Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.12

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by hwyla

And that it is not unusual for a teacher to point out to the other kids when one of them is doing superior work.

Fair point for that particular class. But do you not agree that Snape was unfair and a bully in other ways -- ridiculing Gryffindors for poor potions when Crabb or Goyle had much worse results, making personal judgements of Harry in the first class when all Harry was doing was taking notes, criticizes Hermione for knowing answers (or refusing to call on her), constantly insulting Neville instead of helping/encouraging him, etc.?

[MC2456]

Being a loner myself, I know what Severus feels at times. When he lost Lily that night, he didn't just lose a lover, but also his mother, sister, friend and everything she was to him. She was the world to him; she's more than just a lover, that's what I think.

He hates James, not only because James was someone he couldn't become, but also somebody who took away everything from him. I can understand the love-hate relationship with Harry, he likes Harry because he is Lily Evans' boy, but he hates Harry because he was the product of James' and Lily's love.

Have I confused anyone yet?
MC

[Colonel_Fubster]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

ridiculing Gryffindors for poor potions when Crabb or Goyle had much worse results

Do we know that he didn't ridicule Crabbe and Goyle as well? He certainly gives them detention for poor classwork, and we see very little of them compared to the Trio.

Snape&Draco, HBP "You realize that, had anybody else failed to come to my office when I had told them repeatedly to be there, Draco --" "I would've had Crabbe and Goyle with me if you hadn't put them in detention!"

making personal judgements of Harry in the first class when all Harry was doing was taking notes

I always took that as a way of deflating Harry's ego before it got out of control. Snape was witness to the excitement when Harry was Sorted, and, I think, chose a subtle method of ensuring that Harry realized that he couldn't assume he was great just because he was famous. A bit much, perhaps, but considering the way Harry's father behaved in school, I cannot blame Snape for doing this.

criticizes Hermione for knowing answers (or refusing to call on her)

This is neither unfair nor bullying. In fact, not calling on the class know-it-all is more fair, since it means the other students have to work as well, rather than relying on one person to answer every question.

constantly insulting Neville instead of helping/encouraging him

How would Snape explain such sudden warm fuzziness towards any student, let alone a Gryffindor whose parents were in the Order? Draco would certainly notice, and certainly tell his father, who would not approve, and in turn would certainly inform the returned Voldemort about such aberrant behaviour. Snape believed Dumbledore when he said that Voldemort would return (this just after the attack on the Potters) and he needed to be fully prepared for the role that Dumbledore wanted him to play. In order to do that, Snape had to keep his cover intact.

[hwyla]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Fair point for that particular class. But do you not agree that Snape was unfair and a bully in other ways -- ridiculing Gryffindors for poor potions when Crabb or Goyle had much worse results, making personal judgements of Harry in the first class when all Harry was doing was taking notes, criticizes Hermione for knowing answers (or refusing to call on her), constantly insulting Neville instead of helping/encouraging him, etc.?

Just to clarify - there's no canon in the books that Harry was taking notes - that's purely moviePotter. In fact Harry and Ron exchange a look of lifted eyebrows at the end of Snape's first speech. A look that tends to look like skepticism. This happens right before Snape goes into question mode. The movie makes Harry look like an angel taking notes. However, it's not what the book says. I'm not surprised that Snape's first opinion of Harry isn't too grand. They get off on the wrong foot because of the pain Harry felt when Voldy faced him through Quirrel's turban during the opening feast.

Again, moviePotter does something different than bookPotter. In the movie he clasps his hand to his head. Nothing about that in the book. So, if one doesn't clasp one's hand to the painful head just what does pain look like from a distance? It looks like disgust.

Then what happens? Harry turns and asks Percy about Quirrel/Snape. So, from afar we have a disgusted look from a kid who looks just like James but has been raised by Petunia (the girl who thoroughly disliked him as a kid) and is now apparently discussing Snape with another kid. Not laughing it up and having fun during the opening feast, but instead zeroing in on the teacher with a look of disgust, the one teacher whom his aunt might have actually told him about. The same aunt who once called him that Snape boy who lives down at SpinnersEnd. The aunt whom Snape would assume probably knew James well enough to hear some Snivellous stories and pass them on.

So, then comes the first potions class and here the kid is giving his pal a look of disbelief at the end of what really was a rather inspiring speech. I have no idea whether Snape had planned to ask one person all the questions originally, but I think his response to that look between Ron and Harry is that Harry is planning to surf through this class on his celebrity status and he's going to put a stop to that right quick. And I'm sure it doesn't help that it's Ron (younger brother of the twins) with whom Harry is sharing that look.

And no, I do not agree that he was a bully. I think he was a hard taskmaster, but not a bully. Really the only time I remember (and I admit my memory isn't perfect) his getting on Harry's case 'in class' that wasn't well deserved is when he gets on him about not watching Neville's work in the very first class.

And I truly don't have a problem with his calling on Harry to answer questions. He's making a point that you need to come to this class prepared. He singles out Harry because he's the famous kid that all the other kids will look to. Showing that even the BWL must do his studying reinforces that every other kid in there must do so as well.

And since Hermione knows all the answers, then the answers were apparently all in the books that Harry had for a month. As for not calling on Hermione, she's a teacher's nightmare - the kid who answers everything so all the other kids believe they can just sit by and get away without bothering to read up ahead of time. Why bother reading when the class brain will feed you word-for-word book answers in class?

I've also never seen why Harry is supposedly humiliated by these questions. Only Hermione knew the answers, so why is he supposed to be embarrassed since no one else apparently had read ahead either? Truthfully, while the answers were in the books, I rather think the point was that no one should have known the answers - that it would instill in the students the determination that THEY would all have the answers ready ahead of class next time.

And while Crabb and Goyle may not be the brightest bulbs in the class, they are rarely dangerous like Neville. How many times do we hear about their cauldrons blowing up or melting? I'm not even sure how truly bad they were since they apparently passed their Potion OWLs since Snape doesn't have them in remedial potions in bk6. Perhaps we need to go through example by example? Unfortunately I'll need to depend on someone else to bring the passages in, my books are not currently available.

However, Crabbe and Goyle are purebloods. And they grew up in Wizarding homes. They may have also had the benefit of tutoring ahead. I must admit that I don't remember specific instances where their potions are singled out as particularly bad. Believe it or not I haven't memorized the books. So I would appreciate it if someone can give the full passage about one of their bad potions.

But we also need to remember that Neville is a pureblood, so supposedly he was also home schooled. But he makes a horrendously dangerous potion out of one even Harry (who has never made a potion before in his life) thought was very simple. He manages to take a boil cure and turn it into a potion that causes boils, melting the cauldron and spilling out the contents all over the floor where it is spreading towards other students and threatening to burn through their shoes. (IF I recall it all correctly).

And he does this before Snape has said hardly a word to him. It is not Snape's 'nasty' insults that cause Neville to mess up. He truly is that incompetent. And not just in potions class. All because he doesn't read the directions correctly. I believe Snape comes to believe over the years that NO ONE can be THAT bad and that he is doing it on purpose. There's even a line where Snape outright asks Neville what he has to do to get him to understand. He's obviously quite flustered. He even precedes that by saying the two things Neville did wrong, both of which Snape had apparently just told the entire class (not just written on the board, but verbally reminded them to be careful about) before they began brewing.

I think it's also important to remember that Snape is apparently from a section of the UK that IS known to be particularly harsh in the way they talk. It is considered a good thing to be brutally honest there. What's interesting is that Neville is from the same area. I do not think there's a coincidence that Neville is almost as concerned to have the boggart in 3rd year turn into his Gran as he is about it being Snape. And truthfully Snape has never done anything as bad to Neville as his family has. Never dropped him off a pier to see if he'd drown or save himself. Or out of a window to see if he'd bounce or be hurt. And unlike Minerva (who reminded Neville in front of the class to not let anyone from the other schools know that he couldn't perform a 'SIMPLE switching spell), we don't see Snape actually insult Neville UNLESS he is actually doing something stupid at the time.

Lastly, these books are NOT set in the type of classroom that kids in the USA attend in this day and age. We are not supposed to compare the teaching methods of Hogwarts to the methods we hope our children are learning under - or at least MANY seem to hope they are. Personally, I'd prefer a tough Snape or Minerva. My favorite teachers, who taught me the most important things I learned, were more like those two (and I think Snape is VERY similar to Minerva). I despised the classes where I had to sit around and review verbs and nouns over and over and over - year after year - so that no child was left behind. No child ever got to run ahead at their own speed either. I was bored to tears.

Anyways, the setting of these books is with a school system where even in the muggle schools there is apparently corporal punishment. Harry truly believed that when Minerva went asking Quirrel if she could borrow 'Wood' that he was about to be beaten with a wooden object. And he is NOT surprised by the idea, nor outraged, nor does he find it unbelievable. That tends to imply that corporal punishment was used in his previous school. I hope he thought it would be a paddle, but 'caning' would be appropriate to 'english public school stories'. And Arthur Weasley, still has the 'marks' from a beating he received at Hogwarts as punishment some 25 years ago or so.

Remember also that Dudley's school Smeltings even had a 'knobbly stick' as part of the uniform, with the express purpose being to use it to hit other kids. The schools in these books are NOT meant to be compared to the classrooms that the kids who read the books sit in.

[Daggerstone]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Fair point for that particular class. But do you not agree that Snape was unfair and a bully in other ways -- ridiculing Gryffindors for poor potions when Crabb or Goyle had much worse results, making personal judgements of Harry in the first class when all Harry was doing was taking notes, criticizes Hermione for knowing answers (or refusing to call on her), constantly insulting Neville instead of helping/encouraging him, etc.?

Let's see the canon, shall we?

"Personal judgments of Harry":

“Ah, Yes,” he said softly, “Harry Potter. Our new — celebrity .”

“Tut, tut — fame clearly isn’t everything.”

“You — Potter — why didn’t you tell him not to add the quills? Thought he’d make you look good if he got it wrong, did you? That’s another point you’ve lost for Gryffindor.”

"All Harry was doing was taking notes":

Harry forced himself to keep looking straight into those cold eyes. He had looked through his books at the Dursleys’, but did Snape expect him to remember everything in One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi ?

“I don’t know,” said Harry quietly. “I think Hermione does, though, why don’t you try her?”

"Insulting Neville instead of encouraging him":

Neville had somehow managed to melt Seamus’s cauldron into a twisted blob, and their potion was seeping across the stone floor, burning holes in people’s shoes. Within seconds, the whole class was standing on their
stools while Neville, who had been drenched in the potion when the cauldron collapsed, moaned in pain as angry red boils sprang up all over his arms and legs.
“Idiot boy!” snarled Snape, clearing the spilled potion away with one wave of his wand. “I suppose you added the porcupine quills before taking the cauldron off the fire?”
Neville whimpered as boils started to pop up all over his nose.
“Take him up to the hospital wing,” Snape spat at Seamus.

"Refusing to call on Hermione":

At this, Hermione stood up, her hand stretching toward the dungeon ceiling.

Harry is a celebrity when he arrives at Hogwarts.

He doesn't know a single answer.

'Why don't you try her' is a comment made by a first year student to his teacher on his first ever class. Hardly endearing.

Neville blows up his cauldron and puts the entire class in danger - not exactly the kind of behaviour a teacher would 'encourage' or 'help'.

And Hermione actually stands up in the middle of a lesson to get the teacher's attention! Now, I have no idea about the UK school system but where I come from this is indeed considered impertinent - even for a first year.

And let's not forget this:

Harry told Hagrid about Snape’s lesson. Hagrid, like Ron, told Harry not to worry about it, that Snape liked hardly any of the students.

So, both Ron and Hagrid thought it normal behaviour for Snape.

[hwyla]

Just to add - since I could not remember any particular instances where Harry remarks on Crabb and Goyle's potions I checked 'Willow' which has the quotes up through book 5 (in other words through OWLs and so ALL of the possible times Harry would actually see Crabb or Goyle make a potion.

There is not one comment by Harry (or Ron for that matter) on how bad C&Gs potions are. In fact, C&G laugh when Harry doesn't know the answer to the Bezoar question - which implies to me that THEY knew the answer. I'd say that Snape doesn't call them on their potions because they are not making unacceptable potions. Unless, of course, Willow missed a quote. If so, and you know of one, someone please post it.

Add to this, the only indication I could find where Goyle's cauldron exploded is the time when Harry threw fireworks into it. Since the Swelling Solution in it apparently swelled bit of people where it landed, he apparently brewed a successful potion in that case. Proven by the fact that the premade antidote that Snape had waiting worked and reduced all cases of the swellings.

As for the rest of the Slytherins, I think there were 4 of them in NEWT Potions (IF I recall correctly). That's 4 out of approx. 10 - almost half of the house made it into NEWT Potions, apparently with Outstandings on the OWLs (since nothing was put about ahead of time that there would be lowered requirements for it now that Sluggie was teaching)

[Moriath]

I can't believe I'm saying this but more Snape, less Harry, please.

[hwyla]

I'm sorry if you felt that was too much Harry, however I believe it was necessary to mention the scene as the previous poster said that Snape ignored Crabbe & Goyle's bad potions (thereby proving his favoritism), when as far as I can see we have no instances of such in the books. I will edit the comment about Harry's 'luck'. I hope that will suffice?

[The_Green_Woods]

Brilliant posts hwyla, Dags!

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

I do not think one's status as a bully can be completely comparable to that of a traitor. A bully involves insulting, mocking, etc. to a person or people - whether a person is a bully is generally an opinion, not fact (as we are demonstrating with this debate). Meanwhile, I think being a traitor is much more straightforward.

That was not the comparison. If a character in the books felt an opinion, it must be canon and true for that character, you said. I disagreed for while that is true of certain instances, it is not of certain others. The example I gave you was to show that, if Harry thought Snape to be a traitor, that did not make Snape one in the Books, not even for the time Harry and others thought he was one, because Snape had reasons to act the way he did.

I feel the same about Snape being called a bully. I think there is enough in canon to show why Snape acted the way he did to Harry and indeed others and while Harry may have thought him to be nasty or Sirius may have thought him to be a DE (OOTP), or Ron may have called him a bully, he does not become one automatically, unless there are reasons to show that.

Assuming Snape was a cruel bully, how did Sirius allow him to teach his Godson Occlumency. Sirius was as insulting as could be to Snape, calling him a DE, and saying that even if Dumbledore believed him, he Sirius would not. And he still allowed Harry to learn Occlumency from Snape. Apart from Sirius's attitude, for me, this shows how much Sirius trusted Snape. That he believed Snape would teach Occlumency to Harry, properly and correctly, and would not abuse what would be exposure to very personal memories of Harry's.

Would Sirius send Harry to Snape if he thought Snape was a bully? For being a bully implies that Snape would probably delight in Harry's memories and use them to mock Harry. But while Sirius shows a lot of predictable hate; he is at a deeper level, trusting Snape, knowing that Snape would not bully Harry or ill treat him or misuse what he sees in Harry's mind. Seeing Harry's memories would make Harry vulnerable to Snape and Sirius was trusting Snape to do the right thing, even as he was insulting Snape and calling him a DE. I mean how strange is that?

Even after Harry saw the pensieve memories, Sirius was like 'How dare Snape stop the classes' than saying it was a good thing, because Snape was a bully.

I think not only Dumbledore, but also Sirius, Molly and other characters show a remarkable silence aqnd through that a trust, when it comes to Snape's teaching methods and interactions with their kids and other students in general. Only the students grumble at Snape's strictness; not the parents, who in canon have full faith in Snape; who believe Snape does not abuse their children. Molly asks Harry to address Snape with respect in OOTP (I forget which chapter) and she would not do that, if she thought Snape was abusing Harry and her kids.

Students always grumble at teachers who are demanding and who are no nonsense teachers. Just because Harry or Ron call Snape names in canon, that does not necessarily make it true IMO.

Therefore, I still believe that a character who thinks Snape is a bully cannot be wrong, since it is a personal opinion. However, my point is that if one individual thought Snape was a bully, then Snape should be qualified as a bully, at the least, to that character (e.g. Neville).

It depends on what the character did to deserve Snape's or indeed another professor's ire. Would you call McGonagall a bully and say she was cruel and abusive towards her students, for her very negative comment towards Neville in GOF, when she asked him to keep quiet and not show the other schools that he could perform a simple switching spell? (which hwyla pointed out in her post). And she makes quite a few of them over the years, towards Neville IMO.

As I have said (and will say later in this post), I do not think Snape's interactions with students interfered or could have (except in extreme cases) with his role as a spy.
Again, I do not think Snape's role as a spy would have ever been jeopardized by his teaching methods.

Could you say how?

No, Snape could have easily made an excuse as to why he could not deliver Harry. As I said before, mentioning Dumbledore's watch over Harry would likely have done the trick.

Well, Voldemort would ask the impossible and he would not care. Draco's job IMO was an example. If Snape was all kindness for example, Voldemort would simply ask Snape to bring Harry to him, using the trust harry had with Snape, and really he would not care about Dumbledore IMO.

Also, I do not necessarily think Snape should have sought to be best friends with Harry (I used this more as a hyperbolic situation). I simply claim that Snape could have been nicer (which would not be difficult, since he was so horrible to him) to Harry and many of the other students. I certainly believe Snape could be indifferent towards the Gryffindors without jeopardizing his role as spy (which I do not think was ever in danger, as I have already stated).

The thing is I believe Snape was okay with everyone. He was not simpering sweet; that was not his character, he was sarcastic, harsh and at times nasty. I find nothing wrong in that. But a bully? For me words like bully mean cruel and abusive. And I don't think Snape was like that, towards Harry or indeed anyone. I have given my explanation above for believing why.

I think I simply misunderstood your comment. I will not reply, since I think we will just go around in a circle, confusing ourselves!

Okay.

I think Snape willingly gave Voldemort any memory he desired, with a few exceptions, so Snape put up the proper defenses against those particular memories and was unharmed by the rest of Voldemort's probing.

Could very well be. I thought Legilimency could be both painful and painless depending upon the caster.

Then why did Voldemort not try to do this in the books? As I said, I do not think a friendly relationship between Snape and Harry would have changed the risk involved in Snape delivering Harry to Voldemort.

Because everyone knew Harry hated Snape and it looked as if Snape did not like Harry very much either IMO. If Voldemort asked Snape to bring Harry to him, Snape would have said, sorry, but the brat will not come anywhere near me; there is no way I can bring him to you. And all the DE kids will agree, because everyone knew Harry hated Snape (because of Snape's attitude); Harry hated Snape enough to wish Snape dead in HBP IMO.

Based on Dumbledore's comment about Slughorn's botched memory, I think memories can be tampered with much more undetectably than the example we see in the books - undetectable to the point that Voldemort would not know the difference, especially when those memories are controlled by a master Occlumens like Snape.

I disagree. There is this dense fog or an unnatural darkness when a memory is covered or tampered, which Voldemort having done this quite a few times would know at once IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Fair point for that particular class. But do you not agree that Snape was unfair and a bully in other ways -- ridiculing Gryffindors for poor potions when Crabb or Goyle had much worse results, making personal judgements of Harry in the first class when all Harry was doing was taking notes, criticizes Hermione for knowing answers (or refusing to call on her), constantly insulting Neville instead of helping/encouraging him, etc.?

I agree. Snape's inner POV and purpose was not given in canon, but his methods were detailed and I too feel he behaved in a bullying manner toward the children. I don't feel it was necessary for Snape to humiliate Harry before the class, whatever his reason. Snape's comments had the Slytherins 'shaking with laughter', and so I feel he was aware of the impact of his behavior was having on Harry - Snape too had experienced being laughed at when he was young (OOTP) and realized how humiliating that could be, imo. I felt his treatment of Neville, Hermione and his subsequent treatment of Harry in this scene was further evidence of his character in this light. While I don't personally feel his purpose was to be instructive, even if I believed it was, I would still find his behavior/methodology inappropriately bullying in nature, imo. In CoS, The Whomping Willow, Snape is described as a "cruel, sarcastic" professor who was "disliked by everybody except the students from his own house." I agree with that passage based on Snape's behavior toward the children in the canon.

[Daggerstone]

Thanks, TGW.

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

In CoS, The Whomping Willow, Snape is described as a "cruel, sarcastic" professor who was "disliked by everybody except the students from his own house." I agree with that passage based on Snape's behavior toward the children in the canon.

Ah, thank you for reminding me of that one wick!

Professor Severus Snape was Harry’s least favorite teacher. Harry also happened to be Snape’s least favorite student. Cruel, sarcastic, and disliked by everybody except the students from his own house (Slytherin), Snape taught Potions.
“Maybe he’s ill!” said Ron hopefully.
“Maybe he’s left ,” said Harry, “because he missed out on the Defense Against Dark Arts job again!”
“Or he might have been sacked !” said Ron enthusiastically. “I mean, everyone hates him —”
“Or maybe,” said a very cold voice right behind them, “he’s waiting to hear why you two didn’t arrive on the school train.”

So, the feeling was mutual. And please note the difference between the narrator's description ("disliked by everybody") and character's description ("everybody hates him").

The passing comments Snape happened to overhear did nothing to endear the pair to him further.

As for the students whose Head of House he was... you don't suppose they might have disliked him less than others because they got to see more than his 'teacher persona'?

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by hwyla

I think it's also important to remember that Snape is apparently from a section of the UK that IS known to be particularly harsh in the way they talk. It is considered a good thing to be brutally honest there. What's interesting is that Neville is from the same area.

Well, I'm from the UK (south east England) and I don't care for harsh talk from anyone. I love blunt-talking Northeners but that's not the same as harshness.

I often love Snape's sarcasm though. Yes, I do.

But I don't agree with how he handles Harry and Neville (or Hermione).

I hope this is not too much Harry but both he and Severus are my favourite characters. And I'm pretty much on Harry's side in this debate about Snape's attitude to Harry in the classroom. (Except when Harry really does do something awful, like Sectumsempra'ing Draco!)

Severus just handled Harry completely wrong. Period. I believe it was his fault they got off to such a bad start.

Severus is an adult. Harry is an orphaned kid. The onus was on Severus not to jump to conclusions about the son of Lily and James. As Albus tries to remind him. "You see what you want to see, Severus." Indeed.

I also think Severus handled Neville completely wrong. The worst thing you can do to an incompetent pupil is publicly humiliate them in class. I know, because I've been a Neville. I love Snape to bits but he doesn't get a pass card from me on this one. I will call him on this just as I will call Minerva on the times when I suspect she is showing favouritism to her beloved Gryffindors.

And of course I don't think that Snape's classroom treatment of Harry and Neville makes him The Most Evil Character in Canon. Absolutely not! For truly evil behaviour, I look to Bellatrix's sadism -- or Peter's treachery -- or Voldemort (obviously). Or to Lucius, who stood and laughed while a 14 year old Harry was brutally tortured by Voldemort.

And there is the other side of Severus: the side that was determined to protect Harry and aid Albus against Voldemort, for Lily's sake.

The schools in these books are NOT meant to be compared to the classrooms that the kids who read the books sit in.

That is quite true. Corporal punishment was outlawed many years ago in British schools. So Rowling's Muggle Britain is as much a fantasy world as her Wizarding World.

And Hogwarts is a 1950s British boarding school, basically.

[Daggerstone]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

Severus just handled Harry completely wrong. Period. I believe it was his fault they got off to such a bad start.

Snape's? Really?

It happened very suddenly. The hook-nosed teacher looked past Quirrell’s turban straight into Harry’s eyes — and a sharp, hot pain shot across the scar on Harry’s forehead.
“Ouch!” Harry clapped a hand to his head.
“What is it?” asked Percy.
“N-nothing.”
The pain had gone as quickly as it had come. Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had gotten from the teacher’s look — a feeling that he didn’t like Harry at all.
“Who’s that teacher talking to Professor Quirrell?” he asked Percy.
“Oh, you know Quirrell already, do you? No wonder he’s looking so nervous, that’s Professor Snape. He teaches Potions, but he doesn’t want to — everyone knows he’s after Quirrell’s job. Knows an awful lot about the Dark Arts, Snape.”
Harry watched Snape for a while, but Snape didn’t look at him again.

I must respectfully disagree...

[Pearl_Took]

So this puts the blame on Harry, for something Harry couldn't help.

I'm not buying it. Never have, never will.

To be clear, I am not saying it's all Snape's fault either, that first misunderstanding. But I am saying he should have handled Harry better in the classroom, because he's the adult, in a position of power.

Neither am I claiming that Harry is never at fault as a pupil. Certainly not!

But Albus's words to Severus -- "You see what you want to see, Severus" -- are significant for me.

(And sometimes those words apply to Harry, of course.)

[Daggerstone]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

But Albus's words to Severus -- "You see what you want to see, Severus" -- are significant for me.

I couldn't agree more with the statement... but could Snape 'help it' if what he saw when he look at Harry was James? I've quoted their first academic experience with each other in one of my previous posts.

What we are discussing is whether Snape should have gone out of his way to treat Harry nicer than he treated his other students (please see Hagrid's comment on Snape's usual behaviour in the very same post I referred to), and my personal opinion...

He had no reason to

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by Daggerstone

I couldn't agree more with the statement... but could Snape 'help it' if what he saw when he look at Harry was James?

Yes. Of course he could 'help' it. He's an adult. And while there may well be a wounded, damaged child Sev inside the adult Snape, an emotionally mature person would be able to put aside their emotional baggage and not behave as if young Harry is nothing more than James Mark Two. Whatever his history with the child's father, he should have been able to look past it. Why couldn't he see the Lily in Harry, for example, if he was unable to accept the James in Harry? (I think he does see the Lily in Harry at the very end, mind you. )

But then Snape is not written as that kind of mature, emotionally well-adjusted character. Which is fine, of course. I happen to like him as JKR wrote him

What we are discussing is whether Snape should have gone out of his way to treat Harry nicer than he treated his other students (please see Hagrid's comment on Snape's usual behaviour in the very same post I referred to), and my personal opinion...

He had no reason to

Of course he had no reason to treat Harry 'nicer'. That is not in dispute. We are not saying that Harry should have received 'special' treatment ... (although Albus often does, in fact, do this. )

To me, Snape often singles Harry out -- and even if he did think the boy was in danger of becoming James Potter Mark Two, he goes about it in completely the wrong way.

In my opinion, obviously.

[The_Green_Woods]

DH - TPT '-mediocre, arrogant as his father, a determined rule breaker, delighted to find himself famous, attention seeking and impertinent -'

I wonder when this conversation took place between Snape and Dumbledore in PS/SS.

I am tempted to think it was after Halloween, after Snape's first class with Harry and the troll incident.

In Snape's first class, as Daggerstone pointed out, Harry's remark was pretty rude and defiant IMO.

PS/SS 'I don't know,' Harry said quietly. 'I think Hermione does, though, why don't you ask her?'

This would get the student into trouble here in India for rudeness. If a student does not know what the teacher is asking him or her; they simply sit/stand and blink like a dunderhead at the teacher, before venturing to say softly that, Sorry, they don't know. And then get the teacher's pearls of wisdom about why they should study everyday.

Answering like Harry would place the student immediately on the teacher's rude boys list IMO.

Mediocre - could be true at that point for Harry, for Dumbledore also says the same in a better manner. Reasonably talented he uses.

Arrogant as his father, delighted to find himself famous, attention seeking and impertinent - I think this is about Harry's retort to Snape in that first class, which made Snape think that Harry was aware of his fame and he was answering so because he thought he could get away with it. Snape could have very well thought just like his father before him.

A determined rule breaker - I think this could refer to the troll incident, where Harry and Ron instead of going to McGonagall, went in search of Hermione themselves and by doing so, were breaking rules and placing their lives in danger.

Dumbledore also says other teachers find him modest and likable. But then Harry never answered to them the way he did to Snape IMO.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

In Snape's first class, as Daggerstone pointed out, Harry's remark was pretty rude and defiant IMO.

I'm on Harry's side in this 100%. Firstly, I don't find him that rude and defiant. He speaks quietly, not rudely. Secondly, it would actually be very tempting to be rude and defiant, when the teacher is making all sorts of unfounded and unfair assumptions about me. I am not of the school of thought that thinks we should just sit there meekly and not challenge unfairness.

This would get the student into trouble here in India for rudeness. If a student does not know what the teacher is asking him or her; they simply sit/stand and blink like a dunderhead at the teacher, before venturing to say softly that, Sorry, they don't know. And then get the teacher's pearls of wisdom about why they should study everyday.

I find Harry's reaction pretty darned reasonable, actually. And this just ignores the fact that Snape was simply being unfair -- assuming Harry was an arrogant know-it-all who hadn't bothered to prepare for his lesson properly, when the truth was that Harry had been unable to do so (because of living with the Dursleys). It's like Snape has already made his mind up, and Harry suffers the consequences.

Answering like Harry would place the student immediately on the teacher's rude boys list IMO.

And Snape gets a free passcard for all those incredible assumptions he is making about Harry in that first instance? This is just not ... fair, IMO.

Snape could have very well thought just like his father before him.

I'm sure that was what Snape thought. And it was his problem. He never gave Harry a fair chance, and Harry -- being only a kid -- often played right into that. So he ended up not giving Snape a fair chance either.

Dumbledore also says other teachers find him modest and likable. But then Harry never answered to them the way he did to Snape IMO.

That's because Snape gave him reason to.

I am not about putting all the blame on Snape or all the blame on Harry. They're both my favourite characters. If I think Harry is being unfair, I will say so! And when I think Snape is being unfair, I will say so too.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

I'm on Harry's side in this 100%. Firstly, I don't find him that rude and defiant. He speaks quietly, not rudely. Secondly, it would actually be very tempting to be rude and defiant, when the teacher is making all sorts of unfounded and unfair assumptions about me. I am not of the school of thought that thinks we should just sit there meekly and not challenge unfairness.

I find Harry's reaction pretty darned reasonable, actually. And this just ignores the fact that Snape was simply being unfair -- assuming Harry was an arrogant know-it-all who hadn't bothered to prepare for his lesson properly, when the truth was that Harry had been unable to do so (because of living with the Dursleys). It's like Snape has already made his mind up, and Harry suffers the consequences.

As I pointed out, this is in India. I don't know how it is in the UK, but here 11 year olds are not allowed to speak their minds, and tell the teacher to ask his questions of another student, because they don't know the answer. It was not whether Harry was quiet or loud, those words would be taken as disrespectful 100 times out of a 100 times here.

I know in my son's school which is a Christian Convent run by Catholic Fathers, he or any other boy would get a very sarcastic telling off, if he dared to speak so to his teacher. And if he continued to do it, the parent would be called after a couple of times.

That to speak their minds and to tell a teacher to ask the question of another student is the right attitude, is a new and a novel concept for me, I'm afraid. It did not happen when I was a kid, (we would have had the ruler on our palm I guess); it did not happen when my daughter was in School and it's not happening now when my son is in Std VIII.

I am pretty much astonished that there are Schools and teachers who allow students to speak their minds in a pretty defiant manner and tell their teachers to ask students who know the answers instead of themselves, and they would not be thought of as rude or disrespectful by the teacher.

And Snape gets a free passcard for all those incredible assumptions he is making about Harry in that first instance? This is just not ... fair, IMO.

He is stating his opinion based on his classes with Harry and the troll incident IMO. I don't see anything wrong in that.

I'm sure that was what Snape thought. And it was his problem. He never gave Harry a fair chance, and Harry -- being only a kid -- often played right into that. So he ended up not giving Snape a fair chance either.

I don't see it as a problem, frankly. I see that Snape is worried Harry may turn reckless like James or Sirius, because he knows Harry cannot afford to be reckless, if he is to stay alive. He knows Voldemort is to return. After the troll incident, he may have felt worried that Harry could be rash or reckless which could get him killed, just like his father (I think Snape may be referring to the selection of SK, which in PS/SS everyone including Snape thought was Sirius; a decision which Snape believed got James and Lily killed). And when Harry ran after the troll, I think it must have made Snape worried IMO.

I am not about putting all the blame on Snape or all the blame on Harry. They're both my favourite characters. If I think Harry is being unfair, I will say so! And when I think Snape is being unfair, I will say so too.

In this conversation, I really don't think Snape was being unfair; as I wrote in the above post, I think he had his reasons and concerns and worries, which prompted him to speak as he did IMO. Which IMO is not wrong.

[kittling]

To me its not about blaming Harry or Severus but looking at the dynamic between them and how the same situation might look very different to each of them.

Like Hwyla's example at the first sorting - Harry’s reactions were simple reactions to what happened and fairly innocent ones at that, but I think the picture she painted of how it look to Severus was probably fairly accurate.

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

Yes. Of course he could 'help' it. He's an adult.

Adults aren't less susceptible to the effects of projection or transference than kids (one could say that their age actually counts against them! ) the whole point is that these are not conscious motivations but unconscious motivations and therefore are not available to the conscious mind to analyse unless something or someone causes them to become conscious. Others are often more aware of these then we are ourselves, so it isn’t surprising that readers can see when Severus is acting under their influence when He himself can’t – that’s normal