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All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2



 
 
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  #121  
Old January 30th, 2007, 6:03 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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Originally Posted by kw82 View Post
RAB must have had a lot of information about the horcrux in the cave before going to retrieve it else he/she wouldn't have had a similar looking locket to leave in its place. How did he know that it would be that particular horcrux in the cave and not, say, Hufflepuff's cup? Would he have written that note there in the cave before drinking the potion which he knew would kill him? Or did he just meant that betraying Voldemort would eventually result in being murdered (in which case he could have written the note before going to the cave)?
omg ur right!! someone who knew which horcrux was present.. or transfigured it.. hmmm.. but if we leave transfiguration out of it.. its someone who knew.. who saw him.
even if he wrote it before he drank it.. who put the fake locket in..?house elf?andthen how did they get out.. ono.. dont tel me tey didnt.. are they in the water?


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  #122  
Old March 29th, 2007, 9:46 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

Do you think that the potion actually contained Phosphorus? If I remember correctly (I was horrible in Chemistry) it glows greenish in the dark when it comes in contact with oxygen and ignites when it makes contact with air. I think it may also be toxic. That might be why DD was craving water? Whatcha think?


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  #123  
Old March 29th, 2007, 9:51 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

Well the liquid had a phosphorescent glow in it. As the name suggest that it must have phosphorus in it for sure. But I don't think that it is the effect of the chemical that tortured Dumbledore but the magic that was in the potion.


  #124  
Old March 29th, 2007, 10:41 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

Just when I thought my Chemistry class of many (many,many) years ago might just come in handy.

I figured the potion would have certainly accounted for the memories/begging, but thought that there might be a chemical element included that might be the reason for his thirst...Glad I'm not in Snape's potion class!


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  #125  
Old March 29th, 2007, 11:33 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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but thought that there might be a chemical element included that might be the reason for his thirst
That is possible because Phosphorous is known for its Dehydrating effect. Its compounds like Di-Phosphorus Penta Oxide are used as Dehydrating agents. So that is true. I never though Jo would do so much of detailing.


  #126  
Old March 30th, 2007, 12:43 am
The_Scifanac  Male.gif The_Scifanac is offline
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

I don't think any science is involved in the significance of the magical powers of that emerald potion.

Question: As far was we know, there was no way, Harry and Dumbledore would have been able to empty the basin withought drinking the potion, but couldn't they have just emptied the goblet once they had taken some of the potion out of the basin and kept doing that untill it was empty? But ofcoarse Voldemiort would have probably placed enchatments on the cave that would have kept the potion withing any container it was put into and only let out when it was about to be drunk. And probably only lets one goblet be conjured at once. Similar to how he disabled the aguamenti charm to prevent the conjuring of clean water.

Now what did that potion actualy do? I think it was the affects of dementor's precence in liquid form. Dumbledore was scared to tears and misery when he drnk that potion, he might have even been recalling the worst memory of his life! JK has siad in the that we will find out more about Dumbledore in the final book, maybe this will be one of the things we discover what his worst memory is.


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  #127  
Old March 30th, 2007, 2:52 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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Originally Posted by mysterious View Post
That is possible because Phosphorous is known for its Dehydrating effect. Its compounds like Di-Phosphorus Penta Oxide are used as Dehydrating agents. So that is true. I never though Jo would do so much of detailing.
Whoa! I am certainly impressed! Show off...penta oxy..what? I take it that you are well versed in Chemistry? Maybe Jo was a Chemistry major

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Originally Posted by The_Scifanac View Post
I don't think any science is involved in the significance of the magical powers of that emerald potion.
Isn't science, well chemistry, used to make potions? In some of the other potions we've heard Snape talk about are real..like a Bezoar he mention in SS and Harry uses in Slughorns class and well as when Ron drank the poisoned meade...a bezoar is a hard gastric or intestional mass (stone) found chiefly in a goat or hoofed animal and once considered as an antidote to poison.
And the wolfsbane...etc..

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Scifanac View Post
Question: As far was we know, there was no way, Harry and Dumbledore would have been able to empty the basin withought drinking the potion, but couldn't they have just emptied the goblet once they had taken some of the potion out of the basin and kept doing that untill it was empty?
I had wondered that myself, but I don't think that LV would have made it that easy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Scifanac View Post
I think it was the affects of dementor's precence in liquid form. Dumbledore was scared to tears and misery when he drnk that potion, he might have even been recalling the worst memory of his life! JK has siad in the that we will find out more about Dumbledore in the final book, maybe this will be one of the things we discover what his worst memory is.
You may just be right..there have been other theories as well, like the potion contained the tortured memories of Amy Benson and Dennis Bishop or DD's fight with Grindlewald. I believe that Jo will certainly let us in on what it was.


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  #128  
Old March 30th, 2007, 4:08 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

I could see the surrounding lake being the "Draught of the Living Death." It's clear and the water (literally) houses The Living Dead (inferi) Dumbledore's portrait was seen to be sleeping when it appeared in the Headmaster's office. However, DD didn't drink much from the lake itself. Harry was only able to splash the water of Dumbledore's face before the Inferi interrupted him.

My question is this; Why and How did Dumbledore know he had to DRINK the potion in the basin (which appeared to be very much like a Pensieve) as opposed to dumping it, making it evaporate, or whatever he could do to dispose of it beside putting it inside of his own body? He was very specific about the fact that he had to drink it!!!

Was this just a plot device to present Dumbledore as a symbol or a Christlike figure who took on the sins of others?

Or was it something necessary to the function of the Horcrux and/or the spell that kept it? Remember that for some reason Dumbledore had to wear the Ring in order to get it into Hogwarts and destroy it -yet it still destroyed his hand and presumably weakened him quite a bit.

The Diary possessed the mind of the reader's mind (Ginny) and influenced Harry.

Do the Horcrux somehow have to be ingested, worn, etc by those who disturb them in order to be removed and/or destroyed?

Could the potion itself have contained a/the Horcrux and the surrounding lake- a second level of security to assure the one who drank it didn't leave the cave?



Last edited by Bscorp; March 30th, 2007 at 4:14 am.
  #129  
Old April 1st, 2007, 2:18 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

Has anyone put the whole cave sequence together like this before?

The Potion in the bowl (whatever it was) causes the drinker to have either nightmares, hallucinations or experience their own or others' worst fears or experiences; no matter what it is, it causes great mental anguish and forces the drinker to need water.

Now, say the lake is made up of Draught of Living Death.

Dumbledore said Voldemort wouldn't want to immediately KILL - but perhaps there is more to it than that. Perhaps the whole idea is to have them locked inside their own nightmares - mind going strong in a body that appears, to alll others, to be dead. Perhaps even discovered by others and buried?

Is this not a "fate worse than death"?

If all of the Horcruxes are protected in this way - Dumbledore would know it - and he would know that Voldemort knew what he was talking about when he said "we both know there are things worse than death."

Finally - that Dumbledore was specifically seeking the help of Professor Snape is interesting. If Dumbledore has not told Snape about the Horcruxes, and if Dumbledore's injuries/illness/poor physical condition was due to the combination of effects of these potions - of course he would need Snape - who else would be able to give the antidote?

Also - perhaps Snape knew EXACTLY what was happening to Dumbledore - that this was the fate in store for him - he would certainly recognize the symptoms and would be one of the few people to understand this particular cruelty created by Volemort.

In this instance, I can certainly see Dumbledore's 'Severus, please" as an appropriate statement. Dumbledore wasn't begging for his life, he was begging Snape to help him avoid a fate worse than death. It would be the only thing that would cause Dumbledore to do that. Snape had to do it out of love/respect for Dumbledore and there did not need to be any sort of prior arrangement between the two to make this a heroic act on the part of both men.

This whole Draught of Living Death has me absolutely horrified for Harry; particularly if Voldemort needs to keep him alive and under his control.


  #130  
Old April 17th, 2007, 7:19 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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Originally Posted by powerfulmagic View Post
Has anyone put the whole cave sequence together like this before?

Now, say the lake is made up of Draught of Living Death.

he would know that Voldemort knew what he was talking about when he said "we both know there are things worse than death."

This whole Draught of Living Death has me absolutely horrified for Harry; particularly if Voldemort needs to keep him alive and under his control.
I have looked through the thread, and I think the lake being made of a potion is slightly farfetched. Potions unlike spells have to be made, can you imagine how long it took someone to make enough potion to fill a lake? Also why would you need to put a potion in the lake, if you drank from it the Inferi would kill you, that sorta negates the need for it to be a potion. That line about fate worse than death was spoken by Dumbledore. Voldemort believes death is the worst fate. I am not sure about these things, but I can imagine that all you said was true, but I would still have a problem with the symptoms of draught of the living death. I had always assumed that it was one where it faked the symptoms of death, if DD had drank it, he would not have gotten up, especially a whole goblet full.

All that being said, I think that having dumbledore relive someone else's memories wouldn't be as upseting as reliving his own. He would be more affected if he was personally involved in the memory, or someone he cared about deeply was involved. If the potion did make him relive some memories, I think it is likely that it wasn't of the children who Voldemort attacked back when he was a child.

I am intrigued about Snape recognizing the symptoms when he saw DD, but I am not sure that the potion in the lake or in the basin was draught of living death.


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  #131  
Old April 17th, 2007, 9:07 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

I love the general gist of this theory, but think... If Voldy needed to get to the Horcrux to use that portion of his soul, he probably would have had to go through any traps that were set for others too. We know that DD was the only wizard he feared, so to make the horcrux truly DD proof, he likely would have had traps, such as the potion, even affect himself (i.e. they are impassible for everyone).

Given this thought, the affects of the potion, whatever its affects on the body, mind, soul, etc. were, would probably be set up so that it would cause as little damage to Voldy as possible. I'm still a little unclear about the whole body/mind/soul relationship, but I would suspect that the fact that he would have lost his current portion of soul if he needed the one in the locket, would imply that the traps caused some sort of damage to a person's soul.

Please feel free to attempt to elaborate upon (or refute) my theory, as I'm clearly not capable of putting such philosophical thought into words.


  #132  
Old April 17th, 2007, 4:30 pm
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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Originally Posted by dasfres View Post
I love the general gist of this theory, but think... If Voldy needed to get to the Horcrux to use that portion of his soul, he probably would have had to go through any traps that were set for others too. We know that DD was the only wizard he feared, so to make the horcrux truly DD proof, he likely would have had traps, such as the potion, even affect himself (i.e. they are impassible for everyone).

Given this thought, the affects of the potion, whatever its affects on the body, mind, soul, etc. were, would probably be set up so that it would cause as little damage to Voldy as possible. I'm still a little unclear about the whole body/mind/soul relationship, but I would suspect that the fact that he would have lost his current portion of soul if he needed the one in the locket, would imply that the traps caused some sort of damage to a person's soul.

Please feel free to attempt to elaborate upon (or refute) my theory, as I'm clearly not capable of putting such philosophical thought into words.
If Voldemort has to go through the same traps, perhaps the potion is something to do with reliving something which you feel most guilt-ridden about, reliving the event that is most on your conscience. Lord V probably wouldn't feel guilty for anything so it would not affect him.


  #133  
Old April 19th, 2007, 5:43 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

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Originally Posted by dasfres View Post
I love the general gist of this theory, but think... If Voldy needed to get to the Horcrux to use that portion of his soul, he probably would have had to go through any traps that were set for others too. We know that DD was the only wizard he feared, so to make the horcrux truly DD proof, he likely would have had traps, such as the potion, even affect himself (i.e. they are impassible for everyone).

Given this thought, the affects of the potion, whatever its affects on the body, mind, soul, etc. were, would probably be set up so that it would cause as little damage to Voldy as possible. I'm still a little unclear about the whole body/mind/soul relationship, but I would suspect that the fact that he would have lost his current portion of soul if he needed the one in the locket, would imply that the traps caused some sort of damage to a person's soul.

Please feel free to attempt to elaborate upon (or refute) my theory, as I'm clearly not capable of putting such philosophical thought into words.
I don't see why Voldemort would ever have to go back for the horcrux at all, though Dumbledore says the boat was a safe means to cross the lake to visit or remove the horcrux if he wanted, so there's that i guess. But the way I understand them to work is not as a reserve soul for when you lose yours, but as an anchor for what's left of the original. When Voldemort lost his body at Godric's Hollow, his soul remained intact because it was anchored by at least one, probably more, horcruxes. That original soul was the form of voldemort we saw in the first 4 books up until he conjured a new physical form for it to live in. Now he still has the same tattered original soul that tried to kill baby Harry in a spanking new body, and the same horcrux anchors holding him here if he should lose his body again.

That said, sure... I guess the obstacles en route to the locket would have effected him as well. Except he'd likely know in advance to bring someone else (muggle, young wizard, someone he didn't care about - so anyone really) to donate blood on the doorway and drink the potion and wouldn't have to weasken himself or endure whatever effect it has on the drinker. Then he'd just add them to the inferi army in the lake.

The other options are: He entrusted each horcrux to a death eater without revealing what it was. Lucius had the diary. He took the ring himself and hid it at the Gaunt house. Maybe he gave R.A.B. the locket to secure in the cave and he swapped it and planted the fake like some have stated (Now maybe Bellatrix or others know where additional horcruxes are hidden). Or maybe only those with a dark mark can reach into the potion without having to drink it. Or maybe he drank it then planted the fake and the basin refilled himself. Based on the strict orders Harry was given it could be a paralell to the loyalty you'd get from a house elf - Kreature might have been given similar orders to follow - "Make sure I drink all of it no matter what. Then switch the lockets. Then take me home." Something like that. It'll give Harry a good lead in tracking down the locket as well seeing how he owns Kreature.

I've heard a lot of people suggest the potion makes the drinker feel the terror of the kids from the orphanage - but where would the "I know I've done wrong" and "Kill me!" portions come from in that case? It seems like the guilt theories are more in line with Dumbledore's reaction. I've also seen a lot of dementor-effect potion theories, but they make you relive your worst memories. That means Dumbledore would have had to experienced whatever made him react that way at some point in his past. Aside from possibly feeling guilty or responsible for the deaths of members of the Order, like Harry's parents and others, what on earth would evoke such a reaction from calm, cool and collected Professor Dumbledore?

I thought it might be more of a Boggart potion - and Dumbledore was seeing his worst fear - possibly that it was all his fault his students were being hurt or killed. We've seen this sort of reaction foreshadowed by Mr's Weasley's Boggart at 12 Grimauld which reduced her to a puddle of guilt and crying. It would also go along with the cave - Voldemort used terrorize orphan kids there, and it contains two things, bodies and darkness, which Dumbledore tells us Voldemort secretly fears (we've eve seen first hand his reaction at seeing the spirits of his victims popping out of his wand - a look of horror). He also says what we really fear when we fear such things is the unknown - much as the effect of the potion is unknown, resulting in realizing ones worst fear. Hardly a new weapon for the Dark Lord.


  #134  
Old July 12th, 2007, 7:59 am
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Re: All about the potion in the basin that Dumbledore drank v2

My guess is the potion in the cave was the Elixir of Empathy. Voldemort is a sociopath, as per JKR, and a sociopath by definition is completely devoid of empathy or compassion. So Voldemort, pre-resurrection with Harry's blood, could have drunk the E of E without any bad effects because he cannot feel empathy. But any other normal human being would feel empathy when they drank it and would feel the suffering of others. That would be why V chose to put the locket Horcrux in the E of E, because he knew only he could drink it wiht nothing happening to him.

This brings up the question, is the power Harry has that V has not love or empathy/compassion? I believe it is compassion/empathy. Compassion is greater than love because it is inherently selfless, while love can be selfish.


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