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Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain



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  #1  
Old November 4th, 2007, 12:24 am
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Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

This is to discuss Snape and Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain by D.W. Hill.


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  #2  
Old November 4th, 2007, 1:23 am
burns20002002  Female.gif burns20002002 is offline
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

There is one major factor that I believe you overlooked. Throughout the books we have rarely seen Snape show any emotion, whether anger(w/ the exception of OOtP),happiness, or sadness, he's usally quite stony-faced. I'm sure he had always been this way, however in the scenes where he discusses Lily's death w/ Dumbledore he's almost a different person. He is described as a wounded animal, with shallow breathing, and making a terrible sound, that I imagine only accompanies uncontrolable crying . His emotions were so raw and Occlumency would probably be impossible in that emotional state. I can't wait to see this scene in the movie!!


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Old November 4th, 2007, 1:43 am
Talitha  Female.gif Talitha is offline
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

D. W. Hill really caught the snitch with this one. I really think Severus Snape was the only person whom Dumbledore could precieve as an equal because they had both been down such similar paths. In response to Hill's initial query as to why Severus's friendship with Lily wasn't initally enough to advert his course toward Voldemort; I don't think the younger Severus really had any idea of what real love and friendship was because of his fractured relationships with his parents. When I read "The Prince's Tale" (several times) and the scenes between Severus and Lily, I was struck with just how posessive Severus's language was in describing their friendship, so I have the idea that because of the example set by his father, he thought that "to love" meant "to posess", and Lily (who is frankly one of the most psychologically stable characters in Harry Potter) had a strong enough sense-of-self to know that this is not the sort of friendship she wanted to pursue.


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Old November 4th, 2007, 2:22 am
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

Ah! D. W.,
As always an absolutely magical editorial. I too 'knew' the doe patronus could belong to no other than Severus Snape the instant it appeared. I find nothing to add to nor criticize your thorough analysis of SS. Thanks, and Thanks to JKR for writing such fascinating characters.

OMT



Last edited by OldMrToad; November 4th, 2007 at 2:23 am. Reason: correct spelling error
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Old November 4th, 2007, 2:28 am
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

Brilliant editorial. Who says they need stop because the books did?


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Old November 4th, 2007, 2:57 am
inkling7  Female.gif inkling7 is offline
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

The above five posts are absolutely spot on. Hooray for this editorial bring on more of a similar ilk dissecting the characters.
We aren't finished with this series by a long shot.

I also had similar theories re Snape and was gratified to see them come to fruition in the books even with a slight niggling doubt the first chapter of Deathly Hallows I felt sure some huge revelation was eventually coming to extinguish this doubt - and it did!


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Old November 4th, 2007, 5:14 am
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

I think this is a well-written editorial. I do have one point of issue. Saying Dumbledore's ability as a Legilimens master would allow him to see through Snape's lies does not gel with the story. Snape was able to lie successfully to Voldemort for years, even tell him a completely convincing story of why he had not come back to him immediately. Dumbledore is no doubt a brilliant and powerful wizard, with years of experience and cleverness behind him. I do not think it prudent to understate his enemy's abilities in this skill, however.

Voldemort, unlike Dumbledore never had a moment of compassion for anyone - all he saw were enemies and those who were scared or fanatical enough to follow him. He never trusted a soul. He would have ensured his own skills at detecting lies would be second to none. "Lord Voldemort always knows!"


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Old November 4th, 2007, 6:20 pm
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

Absolutely excellent editorial.

Quote:
Dumbledore has an appreciation for the remorse a young man can feel upon realizing that his actions and associations with the wrong person have directly led to the death of a loved one. Dumbledore’s understanding of this is due to the fact that he himself felt that very remorse all of his life over the death of his sister, Ariana. His shame was strong enough to turn him completely away from the power he sought as a young man. It caused him to devote himself wholeheartedly to the higher good. It is this most dreadful of burdens which allows Dumbledore to so quickly discern its equal in Severus Snape.
Very true. Before DH, one of my big theories was that Dumbledore trusted Snape because he had been to Grindlewald as Snape was to Voldemort - a follower, then traitor to the good. Thus, Dumbledore would understand and trust someone he saw in the same position. That's not quite how it turned out, but I love the parallel explained here even more.


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Old November 4th, 2007, 10:21 pm
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

Great editorial, but...

Quote:
"had intended for Snape to have his wand, the Elder Wand – the most powerful wand ever made. The idea is that, if Snape was still the wand’s master when he died, the power of the wand would die with him."
You got this wrong. Dumbledore idea was to be killed under his own will (that is, undefeated), so that HE (Dumbledore) could die being the last master of the wand, thus preventing an eventual Voldemort's attempt to get the it (which finally happened). That's why he ordered snape to kill him and did not tell him anything about the wand.


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Old November 5th, 2007, 12:52 am
zanaboo  Female.gif zanaboo is offline
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

Great editorial!

Would someone please refresh my memory about one thing. How did Snape know that Draco disarmed Dumbledore?


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Old November 5th, 2007, 9:03 am
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

Snape was there in the tower when Draco disarmed Dumbledore.

I believe this is what you're referring to


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Old November 5th, 2007, 1:59 pm
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liselle View Post
Snape was there in the tower when Draco disarmed Dumbledore.

I believe this is what you're referring to
Actually, only Harry was there when Draco disarmed Dumbledore. Harry rightly or wrongly assumed that because Dumbledore had taken the time to immobilize him, that gave Draco the time/chance to disarm Dumbledore (despite the power from Dumbledore that he had witnessed at the Ministry in OOP).


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Old November 5th, 2007, 3:17 pm
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

Thank you so much for writing a positive editorial about Snape and for Mugglenet to publish it on my birthday, no less. I have wanted to discuss Snape since the book came out. Snape's story is so tragic. I have read Deathly Hallows twice, but I need to read it again with Snape's trail in mind. It does seem unusual that Snape was able to get the sword to Harry with such ease but then almost gets caught short before he can deliver the final message to Harry that he is a horcrux and will need to die to truly vanquish Voldemort. Gee, what a tragic life. Doesnt therapy exist in the wizarding world? If really makes me sad that Dumbledore also ill used Snape. Snape might have lived if Dumbledore had just clued him in about the wands. Dumbledore doomed him by not giving him this final information. As we saw in the Kings Cross section, Dumbledore's plan regarding Snape and the wand didnt work out. I guess Dumbledore was in a tough spot on the tower, when he was disarmed by Draco and his plan started going awry, but he had plenty of time to think about this before the tower incident. I dont know whether Jo meant his death to be suicide, therefore, he was truly undefeated, because otherwise, Snape would have been the wand's possessor according to this plan which Dumbledore made. Again, Dumbledore was not thinking clearly at the end, but he saw that he was disarmed by Draco. He must have known then that his plan was going awry. I guess at that point he could not have done anything about it. Yet, had he only told Snape about the wand, Snape would have been in a position to come up with his own plan, later. Again, I feel Snape was ill used and I hold that against Dumbledore.


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Old November 7th, 2007, 2:55 am
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

I think that Snape was used by Dumbledore because he was in such of a state of shock that Lily died, that Dumbledore took of avantage of him. But I am glad the last book showed what he really was- it showed him having emotions...



Last edited by starlite18; November 7th, 2007 at 3:00 am.
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Old November 7th, 2007, 10:22 am
snapeforever711  Undisclosed.gif snapeforever711 is offline
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

Whatever some might say about Snape, he was an extremely intense and honorable man, and I think DD realized that as well, that once Snape gave his word to do something, he would do it or die trying to do it, and ultimately that's what he did. DD may have used him, and Snape may have felt used (he realizes this at the end of HBP), yet he knows that what DD commands him to do is the right thing, and he carries through, he also realizes that DD truly trusts him and I think he values that trust which is what helps him survive the last year, (mentally and emotionally). The Elder Wand is very murky water, Snape might have had suspicions about it, there are hints, so one can't be sure


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Old November 7th, 2007, 4:13 pm
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

I think you bang on the money with this editorial. I love how you added that Dumbledore would know the truth by looking into his own heart. Very JKRowlingesque!

Snape is the best character IMO. Maybe not my favourite, but definitly the best.Well done on a clear and concise editorial


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Old November 8th, 2007, 3:34 am
Chas  Male.gif Chas is offline
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

Thanks for a great editorial.

The more I think about it, the more I believe that Snape did not actually kill Dumbledore. A person hit by the AK curse drops on the spot. Rather, I think DD dodged the curse by throwing himself out of the tower. That way he figured that he died a natural death and his wand was not taken from him-- and Snape's soul was not damaged by a murder.

I also don't think DD realized that his wand had chosen Draco. He landed beside his wand so that ir would be logical that be buried with it. Then, he thought, its power as a Deathly Hallow would be over. DD's assumptions were wrong, however, because the wand had a mind of its own. In one of Jo's twists of plot, Harry figured enough out that he could effectively confront LV with the truth in the final contest. Returning to topic, Harry received from Snape critical pieces of information he used to construct what actually happened.

Just my theory.


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Old November 8th, 2007, 11:38 am
inkling7  Female.gif inkling7 is offline
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

Not a bad theory Chas and that scenario is quite possible. I was always suspicious of the way Albus was thrown out of the tower when we saw that others who died when AK'd just died the way Cedric Diggory did.

Poor old Snape - he wasn't vindicated until after he died.


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Old November 9th, 2007, 8:48 pm
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

You're right about DD's death...I didn't think about that until now...


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Old November 11th, 2007, 12:40 am
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Re: Snape & Dumbledore: The Unnecessary Bargain

I enjoy reading essays.

The only part I would comment on is:

Quote:
Dumbledore confirms Harry’s insight that he, Dumbledore, had intended for Snape to have his wand, the Elder Wand – the most powerful wand ever made. The idea is that, if Snape was still the wand’s master when he died, the power of the wand would die with him. The Elder wand is not something you would leave with someone whom you suspected of even the slightest power-hungry leanings or faintest traces of mixed feelings about Voldemort.

It does not appear that Dumbledore actually explained anything about his wand to Snape. If he had known, Snape would have made sure he had Dumbledore’s wand prior to killing him. He would have asked Draco where the wand was. Then, he would have asked him to summon the wand and disarmed Draco.
I don't think this shows Dumbledore' trust for Snape, but rather was part of his overall plan. Dumbledore knew that Voldemort would seek the wand and believe Snape to be the master (as he knew Snape had killed Dumbledore). However, since he didn't tell Snape about it and there was no other way Snape could find out, I don't really believe that is exhibiting much in the way of trust as Snape would never be in a position to be tempted by it even if he were power hungery (which is a trait JKR said Snape had). Nonetheless, I believe Dumbledore set Snape in that position so that he would have to face Voldemort in the end with a choice: tell Voldemort the truth of what happened (he didn't actually kill Dumbledore) and in that way spare his own life - or don't tell, remain true to Dumbledore and accept death. I won't go into the reasons why I believe that as it is outside of the scope of the essay. However, that is what I believe to have happened in relation to Snape and the Elder Wand.


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