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  #1  
Old July 5th, 2007, 4:25 am
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All about werewolves

I know that there used to be a thread on this topic, but I can't find it so I assume it was pruned at some point. If I'm just making a mess of the search engine, feel free to redirect me.

So, this thread is to discuss all aspects of werewolves. Here are some introductory questions:

1) How do you feel about the way werewolves are treated by wizarding society and wizarding law?

2) How do you think werewolves should be regulated (if at all)? What place should they have in society.

3) What would have to happen in order for this issue to be brought to light and dealt with? Do you think there will be room in DH for this topic?

4) Is werewolf discrimination akin to other discrimination in wizarding society (such as goblins, house elves, giants, muggles etc)


5) When werewolves transform, do they retain some of their humanity? Do they have any self control?

If you have any other questions that I could add, feel free to post them here


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Last edited by Rell; July 5th, 2007 at 5:34 am.
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  #2  
Old July 5th, 2007, 5:24 am
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Re: All about werewolves

Please do not discuss the possible involvement of werewolves in DH here. There is another thread for that.
The role of the werewolves in Year 7


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  #3  
Old July 5th, 2007, 5:33 am
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Re: All about werewolves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastor D View Post
Please do not discuss the possible involvement of werewolves in DH here. There is another thread for that.
The role of the werewolves in Year 7
I will edit my question list


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  #4  
Old July 5th, 2007, 5:40 am
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Re: All about werewolves

Good thread idea Rell

Quick post to start: werewolves should be able to hold jobs, but due to the nature of their "furry little problem", it should be criminal for them to not take the wolfsbane potion or take other steps to protect the general wizarding public. Because the means exists for them to ensure they remain "safe", they should take those means - to not do so is irresponsible, in my opinion.

Perhaps more later...


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  #5  
Old July 5th, 2007, 5:45 am
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Re: All about werewolves

Thanks for creating this thread Rell! I think this can be a great discussion because those of us discussing it elsewhere had totally different opinions, but were very respectful to one another! I look forward to a great discussion here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rell View Post
1) How do you feel about the way werewolves are treated by wizarding society and wizarding law?
Well JKR seems to think that the wolf part of a werewolf should be seen as a disability.

I wonder how Greyback fits in with JKR's disability theory? Does Greyback too just have a disability like Lupin? I don't think Greyback himself sees his condition as a disability, he seemed rather satisfied with himself at the idea that he might eat some of the children at Hogwarts.

Should the wizard world have equal prejudice against a person like Greyback who actually wants to attack them (man or wolf) and a man like Lupin who may attack them as a wolf, but doesn't want to as a man? Is there any hope for a werewolf like Lupin when there are werewolves like Greyback about?



Last edited by wickedwickedboy; July 5th, 2007 at 11:33 am.
  #6  
Old July 5th, 2007, 8:02 pm
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Re: All about werewolves

Quote:
Originally Posted by chparadise View Post
Quick post to start: werewolves should be able to hold jobs, but due to the nature of their "furry little problem", it should be criminal for them to not take the wolfsbane potion or take other steps to protect the general wizarding public. Because the means exists for them to ensure they remain "safe", they should take those means - to not do so is irresponsible, in my opinion.
I agree with you and I think that the ministry has taken the stupidest approach possible with regard to werewolves. Currently, werewolves are completely ostracized, helps nothing. Werewolves are given no means to support themselves or to live with dignity, and they are free to hurt others.

Instead, I think that the ministry should keep tabs on all werewolves. Require any bitten werewolf to become part of a registry, provide easy access to wolfsbane potion, and a means to keep tabs on them to ensure they are taking it. That way, werewolves would not be dangerous, and they would be free to hold jobs, go to school and live in society normally.

A werewolf who refuses to follow these regulations would be forfeiting there place in society, because, yes, they are dangerous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I wonder how Greyback fits in with JKR's disability theory? Does Greyback too just have a disability like Lupin? I don't think Greyback himself sees his condition as a disability, he seemed rather satisfied with himself at the idea that he might eat some of the children at Hogwarts.
Even if he does not think he has a disability, his actions should be viewed as criminal. Biting children and killing them should be considered wrong even if it's in the werewolf's nature. If the ministry had laws in place for werewolf regulation, Fenrir would not have any basis for an excuse at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Should the wizard world have equal prejudice against a person like Greyback who actually wants to attack them (man or wolf) and a man like Lupin who may attack them as a wolf, but doesn't want to as a man? Is there any hope for a werewolf like Lupin when there are werewolves like Greyback about?
With regards to the difference between Lupin and Fenrir, they should be judged according to their individual actions, which would not be prejudiced. Imprisoning a werewolf who refuses to regulate his own wild behavior is not prejudice, because he is a murderer. With werewolves like Fenrir about, it will always be hard for Lupin, because people are very afraid and suspicious of all werewolves. It is unfortunate that the problem was never taken care of, because it is doable.


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  #7  
Old July 5th, 2007, 8:26 pm
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Re: All about werewolves

I think werewolves harbor a great deal of resentment toward non-werewolves because of the stereotypes and bigotry associated with their classification. I think that, if given a fair opportunity at leading a normal life, most werewolves would turn out like Lupin and not like Greyback. It would be different if they were born werewolves, but since they are turned into werewolves after having lead a normal human life previously, they would probably be much less inclined to bite others if they were not being oppressed. I completely agree with chparadise that taking the Wolfsbane Potion should be mandatory.


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  #8  
Old July 5th, 2007, 8:34 pm
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Re: All about werewolves

Yeah, they should employ a good potions-maker at the MoM and provide the potion. Open question as to whether or not this should be taken out of their salary. These sort of steps should be a condition of the werewolf's acceptance into wizarding society. Not sure if watching over the 'wolf to see if they took the potion is too big-brotherish or not...

Lupin's comment to DD in PoA intrigued me. Do werewolves have a memory of what they do in wolf form? If so, that's got to be horrible for someone like Lupin, who wouldn't harm a fly unless the fly was a DE.


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  #9  
Old July 5th, 2007, 8:48 pm
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Re: All about werewolves

Good Thread Rell!

1) How do you feel about the way werewolves are treated by wizarding society and wizarding law?

I think that it is sad, and that J.K. thinks it is as well. The character of Lupin is a physical representation of the pain which is caused not only be being a werewolf in general but by being one in an intolerant society. He feels like an outsider because the members of his government and his peers treat him as such...and this is very sad.

2) How do you think werewolves should be regulated (if at all)? What place should they have in society.

I think that a potion should be available for them if they choose to live in the wizard community as a human being...but another thing is that they should be encouraged to do such, which is part of the problem. They are not accepted, therefore do not seek the potion that would help their cause.

3) What would have to happen in order for this issue to be brought to light and dealt with? Do you think there will be room in DH for this topic?

I think that some things will be resolved in DH, like the removing of Greyback from his self-appointed position of power within the werewolf community. As well as in the epilogue I think that maybe there will be some people (like Hermione) who will attempt to initiate more freedoms and protection of the werewolves...as well as other magical creatures (house elves)

4) Is werewolf discrimination akin to other discrimination in wizarding society (such as goblins, house elves, giants, muggles etc)

Absolutely, discrimination is discrimination no matter the level. Those who discriminate against one group will more than likely discriminate against all beings who are different from themselves.


5) When werewolves transform, do they retain some of their humanity? Do they have any self control?

It depends on who you talk to. In these novels they don't seem to have much self control...however I have read many other books about werewolves (Women of the Underworld Series being one by Kelly Armstrong) where they do retain some sense of self. So I think that in the context of the "Harry Potter World" they are much more animalistic, which is why there is a need for the potion.


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Old July 6th, 2007, 2:53 am
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Re: All about werewolves

Let us just for a moment turn the tables.

Why can't human wizards (as brilliant as they are) come up with a potion that they can all take once a month at the full moon that would make them unattractive to werewolves?

OR

Why can't they come up with a spell (like the patronus) that will deter the werewolves under the fool moon without harming the wolf?

Why is the solution to 'change' the werewolf and make him more human and managable (wolfsbane potion, regulations and laws)?

In my opinion, wizard society is taking the total wrong approach. They consider being a werewolf a bad thing, they want werewolves who live in society to feel the same way. In that way, the werewolf has all the responsibility to humanize himself for their pleasure. I think society should take that responsibility upon itself.


  #11  
Old July 6th, 2007, 3:01 am
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Re: All about werewolves

I think Hermionie should start ETOW- Ethical Treatment of Werewolfes lol


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  #12  
Old July 6th, 2007, 3:21 am
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Re: All about werewolves

1) How do you feel about the way werewolves are treated by wizarding society and wizarding law?

-They are presented as savages, and the public seems to be undereducated about them. The laws that Umbridge helped pass should be removed.

2) How do you think werewolves should be regulated (if at all)? What place should they have in society.

-They should be put on a special watch list, which should be available to the public, for thier own saftey. They should have a perfectly normal place in society.

3) What would have to happen in order for this issue to be brought to light and dealt with? Do you think there will be room in DH for this topic?

-Lupin will have to use his werewolf form to kill Fenir, or some other great achievement while in werewolf form.

4) Is werewolf discrimination akin to other discrimination in wizarding society (such as goblins, house elves, giants, muggles etc)

(What is akin?) More on this later...possibly.


5) When werewolves transform, do they retain some of their humanity? Do they have any self control?

-They do not have much self control. They are human by day, wolf by full moon night. Yet, as we have seen with Fenir, they can control themselves somewhat if they transform when there is not a full moon.


(I felt like I was taking the WOMBAT again.)


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  #13  
Old July 6th, 2007, 3:32 am
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Re: All about werewolves

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Well JKR seems to think that the wolf part of a werewolf should be seen as a disability.
I always read the "werewolf" situation as being akin to a disease like HIV/AIDS--not easy to catch unless certain circumstances apply, yet the population is frequently scared to have even limited contact with a person "infected" and the social status/economic wellbeing of the werewolf/HIV patient suffers.

Quote:
I wonder how Greyback fits in with JKR's disability theory? Does Greyback too just have a disability like Lupin? I don't think Greyback himself sees his condition as a disability, he seemed rather satisfied with himself at the idea that he might eat some of the children at Hogwarts.
Greyback is an interesting character in my take on lycanthropy, because he's like the (?urban legend?) character who decides that he's deliberately going to infect as many people as possible as some sort of cosmic payback for his suffering this horrible condition. It would be interesting to get some backstory on Greyback--how old was he when he was bitten? What sort of persecutions did he suffer to make him so hateful and cruel, or is he just sociopathic and being a werewolf has nothing to do with it?

Quote:
Should the wizard world have equal prejudice against a person like Greyback who actually wants to attack them (man or wolf) and a man like Lupin who may attack them as a wolf, but doesn't want to as a man? Is there any hope for a werewolf like Lupin when there are werewolves like Greyback about?
This was a great point--I think a lot of us HP readers are inclined to knee-jerk a sympathetic response to werewolves because Lupin's the first one to come to mind, but when you think of Greyback, you realize that there's some basis in anti-werewolf bias that's reasonable. It's hard to criticize anti-werewolf measures if they keep someone like Greyback from attacking people at random, but rationally, the ministry does do a poor job handling the werewolf issue. As others have pointed out in this thread, marginalizing the werewolf population hurts those affected who just want to live their lives. If werewolves can't make a decent living and be integrated into larger society, they're more susceptible to the radicalizing influence of someone like Greyback, who encourages them to ignore the rules of society for their own gain. In general, pushing people to the fringes of society usually just creates problems for society in the end.


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  #14  
Old July 6th, 2007, 4:15 am
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Re: All about werewolves

Aww, you beat me to it Rell! I was writing up a "leaflet" and everything! Seriously, I'm glad someone else had the idea to discuss this, too!

Werewolves are being persecuted, no question on that. Remus is a prime example of a person who would normally be not only a functional member of society but a successful one, but who has been forced to the very bottom of that society for something of which he has no control. Most people afflicted lead a life of, um, less than grandeur out of necessity; they have no choice. Why? Because of government persecution.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
I wonder how Greyback fits in with JKR's disability theory? Does Greyback too just have a disability like Lupin? I don't think Greyback himself sees his condition as a disability, he seemed rather satisfied with himself at the idea that he might eat some of the children at Hogwarts.
Greyback is a bit crazy, but he's an exception to the rule, possibly brought on by dementia that accompanies some types of medical conditions or psychosis stemming from them. Here's his logic: he bites young children so they will be raised away from their parents and other humans, only to pretty much brainwash them into thinking it's their parent's fault for abandoning them and they deserve blood for it. It's Greyback's fault many of them are werewolves to begin with, and then he convinces them to join his cause. He's got some serious charisma somewhere, though I don't know where he hides it.

Werewolves should be regulated only in that they admittedly are very dangerous one day of every month. Perhaps a registration could be implemented if one is not already in place, and free distribution of the Wolfsbane potion or even classes to teach adept wizards how to make it would be good places to start, although, as Remus said, it seems to be a very difficult potion to master, and could probably go quite wrong if something went awry.

Discrimination is akin to itself, yes. Any sentient being/beast should have the same rights, and share in equal place in society if they so choose, which includes punishments for breaking the law. Werewolves, at least, are human twenty-nine days of the month, after all, and can during those times, make preparations and take precautions to assure no one gets hurt.

They must retain some vestige of their human mind while they are transformed. Remus mentions that he seemed more aware of himself when he was with James, Sirius and Peter on their moonlit adventures. I actually believe that this is how the Wolfsbane potion works, to suppress the "animal instinct" in the werewolf so he/she can be more of a human mind then a bestial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by me_me View Post
I think Hermionie should start ETOW- Ethical Treatment of Werewolfes lol
Way ahead of you!
The Werewolf Equal Rights Edict Movement - Manifesto


Fellow magic users and Muggles! Join in the Movement to secure equal rights for werewolves and all peoples afflicted with magical aliments. These normally normal people have been persecuted and discriminated against for many centuries, and it's high time we get out of our medeival attitude and accept them as our fellow humans. Hate crimes have gone unpunished, and even Ministry of Magic laws are imposed that oppress these fine people. Even if they, for one night every month, transform into a ravenous bloodthirsty human-killing beast, the other twenty nine and a half days of every month they are otherwise no more dangerous than you or me, as Mr. Newt Scamander alludes to in his world-famous book Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them:

Quote:
Once a month, at the full moon, the otherwise sane and normal wizard or Muggle afflicted transforms into a murderous beast.
There have been recent signifigant breakthroughs in treating the condition also known as lycanthropy. (I refer here to the physical condition of lycanthropy, not the Muggle psychologial disorder of the same name.) While lycanthropy has not yet reached the point where it can be completely cured, the development of the Wolfsbane Potion, invented by co-chair Damocles Belby, Order of Merlin First Class, has significantly reduced the dangers associated with the affliction. Further reports tell of an unknown wizard or witch that has also had temporary success with the Homorphus Charm. The Wolfsbane Potion, as many wizards already know, is a very important discovery that allows the lycanthropic to keep his or her human mind and temprament while transformed. As it is a relatively difficult potion, we are currently striving to stock and distribute to afflicted Muggles and wizards, as well as holding classes for instruction on the recipe and method to afflicted wizards and/or their families (Sorry, we cannot accept Muggles into the class)..

The Legislation passed by former Senior Undersecretary Umbridge in 1993 is a clear act of dicrimination against our fellow humans, and an insult to all "part humans", as she degrades them to. It denys essencial human rights and leaves our friends in a state of extreme poverty, forcing them to resort to drastic measures to survive. Join the WERE Movement to stop the outrageous abuse of our fellow people and campaign for a change in their legal status!


To join the Movement, copy-paste this to your signature:

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  #15  
Old July 6th, 2007, 4:25 am
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Re: All about werewolves

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Why is the solution to 'change' the werewolf and make him more human and managable (wolfsbane potion, regulations and laws)?
First of all, Remus has described his transformations as painful, and he does not like that he loses control over himself. I think that the wolfsbane potion empowers the werewolf by giving them the self control to not hurt others. Werewolves are people, and I think they want to be treated as such.

If someone is in a position where they might be a harm to others, I beleive that it is that person's responsibility to ensure that that doesn't happen. The responsibility is on the werewolf to make sure that they are not crazy murderers once a month. Of course, it's also the ministry's responsibility to make this feasible. But, I don't think that the werewolf side is so appealing to werewolves themselves, except to Fenrir - and it's appealing to him mostly as a weapon.


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Last edited by Rell; July 6th, 2007 at 4:29 am.
  #16  
Old July 6th, 2007, 9:18 am
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Re: All about werewolves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rell View Post
First of all, Remus has described his transformations as painful, .
The wolfsbane potion does not help make transformation less painful. It merely allows them to be human and retain control. Thus the availability of the potion would not be attractive to a werewolf who merely wanted to rid themselves of the pain of transformation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rell View Post
and he does not like that he loses control over himself. I think that the wolfsbane potion empowers the werewolf by giving them the self control to not hurt others. Werewolves are people, and I think they want to be treated as such.

If someone is in a position where they might be a harm to others, I beleive that it is that person's responsibility to ensure that that doesn't happen. The responsibility is on the werewolf to make sure that they are not crazy murderers once a month. Of course, it's also the ministry's responsibility to make this feasible. But, I don't think that the werewolf side is so appealing to werewolves themselves, except to Fenrir - and it's appealing to him mostly as a weapon.
Remus wants to live in wizard society. Thus I agree, he should take precautions against harming those he wants to live with. The potion should be made readily available to him by the ministry. They should also look for ways to help him remain pain free during his transformations. The reason his werewolf side is not appealing is because it is difficult for him to be one and live in society. If he hadn't had to fight that his whole life, we don't know how he would actually feel about it.

However, that is Remus. What if there are those who DO like their wolfside and do not particularly want to live in wizard society. It then falls on wizard society to find ways to keep themselves from harm and not the other way around. I suggested some ways above.

I also don't think you can compare most werewolves to Remus, his life has been far different than most. He got to go to Hogwarts, he knows what living in society can really mean and really that is all he knew while growing up.

Others who didn't get to do that may prefer living in a less domesticated setting. If they choose to shun society, then society has a right to shun them to the same degree. But society is at a disadvantage in that werewolves attack humans and we do not know if the reverse is true (no mention of werewolf hunters in general).

So society should protect itself in ways that allows those werewolves that wish to live among them to do so (acceptance and assistance) and find ways to protect itself from the others. That protection would also assist them if one of their own missed taking his potion, etc.

In all of that I hope this point is clear: one cannot generalize that all werewolves find their wolf state unappealing or that living in society is so great every wolf, if given the choice, would choose to live within the wizard world or that being in a wolf state is a bad, negative or evil thing merely because they attack humans. Humans are not superior to werewolves (even in their wolf state)!



Last edited by wickedwickedboy; July 6th, 2007 at 9:24 am.
  #17  
Old July 6th, 2007, 9:03 pm
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Re: All about werewolves

Actually, the way I read it, the potion does make transformation less painful. Lupin says that his transformations back in the day were painful, seemingly implying that they were not when he was taking the potion.

I would think that most werewolves, having begun their lives as full-fledged humans, desire to remain within human society. As I said earlier, it would be different if they were born as werewolves, but they are not.

Werewolves have a desire to bite humans when they are transformed. It seems that if werewolves were separated from everyone else, they would seek to return to human communities so that they could bite humans.

Chapter 17, Prisoner of Azkaban"I as a very small boy when I received the bite. My parents tried everything, but in those days there was no cure. The potion that Professor Snape has been making for me is a very recent discovery. It makes me safe, you see. As long as I take it in the week, preceding the full moon, I keep my mind when I transform.... I'm able to curl up in my office, a harmless wolf, and wait for the moon to wane again.

"Before the Wolfsbane Potion was discovered, however, I became a fully fledged monster once a month. It seemed impossible that I would be able to come to Hogwarts. Other parents weren't likely to want their children exposed to me.

"But then Dumbledore became Headmaster, and he was sympathetic. He said that as long as we took certain precautions, there was no reason I shouldn't come to school...." Lupin sighed, and looked directly at Harry. "I told you, months ago, that the Whomping Willow was planted the year I came to Hogwarts. The truth is that it was planted because I came to Hogwarts. This house" -- Lupin looked miserably around the room, -- "the tunnel that leads to it -- they were built for my use. Once a month, I was smuggled out of the castle, into this place, to transform. The tree was placed at the tunnel mouth to stop anyone coming across me while I was dangerous."

Harry couldn't see where this story was going, but he was listening raptly all the same. The only sound apart from Lupin's voice was Scabbers's frightened squeaking.

"My transformations in those days were -- were terrible. It is very painful to turn into a werewolf. I was separated from humans to bite, so I bit and scratched myself instead. The villagers heard the noise and the screaming and thought they were hearing particularly violent spirits. Dumbledore encouraged the rumor.... Even now, when the house has been silent for years, the villagers don't dare approach it...."

"But apart from my transformations, I was happier than I had ever been in my life. For the first time ever, I had friends, three great friends. Sirius Black... Peter Pettigrew... and, of course, your father, Harry -- James Potter."


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  #18  
Old July 6th, 2007, 11:32 pm
strange magic  Female.gif strange magic is offline
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Re: All about werewolves

1) How do you feel about the way werewolves are treated by wizarding society and wizarding law? Badly. They really need to edit those, and kick Ms. Umbridge out.

2) How do you think werewolves should be regulated (if at all)? What place should they have in society.
They should be allowed normal place in society. Some regulation should occur because we don't want a epidemic of Lycanthopy. Wolfsbane should be provided and from what i take, it isn't. Werewolves were born human and most want to live in normal human society with their families. From what I take from JKR - most are leaving because of all of the laws and such, if those were revoked, they would return to human society. Most of Greybacks followers are forced to be there, by him. He kidnaps kids, infects them, and brianwashes them. What ever the reason, stealing innocent children is NEVER right. I would probably feel different if he was attacking the person who upset him, but not their children.

3) What would have to happen in order for this issue to be brought to light and dealt with? Do you think there will be room in DH for this topic? Probably, JKR left a cliff hanger with Bill and Greyback and all. Perhaps Hermione will get involved with werewolf rights...

4) Is werewolf discrimination akin to other discrimination in wizarding society (such as goblins, house elves, giants, muggles etc) OF COURSE!! Although I would have to agree with Hermione that the House Elves are in the worst situation, they have no freedom at all.

5) When werewolves transform, do they retain some of their humanity? Do they have any self control? Without wolfsbane, NO. Lupin would never attack Harry and transformed he does, so the answer is no. Some authors make it so they do, but not JKR. We need to focus on her werewolves, not Hamilton's or Harris's (although I do admit that I like all werewolf books)


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  #19  
Old July 7th, 2007, 1:28 am
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Re: All about werewolves

Actually JKR hasn't gone into detail about werewolves in the way Hamilton or Harris have. We cannot be certain whether or not she feels they retain some traces of humanity. The movie made it seem as if that were the case...and JKR approves the scripts, so you would almost believe that she does feel they retain some, albeit, not much, lol.

Lupin said: It is very painful to turn into a werewolf....present tense, so I don't think we can conclude that it is no longer painful to transform.


  #20  
Old July 7th, 2007, 1:55 am
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Re: All about werewolves

Well, regardless of whether or not they retain humanity while transformed, they are only transformed at the full moon, and so are human for the rest of the time.

"It is" as in it is generally painful to turn into a werewolf. Just because there is something that makes transformation less painful doesn't mean that the transformation itself is not generally painful. Just like it is painful to have your hand cut off, but if you take painkillers, the pain is lessened.


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