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Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation



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  #1  
Old June 27th, 2007, 12:47 am
more2live4  Female.gif more2live4 is offline
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Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

This is to discuss Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation by D.W. Hill.


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  #2  
Old June 27th, 2007, 3:41 am
Kip Kip is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

This is a small point, but it really bugs me:

You claim that Marvolo's ring used to belong to Slytherin. We have NO evidence that this is true. We know that the ring has been in his family for many years and that it bears the Peverell coat of arms, but we do NOT know that it came from Slytherin.

I'm sorry for nit-picking, but I see so many people make this assumption, and it irritates me.


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Old June 27th, 2007, 3:46 am
greyniffler  Male.gif greyniffler is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

Dumbledore's arguments for Nagini being a Horcrux are even better when applied to another serpent, a serpent that should have been immortal: the Basilisk in the Chamber of Secrets. This would mean that Harry has destroyed two Horcruxes. Dumbledore tells Harry that when Lucius told Voldemort that the diary was destroyed, Voldemort's anger was terrible to behold. But if, as Dumbledore surmises, Voldemort had planned to put that Horcrux at risk his anger should not have been quite so great. But if he learned that not one but two of his Horcruxes had been destroyed, his anger makes more sense.

There is another question. In Fantastic Beasts Rowling tells us that the male basilisk has a distinctive crown. If so, the basilisk in the Chamber was female. But when Harry must hide the Prince's book in the Come and Go Room 'attic' he finds a quintaped skeleton in the cabinet and places on the cabinet the bust of an ugly old warlock, which he surmounts with a tiara--a crown. Now ...

According to F. Beasts the Quintaped is also called the Hairy McBoon on the legend that the Quintapeds were once humans, and prefer to remain beasts. The tiara suggests a male basilisk and the ugly old warlock suggests Slytherin. Slytherin's basilisk? Or Slytherin was the basilisk? Or a basilisk, another basilisk?

In the Chamber, Rowling says that Fawkes looks like a swan. A swan is a rather large bird, too large to sit on Harry's lap, which leads me to wonder why she picked that word. It's interesting that Slytherin's descendants, the Gaunts, are named after Ghent in Flanders. Thus we have Swan and Flanders, or Flanders and Swan, the name of an old British comedy team. Coincident? With Joanne Rowling?


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Old June 27th, 2007, 5:44 am
astarstill  Undisclosed.gif astarstill is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

Personally, I think the locket can't open because it's got a horcrux inside, and Regulus never figured out how to destroy it before he was killed.


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Old June 27th, 2007, 6:36 am
FelixiaFelicis  Female.gif FelixiaFelicis is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

This is such a minor point, but you said that Harry and Voldemort are the only Parseltongues in the wizarding world.
I thought that Dumbledore might be able to understand Parseltongue because otherwise that memory of the Gaunt family from Bob Ogden would have been meaningless to him. But since Dumbledore is gone, I suppose I can't argue that that only leaves Harry and Voldemort.
This is a well written editorial (all four parts). You've given me a lot of food for thought. After I read HBP the first couple times, I was sure that Snape was a evil person. After reading several good essays on Mugglenet, I'm not sure anymore.
The only thing that still gives me pause, which no one has satifactorily explained is why Snape used Avada Kedavra to kill Dumbledore if he was secretly on Dumbledore's side. JKR has hammered in the point that unforgivable curses are not easy to cast. Righteous anger doesn't hurt Bellatrix for long when Harry tries to use Crucio on her. She says that you have to MEAN them. So in order for Snape to use Avada Kedavra on Dumbledore, wouldn't he have had to really MEAN it and want him dead???


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Old June 27th, 2007, 8:11 am
sfgilgalad  Undisclosed.gif sfgilgalad is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

I have been wondering while reading this very interresting editorial, if you not only have to destroy the object, but also to destroy it while you're dead or dying. Harry was poisoned, RAB was meant to be dead just before destroying the Horcruxe *** And Dumbledore was going to die, too, but Snape saved him.
I've been thinking hard about RAB, and now, I think I made it

RAB left this letter to tell Voldemort he was going to destroy the Horcruxe, and then, die. Because he knew that he had to die to destroy it. And that's all about it.

He says "I'll be dead" because he knows that he has to die to destroy it. He knows it, because he knew all about Horcruxes, not only that they were some strange objects Voldemort was making, no, he knew all the process. He has sacrificed himself, to destroy it. As a redemption act.
This letter sounds very close to what Dumbledore says in Book 1 : Death is not the worst thing ever. To RAB, death was a salvation. It was not a suicide. So, RAB was a guy who did bad stuff, and then realize it wasn't nice, and so, accepted death. And he took a Horcruxe with him. Only ONE, even though he knows there are others. Because he knows he has to die to destroy it, and that noone is going to heal him.
He's not saying that Voldemort or any DE will kill him! That's an important point. Because, a Dark Wizard, very skilled (He managed to get the Horcruxe, destroyed it, and escape Voldemort), is able to hide from them. No, he will be dead, because the process of destroying a Horcruxes kills the person.

OK, now if I say : someone whose name is R.A.B, who once was a dark wizard, but repented, knew a lot about dark magic (wasn't any Crabbe or Goyle), and left behind him a locket that has no more use....
It sounds like Regulus Black, It looks like Regulus Black, it touches like Regulus Black it is.................. Regulus Black.

Alright, now, we know that you have to be on you're advanced way to Heaven or Hell in order to destroy a Horcruxe. This very useful, imagine you're a Dark Wizard, if another Wizard wants to destroy your Horcruxe, he will die. So, if he does, you won't die, because he will, and if he doesn't, well, you won't either. Because there is no cure to death.
To destroy the Horcruxe, you need a helper, and a healer.
Dumbledore died (and first time, wasn't cured), RAB died, because they didn't have their healer. Harry nearly did, but he was healed by Fawkes.
That will explain why Harry IS the match. No matter if he's good with magic or not. He even could be a muggle. All he need is :
1 : A Helper
2 : A Healer
Voldemort thinks that there is no Wizard who can match him, because if one of them wants to fight him, he's gunna die. He doesn't think that they can work together. And he makes it sure by making everyone fear him (and also the others, who could be DE). That's Harry's strength. His ability to love, makes that some people stop fearing Voldemort. Their love for Harry is stronger than the fear for Voldemort. Those are the Helpers. We easily guess who they are : Hermione, Ron, Dobby. And the Healers? I think of Aberforth, and Snape. Depends if Snape is good or evil. He casted an AK curse, that makes him evil. But was it really an AK? Or was it only for the Show? Snape insists all along the book how important to cast curses without speaking, and this one, for some reasons, sounds like, but doesn't look like an AK.

Thanks a lot for this editorial !!



Last edited by sfgilgalad; June 27th, 2007 at 8:19 am.
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  #7  
Old June 27th, 2007, 2:01 pm
Nial  Male.gif Nial is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

Thanks for this monumental sequence of editorials.

I hear what you're saying about Snape, but the ending you are foreseeing is not one that I would enjoy much. You seem to be seeing an entirely passive Harry, who blunders through by luck, without skill, without understanding, and really contributes very little, except, apparently, love. The person who will do the work will be Snape. He has the skill, the power and the intelligence that Harry does not, in your ending.

And I find that pretty unsatisfactory. It's easy to say, well, okay, Snape has made mistakes, but now he's redeeming himself - but the trouble is that he has consistently and throughout the series acted as a bully, a sadist and a child-abuser. He is a man who gets his jollies by tormenting powerless children. It's despicable. Anyone who has had a Snape as a teacher knows that someone like that can completely destroy a child. He has not redeemed himself, not in the way he acts; he has been the same as ever, right to the end of HBP. Dumbledore may be able to treat tormenting children as Snape's harmless little hobby, to be tolerated for the greater good; but I can't.

If it turns out in the end that Harry is just a hapless sidekick who gets sneered at and bullied right to the last chapter by the real hero, Snape, I shall put down DH with anger and disappointment. And lots of other kids, and ex-kids, who've had a Snape as a teacher will do the same.


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Old June 27th, 2007, 2:06 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

I CAN'T BELIEVE I FORGOT ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF THE GRYFFINDOR HOURGLASS! You made a good point about that. I think you may be right. It would certainly appeal to Voldemort to make the hourglass a Horcrux--not only is it "something of Gryffindor's," but it's on display, seen by many people every day school is in session. They're looking right at it and they don't know.

greyniffler, your comments about basilisk gender are interesting. What conclusions do you draw from the comparison of Fawkes and Gaunt to a comedy team?

Felixia Felicis, HBP certainly emphasized non-verbal magic. It may be that the spell Snape spoke is not the one he cast. The apparent use of AK would, as you suggest, indicate that Snape really hated Dumbledore and, since there's no counter to an AK that hits you, Dumbledore is really dead. These things might make Voldemort quite happy with Snape. If, as the editorial suggests, Snape is going to learn the whereabouts of a Horcrux or two, it'll help if Voldemort still trusts him.

And I do think that among the evidence suggesting that Snape is good, Dumbledore's trust in him is key. I so don't think that Rowling's going to end the series with everyone--characters and readers--saying, "Well, he sure was a stupid old man."

sfgilgalad, that's a fascinating idea. Write an editorial. (Quibble: you said "imagine you're a Dark Wizard, if another Wizard wants to destroy your Horcruxe, he will die. So, if he does, you won't die, because he will, and if he doesn't, well, you won't either. Because there is no cure to death." If Harry had died after basilisking the Diary, the Horcrux would have still been destroyed.)

Nial, I didn't think the editorial made Harry so passive. And there's a lot that's going to be explained about Snape--not least of which is why Dumbledore trusted him. The man's a double agent--at least--which means that he is always acting; for a man with a Houseful of DE's kids, sucking up to Harry might not be healthy. Snape does undeniably have skills Harry doesn't; when Harry nearly killed Draco in "Sectumsempra," HBP, Snape was able to save him--and, interestingly, his healing incantation sounds "almost like song." Phoenix song? One of the things Harry's going to have to do in DH--and it may be the hardest thing--is to trust him.


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WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.

Last edited by Shewoman; June 27th, 2007 at 2:11 pm.
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  #9  
Old June 27th, 2007, 3:00 pm
Dr_Tot Dr_Tot is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

I am pretty sure that Tom Riddle did, in fact, know how to make a Horcrux before asking Slughorn about them. First off, Slughorn didn't teach him how to make one; he learned that elsewhere. Next, Riddle had already learned the unforgiveable curses (at least the killing curse) up at that point, so it seems reasonable to think that he could also have learned the horcrux incantation elsewhere. Third, he had made at least one horcrux while still at Hogwarts; the Tom Riddle from the diary said as much (I always assumed this was in the wake of Moaning Myrtle's death, though Riddle didn't technically kill her). Also, the Riddle in the diary was still a teenager in his Hogwarts robes, which is a good indication that this horcrux was made while he was still there.

Fourth, Dumbledore stated that Riddle saved the making of horcruxes for particularly significant deaths; I say this because he was wearing Slytherin's ring when speaking to Slughorn, and the night he obtained the ring was the same night he killed his muggle bloodline (a highly significant killing, methinks). This could be a clear indication that he had already made at least one horcrux before speaking to Slughorn.

I think that the reason he bothered talking to Slughorn was that he was uncertain of the effect of having multiple horcruxes; Dumbledore said that he was most interested in the idea of a seven-part soul. But I'm pretty sure that he knew how to make one in the first place; he did spend a lot of time in the Chamber of Secrets, after all..


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Old June 27th, 2007, 3:20 pm
claymate73  Undisclosed.gif claymate73 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

If Voldemort made the hourglass in to a Horcrux wouldn't that mean that he would have had to have killed within a very short period of time so that he could say the incantation? I have a hard time believing that Voldemort killed somebody after his meeting with Dumbledore at Hogwarts and nobody ever found out. I don't think that Dumbledore would have withheld that information from Harry since he says I believe that he(Voldemort) left without a founder's souvenir.


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Old June 27th, 2007, 3:52 pm
Hoggle  Male.gif Hoggle is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

i dont think you need to kill someone right before making a horcrux. Somewhere in the books it said that killing someone split your soul, and later on it goes to say that to make a horcrux you just have to put a piece of your soul into an item. I would imagine that Voldemort has his soul split into hundreds of pieces, but all but 6 of the pieces are in his current body

Very good editorial though, i enjoyed reading all of them. Lots of new ideas to think about.


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Old June 27th, 2007, 4:09 pm
LateArrival  Undisclosed.gif LateArrival is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

Your point about Horcruxes being damaged after the piece of soul is removed makes me wonder. Speculation abounds about whether or not Harry IS a Horcrux. But what if Harry WAS a Horcrux. What if, in that "missing day" after the death of his parents, the Horcrux was removed and Harry was left scarred, damaged? Cracked like Marvolo's ring?

This raises too many problems, though. Dumbledore would have removed it. Or, if Snape or some other member of the Order removed it, they would have told Dumbledore. Surely, Dumbledore would have told Harry.

Is it possible that Dumbledore didn't know? Could RAB have been at Godric's Hollow as well and removed the Horcrux after Voldemort went vapor? That's a reach. But still... It might explain why, if Voldemort made Harry a Horcrux (if Harry is "something of Gryffindor's"), that he had no issues with trying to kill him. He saw the scar and knew the Horcrux had been removed.

Nah. Couldn't be.

Still, here's yet another editorial that will leave me with something else floating around the back of my mind as I read Deathly Hallows. Nice work.


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Old June 27th, 2007, 4:37 pm
inkling7  Female.gif inkling7 is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

Interesting and I don't think Harry or his scar are horcruxes and I do think to pen the locket it will have to be done by speaking parselmouth - a bit like opening the door at the mines or Moria in LOTR by saying 'friend' in elvish so harry might just have to say open in parselmouth and voila the locket opens. Or as you suggested might not be able to be opened because it is an already destroyed horcrux.

We'll all find out in al few weeks.....


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Old June 27th, 2007, 5:07 pm
avadacadabra avadacadabra is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

I've loved all of these editorials. You've made some great points and have some great research.

I did come to bring up a point already made a few posts up - that the Ring is not necessarily Slytherin's. In fact, if you look up the Peverell coat of arms, it bears a striking resemblence to the banner of Gryffindor house. It is largely red, with a Lion on its hind legs. Could the ring have originally belonged to Gryffindor, and therefore Voldemort succeeded in getting artifacts from all four founders?

It might help to recall Sirius's conversation with Harry while looking at the Black family tree tapestry. Sirius points out that almost all pure-blood families are related at this point because of all the intermarrying. The Gaunts are only 1 or 2 generations removed from the present, so it's reasonable to assume that the pure-bloods at that time were also all related.

Is it so implausible that some member of Gryffindor's family tree married a Sytherin somewhere down the line and the ring changed hands? I'd look for a ring on Gryffindor's hand if he ends up being the new wizard of the month on JKR's site next week...


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Old June 27th, 2007, 8:01 pm
wizzy  Male.gif wizzy is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

Quote:
Harry is a Horcrux
Stopped reading there, sorry


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Old June 27th, 2007, 8:04 pm
Sunesy  Female.gif Sunesy is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

Ok, I agree with the editorial when it says that to destroy a Horcrux, the object housing it has got to be damaged... However, I disagree when it comes to the locket. Besides the fact that it doesn't open, it isn't visibly damaged like the other destroyed horcruxes... Moreover, the fact that it doesn't open suggests to me that the locket contains something which isn't supposed to leave the locket, like a piece of Voldy's soul.

Ever since the Greek philosophers, the body has been seen as "the house of the soul". In other words: the body contains the soul. When a person dies, his body remains in this world, but the soul departs to an other one ( according to Plato, the world of the ideas or forms, while the Christians call it heaven, in Harry Potter canon this would be beyond the veil ). If you would like to make a Horcrux, to bind a piece of your soul to this earth, you would need something to contain it, to act as a remplacement for your body. To destroy a Horcrux, then would be setting the piece of soul free, so it would have to go to

Let us now take a look at the ring and the diary: the ring is cracked and the diary is pierced. I think the hole and the crack served as an exit for the soul, allowing it to escape. Therefore, it is absolutely necessary that the locket DOES NOT open: if it opens Voldy's soul is released.

The diary however could be opened: yes, but a book is not meant to contain something and neither is a ring. In these two cases the soul was embedded in the very matter of the objects, in the paper and the gem. Therefore, ripping the paper and breaking the gem was necessary to set Voldy's soul free.

Another remark: You say Harry is not a Horcrux because he can't controll him like Nagini, yet he succeeds in manipulating his dreams and even speaking through Harry's mouth in the ministry scene... If Harry is a Horcrux, I think Voldemort himself didn't know it at first, why else would he cast an AK on Harry in the Graveyard scene. He must have realised it after the attack on mister Weasly...


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Old June 27th, 2007, 8:10 pm
Dr_Tot Dr_Tot is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunesy View Post

Another remark: You say Harry is not a Horcrux because he can't controll him like Nagini, yet he succeeds in manipulating his dreams and even speaking through Harry's mouth in the ministry scene... If Harry is a Horcrux, I think Voldemort himself didn't know it at first, why else would he cast an AK on Harry in the Graveyard scene. He must have realised it after the attack on mister Weasly...
All of this is great, except that he also tried to cast an AK on Harry at the Ministry of Magic... which happened several months after the attack on Mr. Weasley..


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Old June 27th, 2007, 9:30 pm
FelixiaFelicis  Female.gif FelixiaFelicis is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

So sfgilgalad and Shewoman think that Snape murdered Dumbledore with a different curse (There's no point arguing that Dumbledore isn't dead. The author has confirmed that he's dead.) than the one he said out loud? Doesn't that seem farfetched? As long as he's murdering the man, it doesn't matter to the Death Eaters how he does it as long as the job gets done. And he has unquestionably murdered Dumbledore. So why would he murder him with a different curse than the one he spoke out loud? No, that doesn't ring true.

So I still have to ask myself, if Snape is on Dumbledore's side, why does he hate him enough to pull off Avada Kedavra?


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Last edited by FelixiaFelicis; June 27th, 2007 at 9:32 pm.
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Old June 27th, 2007, 10:21 pm
avadacadabra avadacadabra is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

Quote:
So I still have to ask myself, if Snape is on Dumbledore's side, why does he hate him enough to pull off Avada Kedavra?
Does the emotion required for an unforgiveable have to be *caused* by the intended recipient? I mean, Snape obviously felt hate, but did it need to be hate for Dumbledore in order for him to direct that emotion into the curse?


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Old June 28th, 2007, 6:38 am
sfgilgalad  Undisclosed.gif sfgilgalad is offline
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Re: Dumbledore's Trust in Snape - Part Four: Horcruxes and Speculation

I don't know if Snape murdered Dumbledore or no, I was just thinking that it might not be an AK. Dumbledore was going to die anyway. That just makes a difference if you have a real unfogivable curse or not, doesn't it? But I think we were only talking about that because what have been said is that if it was a true AK, Snape (as a bad guy) is (most likely) not going to help Harry, and so the speculations about the whereabouts and everything about horcruxes that are mentionned in this editorial will be different from what will happen if Snape faked everything. This is the big question at the end of HBP : what's going on with Severus??!! From this, we can assume a lot about Horcruxes.


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