request for threads on the subject. If you look at the second thread I linked you'll see that the thread was closed as conversation wasn't exactly flowing. If you feel that there's an issue with this please feel free to send me or another member of staff a message.


Now back to Dumbledore's trust in Snape!

[Bscorp]

When are are we going to see part four?

[sfgilgalad]

Liselle, an Iron Fist in Silk Gloves.

[Liselle]

[iamsirius]

Originally posted by i6uuaq
so, did Snape get mad, or was he just acting? Your analysis of the words used seems to imply the latter, but I am not quite satisfied with your reasonings behind the motive. But i am quite impressed at how you spotted that Snape, for all his lunatic raving, was actually more concerned about immobilizing Lupin more than anything else. Shame that everyone present misinterpreted it as him being himself as usual.

I think Snape immobilized Lupin rather than Sirius because it was a full moon and Lupin would soon be turning into a werewolf. Leaving Sirius unbound creates a situation in which Sirius might have to "defend" himself against the escaped convict, allowing Snape to kill Sirius as he obviously wished to. Either way Snape would have captured/neutralized Sirius and won that Order of Merlin, 3rd class (or whatever award that was).

sanyas - Great post!

[Bscorp]

I think Snape immobilized Lupin rather than Sirius because it was a full moon and Lupin would soon be turning into a werewolf. Leaving Sirius unbound creates a situation in which Sirius might have to "defend" himself against the escaped convict, allowing Snape to kill Sirius as he obviously wished to. Either way Snape would have captured/neutralized Sirius and won that Order of Merlin, 3rd class (or whatever award that was).

If Snape "obviousy" wanted to kill him- then why- after all is said and done and Snape was alone on the lakeside with Sirius's unconscious body- and no apparent witnesses- did he do nothing to Sirius but summons a stretcher to take him to the castle?