Lily's Sacrifice

[SongDove]

I tried looking for this topic but I couldn't find it anywhere.

But something that I find strange is that they say that there is only one person to ever survive AK, and that is Harry Potter because of the charm that his mother created when sacrificing her life for his. Does this mean that is in the thousands of years history before Voldemort showed up on the Potter's doorstep that no one ever died so that someone else could live, creating the same sort of protection charm?

[Sevstrueluve]

Originally Posted by SongDove

I tried looking for this topic but I couldn't find it anywhere.

But something that I find strange is that they say that there is only one person to ever survive AK, and that is Harry Potter because of the charm that his mother created when sacrificing her life for his. Does this mean that is in the thousands of years history before Voldemort showed up on the Potter's doorstep that no one ever died so that someone else could live, creating the same sort of protection charm?

No, that is not what Ms. Rowling is saying. Tis the fact that Riddle gave her the choice. We have to keep in mind that this world is entirely fictitious. Lily willingly gave her life, knowing she didn't have to die. That is what makes the difference. Riddle never gave anyone else that chance. That is why the sacrifice is so compelling. But, the Headmaster built upon the sacrifice adding magick to it. After all, ". . . Petunia took you in sealing the charms that I created."
I don't remember where in the books this is from, or it could be a movie quote. But I remember Albus Dumbledore telling Harry this.

[Quertle]

There are also frequent references to it being 'old magic' (even LV says this). the significant things is that LV overlooked love/sacrifice, considering it beneath his own magical powers

[Ginny1984]

I have always found the blood-ties and the sacrifices & things muddled in my head!!
It is old magic, and is not very well explained anywhere, and I suppose the only one who could have divlged deeper into it was Dumbledore! I have never seen a mention to any books regarding this!

[stark0912]

I think it has a lot to do with the choice that Lily was given to live or die, as said before. But it still seems very unlikely that nobody in the history of time had been given the choice to live or die for someone. But then again, who knows how long ago the AK curse was created?

[Quertle]

We don't know that it had never happened before. The phrase 'old magic' comes from LV, not DD: 'His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice ... this is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it' (GoF Ch. 33 The Death Eaters). This seems to me to imply that such a case has arisen before. The significance of the sacrifice is therefore not that it was unique, but that LV ignored that branch of magic, considering emotions and love to be inferior to his own strength.

[Shewoman]

JKR said in her mammoth interview with Melissa and Emerson in July 2005 (when HBP came out) that what happened with Lily had never happened before: someone giving their life to save someone else even though the killer said he would let her live. This is why James' death, fighting to protect Harry and Lily, didn't have the effect that Lily's did: he wasn't offered the chance to live. It's at Madame Scoop's website.

[Artemis_Black]

Originally Posted by Quertle

There are also frequent references to it being 'old magic' (even LV says this). the significant things is that LV overlooked love/sacrifice, considering it beneath his own magical powers

Pride cometh before a fall.

So it is with Lord Voldemort. He was arrogant enough to overlook that ancient magic and assume that he was unstoppable, especially from a little baby. He was in for a rather nasty surprise.

[Ginny1984]

Its not magic though is it? DD always says that there are things deeper than magic, what Lily did for Harry, so its not magic but its above it?

[Artemis_Black]

Perhaps. But Lily's sacrafice was out of love for her son, and love is one of those kinds of things where it's considered a type of ancient magic that you don't necessarily need a spell for.

[JadeDragon]

Also to be considered, how many people sacrifice themselves for another person who then has an AK curse hurled at them? It's not really common to use an unforgivable, right? Most sacrifices would be like throwing yourself in traffic to rescue a child from a bus, or protecting you wife from being buried under a falling piano by acting as a human shield, etc. Statistically speaking, a DE or other evil wizard that uses the AK and a person who has benefitted from a sacrifice of the sort Lily made ending up in the same place under these circumstances at the same time is probably rare...

The use of a sacrifice to protect another is not unknown, but wouldn't stick in anyone's mind (even LV) as something by which one would become invulnerable if the protected person hadn't been the object of something drastic like an AK. It may seem under other circumstances that Harry had been lucky to escape his situation (car wreck that killed his mother, etc) if the AK hadn't then been tried and rebounded.

I think the concept of using one's self-sacrifice as a protection against the AK hadn't been evaluated before, and that this is what the above reference reflects. I don't think anyone debates really that Lily consciously gave up her life and that that is why a "sacrifice" that protected Harry occurred. I think we all know that a true sacrifice is not something that happens by chance or without complete understanding of what will happen. That said, Lily's sacrifice truly was an amazing thing.

[ChrisN14]

Apologies if this seems a little off topic, but reading about Voldemort giving Lily a chance of survival gotme wondering.

Was James killed just because he was standing between Voldemort and Harry, or did Voldemort see him as a threat as well? Voldemort could easily have pushed James aside and go straight for Harry, but he didnt, he just killed him.

There is probably a really obvious answer to this, but any thoughts all the same?

[skedaddle]

Originally Posted by ChrisN14

Apologies if this seems a little off topic, but reading about Voldemort giving Lily a chance of survival gotme wondering.

Was James killed just because he was standing between Voldemort and Harry, or did Voldemort see him as a threat as well? Voldemort could easily have pushed James aside and go straight for Harry, but he didnt, he just killed him.

There is probably a really obvious answer to this, but any thoughts all the same?

Thats a good question, actually. I recently re-read the first book, I don't quite remember if there was a line in it, or they just put it in the movie in which Hagrid said something alone the lines of, "Whoever stood in his way ended up dead." I'm sure that everyone knew about Voldemort and what he was doing, but no one had actually been able to recall seeing him because they were dead, there were no witnesses. It is quite possible that no one knew what Voldemort looked like. He killed James because he didn't want anyone going on about seeing him. Then however, we get to Lily, in which he gives her the choice. In DH, in "The Prince's Tale" Snape says to Dumbledore that he asked Voldemort to spare Lily. Maybe, just MAYBE for one minute, Voldemort wished to respect someones wishes, and when someone decided not to listen and to sacrifice her own life, the charm was put on Harry.

Just my theory, though it is flawed .

[Sussudio]

Originally Posted by ChrisN14

Apologies if this seems a little off topic, but reading about Voldemort giving Lily a chance of survival gotme wondering.

Was James killed just because he was standing between Voldemort and Harry, or did Voldemort see him as a threat as well? Voldemort could easily have pushed James aside and go straight for Harry, but he didnt, he just killed him.

There is probably a really obvious answer to this, but any thoughts all the same?

To me, Voldemort would just kill for the heck of it really.
I think he'd see it as, why just push them aside when you can kill them and get rid of them for good?
Also, J.K herself described Voldemort as "arrogant" - so I think even if James was a threat to Voldemort, Voldemort wouldn't think this. He'd naturally consider himself better than James, you know?

Just my opinion

[ChrisN14]

All sounds fair to me.

I was also wondering if James' death would protect Lily. Presumably not as she died also. But if James tries, and ultimately fails and dies for the cause, to protect Lily and Harry, why does this not protect Lily in the same way her death protects Harry?

[PerfectWinter]

James' death didn't have the same effect as Lily's because Lily went willingly to her death, she had the option to run and leave Harry alone but she chose to die. James didn't have the choice, Voldemort would have killed him had he run.

[RaynePhoenix]

There is nothing stronger then a mother's love. Father's love comes in a close second, but a mother has had to carry the child for a long period of time. I think this is what it means by a deeper kind of magic It is not a physical kind of magic it is an emotional kind of magic. Voldemort was never subjected to a wide range of emotions throughout his life, therefore over-looked its importance.

James didn't want to give his life up for his family, because he didn't want anyone to give up their lives, therefore he died fighting, where as Lily 'walked' to her death. I think Lily knew exactely what she was doing, I think she knew that she was protecting Harry from more then Voldemort was capable of.

[Sevstrueluve]

Originally Posted by ChrisN14

All sounds fair to me.

I was also wondering if James' death would protect Lily. Presumably not as she died also. But if James tries, and ultimately fails and dies for the cause, to protect Lily and Harry, why does this not protect Lily in the same way her death protects Harry?

The reason that James' death didn't protect Lily is that he was not given a choice. LV came with wands blazing to kill the Potters because thay had thrice defied him. He was going to kill James and Harry. But, he offered Lily a choice. The choice to stand aside and watch as her son was hoplessly slaughtered. No mother in her right mind would ever willlingly do that. That is why her sacrifice is so compelling, so moving.

[LilyDreamsOn]

Originally Posted by Sevstrueluve

The reason that James' death didn't protect Lily is that he was not given a choice. LV came with wands blazing to kill the Potters because thay had thrice defied him. He was going to kill James and Harry. But, he offered Lily a choice. The choice to stand aside and watch as her son was hoplessly slaughtered. No mother in her right mind would ever willlingly do that. That is why her sacrifice is so compelling, so moving.

Yes, exactly.

Voldemort may not have seen James as a complete threat, but he still would have loved him dead, considering James and Lily had thrice defied him. At the time, James was without a wand, but he stood in the way to give Lily enough time to try and escape - truly heroic of him. He didn't have any way of defending himself. So yeah, his sacrifice didn't cause the same protection because he would have been killed either way. Lily had the choice, because for once in his life Voldemort did a favour for someone else and gave her the chance to live. That's the subtle difference.

[PeerlessKid]

Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn

Yes, exactly.

Voldemort may not have seen James as a complete threat, but he still would have loved him dead, considering James and Lily had thrice defied him. At the time, James was without a wand, but he stood in the way to give Lily enough time to try and escape - truly heroic of him. He didn't have any way of defending himself. So yeah, his sacrifice didn't cause the same protection because he would have been killed either way. Lily had the choice, because for once in his life Voldemort did a favour for someone else and gave her the chance to live. That's the subtle difference.

There's pretty much nothing left to add after you guys. But yh totally agree it was the fact that Lily was given the choice to live