Was Ron a powerful wizard?

[Mad_Druid]

Originally Posted by HermioneCrolla

Similarly, with Ron, it may have taken him a little longer but he too managed a patronus at the age of 15.

The fact that so many students were able to perform a Patronus by their 7th, or even 5th, year suggests to me that as a whole, the ability of teenage witches and wizards may have been underestimated quite a bit. I do think that Harry probably had a natural affinity for that type of magic and extreme circumstances helped him to realise his potential a lot faster than he otherwise would have.

To answer the question, I think that Ron was a perfectly capable wizard and that lack of confidence and a tendency toward laziness were his main problems.

[cybobbie]

Originally Posted by Mad_Druid

To answer the question, I think that Ron was a perfectly capable wizard and that lack of confidence and a tendency toward laziness were his main problems.

I agree with you, the lack of confidence was something that I always got on him but while answering here I forgot about his tendency to some laziness. Good point.

[PotionA]

Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack

My explanation for their survival is largely due to the actions and stupidity of other characters.

That in no way equates to either of them being powerful in their own right.

The term "powerful" doesn't necessarily have to be taken literally when it comes to the Trio. Harry's power is in his will and his ability to struggle and see things through, Hermione has the intelligence and memory, and Ron's power resides in his strength in character and loyalty to those he loves. When taken literally, they are still deemed talented considering they managed to get themselves out of some very tight spots.

Ron is the glue, the heart and soul of the Trio, and his absence had caused both Harry and Hermione an unbelievable amount of pain as was seen in DH. Considering the impact that Ron has, not to mention his input, his dedication and his aptitude in magic, he is undeniably a powerful wizard.

[juicesteen]

Originally Posted by PotionA

Ron is the glue, the heart and soul of the Trio, and his absence had caused both Harry and Hermione an unbelievable amount of pain as was seen in DH. Considering the impact that Ron has, not to mention his input, his dedication and his aptitude in magic, he is undeniably a powerful wizard.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Not to mention the fact that it has been said throughout the series that a full Patronus takes quite a powerful wizard. By the same token, this means that many wizards are powerful, yes - but Ron managed to achieve this at quite a young age. This is all in addition to the aforementioned personality traits, which we know many wizards - Patronus or not - don't possess.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

So you don't believe that Harry's Patronus charm, that drove off a hundred dementors at the lake in PoA, was an indication of his potential power?

No, I don't. There are several reasons for that. One - Jo came back in OOTP and showed that it was no big deal to be able to produce a corporeal patronus because the majority of the DA is able to learn how to do that as well - some even better than Harry. The message given was that the adults were underestimating what the kids were actually capable of, IMO.

Two - the claim that many adults had difficulty with the patronus charm was proven false in later books by the fact that everyone in the Order was able to do the charm and used it as a secure means of communication. Not only were they able to produce a corporeal patronus, they were also able to make their patronus speak to communicate with each other.

Three - Harry was nowhere near the dementors he was driving away in POA. He was safely across the lake and did not suffer the usual effects of feeling depression, hearing his mother screaming, etc... Again, as was shown with the DA in OOTP, producing a corporeal patronus when dementors were not around was not very difficult at all.

Four - in DH, Harry is unable to maintain the "happy thoughts" necessary to even produce his patronus in the face of 100 dementors during the final battle. He was not a safe distance away where he didn't feel the effect like he was in POA and the outcome was very different with Harry being unable to even cast the charm. Ron and Hermione both manage to produce their patronuses, but they both flicker and fade away fairly quickly. It was Luna, Neville, and Ernie who were able to produce their patronuses to save the trio from the dementors and Luna helped Harry produce his by distracting him from the terrible effect of the dementors.

The only thing that Harry learning the patronus charm in POA showed was that Harry was given an advantage over the other students in his year by being taught something that they were not, IMO. From what we are shown in the remainder of the series, I have no doubt that, if Lupin had taught the patronus charm to the class as a whole instead of singling Harry out for private lessons, that the majority of the third year DADA class would have been able to do the charm as well as or better than Harry did.

Harry was not shown to be a very powerful wizard in terms of his magical ability, IMO - at least, not any more powerful than anyone else among his peers. Nor was he ever shown to be any more powerful than Ron or Hermione. Overall, the three of them were shown to be equals in terms of their magical ability. Whether they were more powerful than anyone else among their peers is unknown because we have nothing to compare that to. But with what we are shown in the series, I would say that all three of them were fairly average - maybe slightly above average - in terms of their magical ability overall.

Sorry, but the previous generation didn't seem any better. And since we're not given the benefit of seeing how they accomplished their magic, we have no way of knowing if they were learning from others or using/building on magic invented by the generation that preceded them. And in the end the trio was largely the motivating factor in the defeat of Voldemort. Not too shabby.

I would disagree because we are given the circumstances of the Marauders becoming animagi and creating the Marauder's Map. Human transfiguration was something that was not taught until sixth or seventh year - Hermione explained that in GOF - and even then it was in the context of turning humans into objects rather than the animagus transformation. The animagus transformation was not taught to students below NEWT level.

In regards to the map, I would say that whether they built upon achievements done by others is irrelevant because every idea has some kind of inspiration and is built upon something someone else has done in some way. They still show a great deal of talent and skill in creating something new with an impressive bit of magic involved. The Marauders Map was unique and we were never shown any other object like it - and the reactions from Crouch Jr. and Dumbledore regarding the map would indicate that there was no other magical object like it, IMO.

Harry does defeat Voldemort in the end - and that certainly adds to his fame - but he doesn't defeat Voldemort because he was a powerful wizard. He defeated Voldemort on the basis of a technicality because Voldemort was using the Elder wand and Harry was the true master of the wand. Harry defeated Voldemort with a simple spell they learned in their second year at Hogwarts - Expelliarmus. It didn't come down to who was more powerful in terms of magical ability - it came down to which wizard was the true master of the Elder wand.

But getting back to Ron's power, though I'd guess above average, I think JKR gave us enough indications to show that Harry would end up the most powerful of the three of them.

As I said before, I think all three of them were shown to be fairly equal in terms of their magical ability. Each of them has an area that is a particular strength or weakness, but that balances out when they work together so they do make a formidable opponent when working together as a team. Individually, I'd say they were fairly average overall - maybe slightly above average - but we don't really have any means to measure that because we aren't given any kind of basis for what would constitute as average in the wizarding world.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Although we are talking about power, not smarts....

....as you bring this up, do you really think that Ron could be as smart as Hermione? There is more than schoolwork involved in smarts. I don't think Ron's at the same level as Hermione, and while you can learn from books, other things can't be taught. Some examples -- Ron asking Harry if he cast the doe patronus, when he knows Harry's is a stag; asking Aberforth if he sent the doe patronus, when Aberforth had just managed to fool the DE's with his goat patronus ("Brains like that, you could be a Death Eater, son"); Ron himself to Rosie: "Thank God you inherited your mother's brains". That being said, Ron's got a fair amount of street smarts, and as you say with a bit more effort at studying could have done better. He didn't work to his potential, but I don't think he's close to Hermione when it comes to smarts.

Actually, I would say that both Ron and Harry could have achieved the exact same thing if they had been as diligent as Hermione in regards to studying. It's possible that they could have done even better because they are not that far behind her even though they both put considerably less effort into their own studying than she did. Hermione got O's on her OWLs with one E while Harry and Ron got mostly E's on their OWLs - in the subjects that mattered to them at least. They didn't put anywhere near as much effort into their studies as Hermione did, but their grades were very close to hers anyway. I would liken that to Hermione getting A's and Ron and Harry getting B's - going by the US grading system. As such, I have no doubt that Harry and Ron would have been able to at least get the same grades as Hermione - possibly better - if they had put the same amount of effort into their studies that she did because they come very close to the same grades with only a fraction of that effort.

Hermione's "intelligence" was not a matter of her being naturally smart or gifted. She worked very hard to get good grades by memorizing her textbooks and going above and beyond what was required in reading other books and memorizing the information from them. Memorization and the ability to retain information is good, but it's not necessarily a sign of intelligence. Just as grades are not an accurate measure of a person's intelligence because there are other factors involved - like how much time the person spent studying. Hermione's tendency to rely on books and the information she memorized was beneficial for some situations, but it was a hindrance in others because she was incapable of reasoning on her own without a book telling her how it was supposed to be. In that respect, she was very narrow minded and that holds her back in a lot of areas because she was unwilling to consider any idea that was not explained in a book or at least confirmed by an authority figure she respected. Her grades were excellent and she was very good at memorizing information - but there is a lot more to intelligence than getting good grades and memorizing things, IMO.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Good points. Academic marks are important, the more you understand and learn, the better equipped to use your magical skills. But we see in Fred & George, not the best grades -- although they were paying attention and doing research on their for what they're interested in. As Harry said, Fred & George really know their stuff. So actual marks don't tell the whole story.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by cardinalguy

Strangely, his disloyalty in DH stems from loyalty to his family, while there's evidence his row in GoF comes not from jealousy but from the belief that Harry didn't want him around anymore.

That's a good point. I don't see that as strange though. The Weasleys were a very close knit family - even Percy demonstrated that in the end when he realized how wrong he had been. So, when it appeared that Harry didn't care if Ginny was killed in the forest or if another of Ron's siblings had been injured, it made sense that Ron would get angry about that - particularly while he was wearing the locket and being influenced by it.

I'd say the same for the argument in GOF because that did play on Ron's insecurities - and the end result was that he was even more insecure after that argument than he was prior to it. Prior to the argument in GOF, Ron was more insecure about whether what he did would be noticed - he never really questioned his own abilities. After the argument, he started questioning his own abilities and his confidence in himself decreased even further.

Originally Posted by juicesteen

I don't think he was powerful, I don't even think that Harry was powerful. That, however, is the point. While their skill didn't match that of Voldemort, they had something else. That was Jo's whole message: power and skill aren't everything. Ron had passion, compassion and loyalty among other things. Voldemort did not.

That's an excellent point. I never felt that Jo was trying to show that any of them was super powerful. I agree that the overall message is that power and skill are not everything. Love, compassion, courage, and loyalty were more significant in the end, IMO.

[Lorena]

Do you think that one must be a powerful wizard to become an auror?

I think that there are different levels of powerful-ness. DD is at the top in my opinion

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Hermione's "intelligence" was not a matter of her being naturally smart or gifted.

Actually, it is. She is quite intelligent and gifted. In their 1st year she solves a logic puzzle that Snape put together involving poison. She was only 11 years old at the time. They don't teach logic at Hogwarts or muggle primary schools, so it can't be put down to studying. The girl has serious brainpower. The sorting hat wanted to put her in Ravenclaw.

Originally Posted by Lorena

Do you think that one must be a powerful wizard to become an auror?

I think that there are different levels of powerful-ness. DD is at the top in my opinion

I think it has more to do with skill than power. You seem to need a fair amount of skill in all disciplines, and a good gut instinct.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Actually, it is. She is quite intelligent and gifted. In their 1st year she solves a logic puzzle that Snape put together involving poison. She was only 11 years old at the time. They don't teach logic at Hogwarts or muggle primary schools, so it can't be put down to studying. The girl has serious brainpower. The sorting hat wanted to put her in Ravenclaw.

To clarify - I wasn't saying that Hermione was not intelligent at all. However, I don't see her as more intelligent than anyone else either because she was the type of person who put a great deal of effort into studying and memorizing what she read word for word - not just what was being taught, but with pretty much everything. Her fear of failure is likely a large part of that because Hermione appears to feel that it was necessary to prove herself constantly - same goes for her almost obsessive need to be right about everything. She is fairly obsessive about her grades and getting the best grades in the year was not just an achievement to be proud of for her - it was a necessity for her to see herself as worthwhile. Hermione is book smart because that was what she saw as worthwhile and worked hard to be book smart - if it wasn't in a book, it was not important to her way of thinking so she disregarded it. Her book smarts are beneficial in some situations, but a hindrance in others.

In that respect, I would put her ability to solve logic puzzles down to studying as well because Hermione was the type of person who felt it necessary to prove herself and was constantly studying/memorizing whatever she could get her hands on because of that. They didn't teach Alchemy at Hogwarts either, but Hermione felt it necessary to study the subject. I think Hermione would have seen that as a useful skill in terms of studying and getting the best grades so I can see her as the type of person who would do logic puzzles as a means to improve her performance in school.

With all of that in mind, I have no doubt that both Harry and Ron could have accomplished the same things if they had put the same amount of effort into studying that Hermione did. Their grades were very close to hers even without the extra effort - and there are occasions when Harry gets a better grade and Ron gets the same grade as Hermione because they did put that extra effort into their studying. I think both of them showed that they were capable of doing that - they simply chose not to most of the time because they didn't see it as necessary and were rather lazy about school work.

I think it has more to do with skill than power. You seem to need a fair amount of skill in all disciplines, and a good gut instinct.

I agree.

[PotionA]

Originally Posted by Lorena

I think that there are different levels of powerful-ness. DD is at the top in my opinion.

I agree with this. Dumbledore was a huge believer in certain acts as being more powerful than any magic in physical form. Ron's loyalty and willingness to sacrifice himself for his friends is a different breed of power all by itself.

Originally Posted by juicesteen

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Not to mention the fact that it has been said throughout the series that a full Patronus takes quite a powerful wizard. By the same token, this means that many wizards are powerful, yes - but Ron managed to achieve this at quite a young age. This is all in addition to the aforementioned personality traits, which we know many wizards - Patronus or not - don't possess.

Very true. Additionally, Ron has a very strategic mind, and it is displayed in his chess skills and also his idea about disguising the ghoul as himself. He also imitated Harry's Parseltongue to open up the Chamber of Secrets to collect the Basilisk fangs, and it was his plan to do so. His ideas represent his talent and they are crucial to the Trio.

[MC2456]

I think Ron's better at the practical side of magic. He's able to keep his cool when the others fumble-Harry with his impulsiveness and Hermione with her freaking out. He is also loyal, brave and friendly for the most part, and I'm pretty sure that pure magic isn't the real markings of a powerful wizard. It is the choices they make at adversity, and Ron's made pretty good choices.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by MC2456

I think Ron's better at the practical side of magic. He's able to keep his cool when the others fumble-Harry with his impulsiveness and Hermione with her freaking out. He is also loyal, brave and friendly for the most part, and I'm pretty sure that pure magic isn't the real markings of a powerful wizard. It is the choices they make at adversity, and Ron's made pretty good choices.

I agree. There were times that Ron fumbled as well, but I think that's to be expected - everybody makes mistakes. However, I think Ron was always at his best in situations where he did not have time to think and second guess himself. His instincts were very good and, in those situations where he acted on instinct, he generally did very well.

[Brigid]

 In response to Lorena's question: Odes one have to be a powerful Wizard to become an auror?

I think Ron is good Auror material in that in spirte of being afraid someones he goes forward.. like with the spiders.I think that his loyalty for friends, Hogwwarts, and his housegive him the strength for what he needs to do.. and that strength and loyalty has a power of it's own, not just sheer force...but driven by love, and nothing is stronger than that...I think that's something Rowling wanted to say.

[mariai]

Originally Posted by Brigid

I think Ron is good Auror material in that in spirte of being afraid someones he goes forward.. like with the spiders.I think that his loyalty for friends, Hogwwarts, and his housegive him the strength for what he needs to do.. and that strength and loyalty has a power of it's own, not just sheer force...but driven by love, and nothing is stronger than that...I think that's something Rowling wanted to say.

I totally agree. I think one of Rowling's main points throughout the books is to demonstrate how power comes in different ways, and how each person has a different way of being powerful. That would make everyone powerful enough to do anything.

[Tripleh213]

I believe he has the potential to be a good wizard.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by Brigid

I think Ron is good Auror material in that in spirte of being afraid someones he goes forward.. like with the spiders.I think that his loyalty for friends, Hogwwarts, and his housegive him the strength for what he needs to do.. and that strength and loyalty has a power of it's own, not just sheer force...but driven by love, and nothing is stronger than that...I think that's something Rowling wanted to say.

I agree, I think that strength comes in forms other than raw magical power. As far as power (magic power) goes, I'd say Ron is average. Not too much, not too little, but his case goes to show what someone with strengths that lie elsewhere can accomplish. It is interesting because he is the Pureblood of the Trio, and the only one raised in the magical world. Perhaps it was to show that even for those immersed in the magical world, magic doesn't become the best or only solution to all problems?

I think my favorite demonstration of Ron's ability is his getting the basilisk fangs in the final book. Only a couple of hours back at Hogwarts, and he had solved the problem of how to destroy Horcruxes. Dumbledore, the greatest and most powerful wizard of the age, even with years appearantly never even thought about the fangs down in the basement, and instead instigated a convoluted and implausible plot involving the bequeathment of the Sword of Gryffindor. I think Ron shows how someone with "average" power but solid character and the right information can rise to the occasion and overcome obstacles.