Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.13

[halfbloodsnape]

-Was Snape really aware of Voldemort's plans or was he just bluffing to make Narcissa tell him? Is it possible that he was using legilimency on Narcissa?

I could never really make my mind up about it. If he knew about it than him telling Narcissa that she should not speak of it if the Dark Lord forbade it it just playacting. It makes sense. If he didn't know, he was just playing for some time to 'read' Narcissa. It also makes sense.
It is more probable however that Severus knew. Everybody seemed to think that Voldemort trusted him very much, and after all, all what Draco had to do had to do it at the school, where Severus also was. It would be prudent even to let Sev know, especially if tha Dark Lord wanted to make sure that Draco suffers.

[b]-Do you think Snape's actions were affected by his taking the Vow? Is there anything you think he might have done differently if he had not been bound by it?

Probably not, except that Draco might have died in the bathroom fight with Harry. I'm guessing the reason Severus showed up so fast is because he was keeping an eye on Draco, probably being aware all the time where the boy was and what he was doing.

Do you think Snape would have protected Draco anyway, even if his life had not depended on it, as Dumbledore had asked him to "protect the students at Hogwarts"?

I'm not quite sure what does this one refer to. Snape was asked to protect the students after Dumbledore was gone, and when he took the Vow to Narcissa Dumbledore was very much alive. I'm guessing, however that he probably would've tried to protect Draco to a certain level knowing what the boy is up to and why. It could've spared him a lot of stress, for then it wouldn't have been in the middle of a conflict of interests. He had to protect Draco knowing that he is trying to murder Dumbledore. He had to protect Harry who anyway was in constant danger, and whom heartily disliked Draco and tried to mess things up for him especially after suspecting that Draco is behind the weird incidents. Then he had to try to protect others from Draco's childish plans he made up to try to do Dumbledore in.

[Melisa]

-Was Snape really aware of Voldemort's plans or was he just bluffing to make Narcissa tell him? Is it possible that he was using legilimency on Narcissa?

I am aware that he had had the conversation with DD before (I should have phrased the question more clearly), but still Snape did not know what Draco was up to. My feeling is that there was something he wanted to achieve, or else Why bother? He was indeed on dangerous ground anyway, because they were having the conversation behind Voldemort's back, and he was agreeing to do something that went against Voldemort's will, which was that Draco should be killed. The only other option is that he really pitied Narcissa and consented to help her because of that, since he could have easily shunned her, after all, that was what Bellatrix was expecting him to do. In particular, the detail that he walks to the window and ponders is what bugs me, because he took his time to decide how to continue. Maybe it's just a non important detail, but it bugs me anyway

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Schuldig

And, because I need to ask, if you don't buy into Harry's statement here, why buy into any of them? If what Harry says/thinks/percieves isn't accurate, we might as well assume that Severus is a gorgeous, agreeable fellow and that Voldy is just misunderstood.

Well I was a judicious reader. I didn't buy Harry's opinion there for the same reason I didn't buy Harry's opinion that Snape was a loyal Death Eater. Harry's opinions didn't jive with my impression of the story as told in those instances.

The difference being, of course, that James probably wouldn't have gotten his face cut if he hadn't gone after Severus.

That made no difference to me. Draco wouldn't have gotten his nose punched in DH if Ron hadn't disliked him - and while I thought Ron was wrong in that instance, I didn't sympathise with Draco because he was as responsible as Ron for their mutual dislike. That was how I saw SWM as well. On the whole I don't sympathise with any of the kids relative to the mutual enemyships in the storyline.

[Schuldig]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

That made no difference to me. Draco wouldn't have gotten his nose punched in DH if Ron hadn't disliked him - and while I thought Ron was wrong in that instance, I didn't sympathise with Draco because he was as responsible as Ron for their mutual dislike. That was how I saw SWM as well. On the whole I don't sympathise with any of the kids relative to the mutual enemyships in the storyline.

But Severus is not responsible for the mutual dislike - it's James and Sirius who start picking on him on the train; it's James and c.o who attack him without cause, and when asked to explain it, James defends himself with "he exists". If Severus had been an active DE, or as into the Dark Arts as Sirius claims, or generally nasty, this would have been a great chance to come out and say so - but he doesn't. All he can think of for disliking the guy is that he was born. There's absolutely no canon support for Severus having had a grudge on James if it hadn't been for the way James behaves towards him.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Melisa

I am aware that he had had the conversation with DD before (I should have phrased the question more clearly), but still Snape did not know what Draco was up to. My feeling is that there was something he wanted to achieve, or else Why bother? He was indeed on dangerous ground anyway, because they were having the conversation behind Voldemort's back, and he was agreeing to do something that went against Voldemort's will, which was that Draco should be killed. The only other option is that he really pitied Narcissa and consented to help her because of that, since he could have easily shunned her, after all, that was what Bellatrix was expecting him to do. In particular, the detail that he walks to the window and ponders is what bugs me, because he took his time to decide how to continue. Maybe it's just a non important detail, but it bugs me anyway

I think he would not have taken the Vow if Narcissa was content with his explanations. But when Bellatrix goaded him, I think he agreed because a) I believe he would have saved Draco, no matter what; just as he would have saved the students in Hogwarts, had they been in real danger. b) By deciding to take the Vow he also silenced Bellatrix who now had no plausible reason to doubt him; he had effectively taken a vow to kill Dumbledore if Draco could not which proved his loyalty to Voldemort over Dumbledore. This way he stopped Bellatrix's rantings which could ignite Voldemort's suspicions in the future, and, also help Narcissa, who was really fearful for Draco's life.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Melisa

I am aware that he had had the conversation with DD before (I should have phrased the question more clearly), but still Snape did not know what Draco was up to. My feeling is that there was something he wanted to achieve, or else Why bother?

It is my opinion that Snape knew Voldemort had ordered Draco to kill Dumbledore, and Voldemort had made sure Snape knew. This could be either because Snape was already "most trusted", as Narcissa claimed (but would she know, and was she flattering Snape?) m or because he was on the contrary not fully tested, and giving Snape this information was a test of loyalty. I favor the latter guess.

What Snape did not know (even Voldemort may not have at this point) was the means Draco planned to use to achieve his task. And taking a Vow served the purpose of learning this latter information in a couple of ways. It ensured Narcissa would trust Snape and share anything she knew about Draco's plans (apparently not much). Andit gave Snape a good excuse to involve himself in the matter - he had promised to watch over Draco, if he did not try, he would die!

He was indeed on dangerous ground anyway, because they were having the conversation behind Voldemort's back, and he was agreeing to do something that went against Voldemort's will, which was that Draco should be killed.

Snape guessed, I think correctly, that it was Voldemort's will Draco should die. But I think he did have some cover in taking the vow because there was an explanation for it the Death Eaters would accept - a friendship, apparently of long standing, between Snape and Lucius Malfoy. I would guess that from what Snape knew officially, from hearing of it from a reliable source, Draco's task was an honor. Bella certainly believes this is Voldemort's intent, to give Draco a chance to prove himself as a Death Eater.

In particular, the detail that he walks to the window and ponders is what bugs me, because he took his time to decide how to continue. Maybe it's just a non important detail, but it bugs me anyway

I always took this detail to be part of his act. Snape warns Narcissa to obey the Dark Lord's order of secrecy, like the good Death Eater he pretends to be. Then, having established that everyone in the room is already in the know, he checks for possible eavesdroppers outside before continuing the discussion.

[Melisa]

Originally Posted by arithmancer

And taking a Vow served the purpose of learning this latter information in a couple of ways. It ensured Narcissa would trust Snape and share anything she knew about Draco's plans (apparently not much). Andit gave Snape a good excuse to involve himself in the matter - he had promised to watch over Draco, if he did not try, he would die!

Thank you for wording it so clearly! I agree!

On my first reading of the scene I had been inclined to think Snape had taken the vow because he had not found any way out of the situation. However, after re reading it a couple of times, there were certain hints that he hadn't taken the vow only because he was in a rather tight position, but because he had seen an opportunity in it.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Melisa

Thank you for wording it so clearly! I agree!

On my first reading of the scene I had been inclined to think Snape had taken the vow because he had not found any way out of the situation. However, after re reading it a couple of times, there were certain hints that he hadn't taken the vow only because he was in a rather tight position, but because he had seen an opportunity in it.

Thanks!

I think, though, that the Vow was more than he was expecting. In my opinion, Narcissa led him to believe that the three clauses would require him to watch over, protect, and help Draco. When she then in the formal vow-taking magic part changed the third term to "and complete the task if Draco fails", I think he was surprised/taken aback for a moment. But he had, of course, already promised Dumbledore he would do it, so he went ahead and completed the Vow Narcissa asked for.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by arithmancer

I think, though, that the Vow was more than he was expecting. In my opinion, Narcissa led him to believe that the three clauses would require him to watch over, protect, and help Draco. When she then in the formal vow-taking magic part changed the third term to "and complete the task if Draco fails", I think he was surprised/taken aback for a moment. But he had, of course, already promised Dumbledore he would do it, so he went ahead and completed the Vow Narcissa asked for.

I agree, I don't think he was expecting the final clause, as we see his hand twitch at that moment.

HBP, Spinner's End 'And, should it prove necessary...if it seems Draco will fail...' whispered Narcissa (Snape's hand twitched within hers, but he did not draw away), will you carry out the deed that the Dark Lord has ordered Draco to perform?'

[Melisa]

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

I agree, I don't think he was expecting the final clause, as we see his hand twitch at that moment.

Good point, I had interpreted the twitch as a sign that he knew it was the last and definite clause, and that there would not be going back after it, since he had already told Narcissa he thought Voldemort expected him "to do it in the end" (killing Dumbledore). However, my interpretation in a way implies that he knew what the clauses would be, and he had no way of knowing that.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Schuldig

But Severus is not responsible for the mutual dislike

Well we would have to agree to disagree on that. I hold all parties equally responsible based on my interpretation of the canon.

Originally Posted by arithmancer

I think, though, that the Vow was more than he was expecting. In my opinion, Narcissa led him to believe that the three clauses would require him to watch over, protect, and help Draco. When she then in the formal vow-taking magic part changed the third term to "and complete the task if Draco fails", I think he was surprised/taken aback for a moment. But he had, of course, already promised Dumbledore he would do it, so he went ahead and completed the Vow Narcissa asked for.

I think the correct thing for Snape in that instance, would have been to not take the vow on the pretext of being unwilling to thwart Voldemort. Making the unbreakable vow to kill Dumbledore with the consequence of dying if he didn't fulfill it was a pretty dark act in and of itself, imo. I am still uncertain why Snape felt he should do it. Convincing Bella and/or Narcissa of his allegiance was simply not important enough in general, imo - and there would be no reprecussions if Snape chose not to do it because they couldn't exactly go to Voldemort and try to use it as evidence of his disloyalty without inculpating themselves.

[Schuldig]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Well we would have to agree to disagree on that. I hold all parties equally responsible based on my interpretation of the canon.

Given that the parts I mentioned had no such canon, would you care to give examples? I'm all for agreeing to disagree, but I personally don't even see a hint of Severus holding an unwarranted grudge against James, or him starting to pick on James (or anyone else, for that matter).

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by Schuldig

Given that the parts I mentioned had no such canon, would you care to give examples? I'm all for agreeing to disagree, but I personally don't even see a hint of Severus holding an unwarranted grudge against James, or him starting to pick on James (or anyone else, for that matter).

It is a banned topic here. I'll send you an owl.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

I think the correct thing for Snape in that instance, would have been to not take the vow on the pretext of being unwilling to thwart Voldemort.

I think taking the Vow showed how human Snape was. He could have very easily not taken the vow citing the very reason you have given. But he did, not only to silence Bellatrix, but also to comfort Narcissa IMO. He understood her despair, and also how alone she was; there was no one to care or understand how her fear; Bellatrix thought she was silly and that she ought to be glad for Draco; and there was no one else to whom she could go for Lucius' plight had effectively cut her off from everyone.

And if Snape had refused her as well, she would have been utterly alone with her fears for son for the whole year and Snape's very compassionate action helped her enormously. This was something Dumbledore would have done and Snape IMO did just the right thing.

Making the unbreakable vow to kill Dumbledore with the consequence of dying if he didn't fulfill it was a pretty dark act in and of itself, imo.

Why?

I am still uncertain why Snape felt he should do it.

1) Because he had already agreed to kill Dumbledore and save Draco his soul IMO.

2) Because Narcissa feared for her son's life which would be in great danger if he could not succeed in his task, and it was a task Voldemort had assigned to Draco, for him to fail, rather than succeed. In that light, when Narcissa asked him to help Draco by not just protecting him, but by completing the task if he could not, Snape understood she was asking for Draco's life (from Voldemort's anger), in case he failed. If Snape would kill Dumbledore, Draco and Narcissa could and would probably beg Voldemort to let Draco off, since the "job" had been completed after all IMO.

Convincing Bella and/or Narcissa of his allegiance was simply not important enough in general, imo - and there would be no repercussions if Snape chose not to do it because they couldn't exactly go to Voldemort and try to use it as evidence of his disloyalty without inculpating themselves.

This was also important, because Bellatrix would from then on be silent about Snape's loyalties. She could hardly argue he was a traitor, when he had made an UV to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed IMO.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think taking the Vow showed how human Snape was. He could have very easily not taken the vow citing the very reason you have given. But he did, not only to silence Bellatrix, but also to comfort Narcissa IMO. He understood her despair, and also how alone she was; there was no one to care or understand how her fear; Bellatrix thought she was silly and that she ought to be glad for Draco; and there was no one else to whom she could go for Lucius' plight had effectively cut her off from everyone.

I agree that the goal of easing Narcissa's fears is technically a good one. However, vowing to murder in the stead of her son in order to achieve her peace of mind was not. It was a vow of the most serious type because Snape would die if he didn't fulfill it. In this case, I do not feel Narcissa deserved to have her mind put at ease. The family was in a situation of their own making - including Narcissa.

And if Snape had refused her as well, she would have been utterly alone with her fears for son for the whole year and Snape's very compassionate action helped her enormously. This was something Dumbledore would have done and Snape IMO did just the right thing.

I would disagree. I think it would have been a better lesson for Narcissa if she had had to suffer the consequences of the situation. That would include all of the worrying and fear that she had to undergo. She didn't care that Dumbledore was going to be killed, she only cared that her son might die or be killed on account of the dark lord recruiting Draco in revenge for her husband's failure. She was willing to take the risk of further thwarting the dark lord to save him and dragging Snape down with her - using him and placing his life at risk, not only in terms of any consequences of killing Dumbledore, but also, in terms of Voldemort finding out about the vow.

Why?

Why is it dark to vow to assassinate an innocent man and seal the deal with your own mortality? Because it's wrong.

1) Because he had already agreed to kill Dumbledore and save Draco his soul IMO.

And if Dumbledore's plan changed? Then what would Snape do? What if Draco attempted to kill Dumbledore and found he couldn't before Dumbledore was ready to die? Saving Draco's soul could be achieved in many ways but to me, promising to murder in his stead is not one of them. This was made worse because Draco knew about it. So from his point of view, Snape has vowed on his life to kill Dumbledore and there is no lesson there for him concerning doing the right thing in order to save his soul. This was not a part of Dumbledore's plan to achieve that goal.

2) Because Narcissa feared for her son's life which would be in great danger if he could not succeed in his task, and it was a task Voldemort had assigned to Draco, for him to fail, rather than succeed. In that light, when Narcissa asked him to help Draco by not just protecting him, but by completing the task if he could not, Snape understood she was asking for Draco's life (from Voldemort's anger), in case he failed. If Snape would kill Dumbledore, Draco and Narcissa could and would probably beg Voldemort to let Draco off, since the "job" had been completed after all IMO.

Why should Snape jeopardize his soul for Draco's life? Narcissa didn't care about that. She didn't care if Snape was immediately killed by aurors for the deed of killing Dumbledore - just so her son lived. For any good Snape was doing toward easing her mind and protecting/saving Draco's life, she was placing Snape's life in peril. Not to mention that Voldemort had already failed to kill Dumbledore at their battle at the MOM. How was Snape supposed to succeed at killing Dumbledore? He could fail as easily as Voldemort had - but she didn't care. So sympathy for Narcissa seems misplaced, imo. She didn't deserve to have her mind eased at all, imo.

I feel Snape could and should have done the right thing which would be to tell her he could not help her due to his loyalty to the dark lord. It would have left her in the same position and wouldn't have added this further burden of a dark act on his soul.

This was also important, because Bellatrix would from then on be silent about Snape's loyalties. She could hardly argue he was a traitor, when he had made an UV to kill Dumbledore if Draco failed IMO.

Bella could not have spoken about the vow no matter what - or Narcissa and she would be in the dark lord's bad graces. I don't recall her discussing Snape's loyalties with the dark lord - but if she had been doing so, it had gotten her no where because Voldemort trusted Snape - and it would continue to get her no where because Voldemort felt Snape was important to his plans, imo.

[Melisa]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

Why is it dark to vow to assassinate an innocent man and seal the deal with your own mortality? Because it's wrong.

I agree that to take such a Vow would be wrong. However, in this case, Dumbledore had asked Snape to kill him, most forcefully, I might add. Snape did not want to kill him. Moreover, Dumbledore was already doomed, he was dying (and he was not already dead thanks to Snape), there was no "changing his mind" about it.
As regards his own mortality, he had been a double agent and deceived the Dark Lord himself, I don't think he was particularly afraid to die. What he was worried about was his soul, and even that he was willing to give to follow Dumbledore's orders.
I agree that Narcissa was being selfish and that the Malfoy's had landed themselves in the position they were, but it is still noble for Snape to be moved by her desperation (I'm not saying he was, I'm still in two minds about that).
He did not lightheartedly vow to kill Dumbledore, the only living person who knew him for who he really was, he decided to do it for many reasons, some of which are still unclear to me.

[MistressofRaven]

Originally Posted by Melisa

I agree that Narcissa was being selfish and that the Malfoy's had landed themselves in the position they were, but it is still noble for Snape to be moved by her desperation (I'm not saying he was, I'm still in two minds about that).
.

I can't really fault Narcissa's actions here. Her son's life hangs in the balance. He's just a sixteen year old boy whose parents have landed him in a bad situation. Does he deserve to die because of forces beyond his control? And what mother wouldn't do anything to protect her own son?

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by MistressofRaven

I can't really fault Narcissa's actions here. Her son's life hangs in the balance. He's just a sixteen year old boy whose parents have landed him in a bad situation. Does he deserve to die because of forces beyond his control? And what mother wouldn't do anything to protect her own son?

Hi, MistressofRaven ~ I agree. I thought it was noble of Snape to help Narcissa when she had no one else to turn to and Lucius was in prison. He is moved by her love for Draco, which is an echo of his Lily's love for Harry, and Snape's love for Lily.

So I agree with The Green Woods that making the Vow shows Snape's humanity.

Originally Posted by WWB

Why is it dark to vow to assassinate an innocent man and seal the deal with your own mortality? Because it's wrong.

Perhaps Snape believed Dumbledore might die from the cursed hand before either he or Draco had to do anything.

Snape uses the indefinite pronoun "he" when he tells Narcissa "I think he means for me to do it in the end." He isn't just talking about Voldemort there, but Dumbledore, who certainly asked Snape to kill him if he was cornered. And Dumbledore specifically mentions Bellatrix and Fenrir in Prince's Tale when he asks Snape to finish him off because he feared that they would go after him.

It all works together for good and not evil. Snape kept his word to Narcissa and to Dumbledore. He protected Draco and Harry. He could have just refused to kill Dumbledore, but then think of the consequences!

1. Snape would have died from the Vow.
2. Draco would have been punished or killed.
3. Dumbledore might have died knowing that all his plans for Harry were done because Snape was dead.
4. Lupin and George might have died during the 7 Potters.
5. The Carrows would have taken over the school without Snape there and Voldemort might have been Headmaster instead, which wouldn't have been good.
6. Harry and Ron wouldn't have had the Sword of Gryffindor to destroy Slytherins's Locket.
4. Harry would never have known he needed to sacrifice himself.
5. Narcissa couldn't have redeemed herself by helping Harry.
6. Harry would never have seen Snape's memories of childhood with Lily.
7. Harry would never have known about Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily, and therefore wouldn't have known why she was given a choice.

[MistressofRaven]

Isn't Snape just wonderful

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

So I agree with The Green Woods that making the Vow shows Snape's humanity.

It isn't that it doesn't show he wished to ease Narcissa's mind - he may well have wished to do so. But it is the way he went about doing so that is the problem, imo. Narcissa could have pleaded with Snape to go to Dumbledore and reveal the whole plot - then further beg for his mercy in helping them to save Draco. But instead, she went with the devious and evil plot that Voldemort had come up with and asked Snape to kill Dumbledore in order to try and save her son because she felt he'd fail at doing it. Narcissa didn't know Dumbledore was dying - so her goal included killing an innocent and healthy man and frankly I see nothing good about that at all - to see it as "okay" is to condone murder, imo. That is the plan that Snape vowed to stand in for Draco in achieving.

Snape was in a little bit better of a position; he knew Dumbledore was going to die and he'd promised to kill him already. However, whatever benefit he hoped to achieve (for himself or Narcissa) as a result of making the vow with her, had to be paid for - if not with his own life, with his murder of Dumbledore. Note Narcissa's vow is not asking Snape to do Dumbledore a favor (put him out of his misery from dying or kill him in line with some good goal) - she is asking for a flat out assassination - murder - of an innocent. That is the vow Snape ended up accepting. So that is why I think he should have refused and he could easily use the excuse of loyalty to Voldemort in order to not have to participate in the vow to commit actual murder without recrimination.

Perhaps Snape believed Dumbledore might die from the cursed hand before either he or Draco had to do anything.

No he didn't - Dumbledore told him he wasn't going to let that happen. He had a plan which is why he asked Snape to kill him.

It all works together for good and not evil. Snape kept his word to Narcissa and to Dumbledore. He protected Draco and Harry. He could have just refused to kill Dumbledore, but then think of the consequences!

1. Snape would have died from the Vow.

Well I was only referring to Snape making the vow. If he hadn't made it, he wouldn't be in a position to die if he didn't carry it out. I feel his refusing Dumbledore's request is a different matter altogether. The vow had nothing to do with Dumbledore asking Snape to do that or Snape's agreement. The vow came afterward and Snape may have used the fact that he'd already promised Dumbledore to kill him and/or that Dumbledore was dying as a justification for taking the vow - but it is not justified by those elements because neither was a promise to "murder" an innocent man for a wrongful purpose (because Voldemort wanted him dead) - that is what Narcissa got Snape to promise and why I feel he should have told her no.