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Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape
I don't think forgiving is the same as condoning. Do you?
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No, I don't. However, if Harry pretends that it doesn't matter that Snape treated him like dirt, I consider that condoning. For there to be forgiveness, Harry needs to be aware that Snape's treatment of him was wrong, that there was no justification for it. And then move on and no longer hold a grudge. If Harry justifies Snape's bullying of him, or pretends it doesn't matter, I don't consider that forgiveness, I consider it being a doormat.
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I disagree. I don't think that anytime someone finds it in their heart to forgive, that they are disrespecting themselves, or that it speaks of very poor self-respect.
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Forgiveness, yes. Telling himself that it didn't matter that Snape bullied him strikes me as very poor self-respect, and it doesn't seem like forgiveness to me. If he thinks that Snape was justified in behaving as he did, it strikes me as very disrespectful to his parents, especially to Lily.
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Sorry, I'm not understanding how you're getting from here to there: How is forgiving someone's behavior the same as condoning their behavior?
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I don't consider forgiveness to equate to telling himself it doesn't matter that Snape hurt him. It does matter when someone hurts you, and I don't think forgiveness makes it matter less that someone was hurt. It means they've moved past it, not that it was unimportant, or worse, deserved.
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I fail to understand why maturity should mean eternal victimhood. I don't think Harry, both as the man who defeated Voldemort, as a Gryffindor, and as a father of 3, would come to think of himself as a perpetual victim. I think his life experiences were empowering & I don't think Snape's hurtful behavior towards him when he was 15 left him hurt, at 38. That sounds more like Snape's POV than Harry's, IMO.
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Moving on is not the same as pretending that Snape's beahviour was unimportant, or kidding himself that he blew the cruelty and spite out of proportion. Forgiveness doesn't mean that Harry decided it was his own fault his eleven - sixteen year old self was hurt by Snape's actions. And I find it interesting that a fifteen year old's feelings are apparently less important when Snape is the one inflicting the hurt.
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I don't see these situations as parallel. Voldemort gave Lily options on behalf of Snape's request, not because he cared about Lily. And Umbridge did not feel remorse over not teaching DADA properly, and begin to help Harry and the DA while spying on the Ministry for Dumbledore -- that might have been a parallel situation.
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I think they are parallel - Snape certainly did not mean to help Harry when he asked for Voldemort to spare Lily. Umbridge did not mean to help the students defend themselves when she taught them so little that they went and taught themselves. Something good came of a bad deed, and in neither case do I give Snape or Umbridge credit. If Harry ought to be grateful to Snape for asking for Lily's life, he should also be grateful to Voldemort for giving Lily the choice to step aside.
It's the same principle - Snape wanted Lily to step aside, Voldemort offered her the chance to step aside - why should he be grateful to Snape for that if he would not also be grateful to Voldemort?
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I have to respectfully disagree here. Her sacrifice was no more precious than James' sacrifice. Her sacrifice was made in the exact same spirit as James's sacrifice. James loved his son just as much, and his choice to willingly give his life held just as much integrity as hers. James sacrifice did not save Harry, and Lily's did, by virtue of a technicality of magical law, alone. Harry has no reason to thank Voldemort for asking Lily to step aside, because Voldemort did not give her that option on his own behalf. He did so on behalf of Snape's request to spare her.
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Lily and James both died to save Harry. Lily's sacrifice was the one that gave him magical protection. I think it's ironic - James died in the hope that he would buy Lily time to get away with Harry, whereas Lily died expecting that her child would soon join her.
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And yet, his love for her saved Harry's life. I believe Harry felt grateful for the life that he had thanks to Snape's love for his mother, rather than feeling bitter for a life he never knew thanks to Snape putting the general public in danger.
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Lily's love for Harry saved her son's life. I do not give Snape any credit for that, and I would be disappointed with the man Harry became if he was grateful to Snape for asking for something so callous, especially after Harry became a parent himself. I don't think he would think too highly of anyone who requested him to be spared while James, Al or Lily were murdered.
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I have to disagree completely here, sorry I think James & Lily both had the option - as human beings with free will - to run away when Voldemort arrived. Neither one did, because they loved their son. So I don't believe for a second that James ignored his option to run away (making his sacrifice null), while Lily actually had a crisis of conscience about whether or not she should shield Harry with her life (making her sacrifice operative)...
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Indeed. They both loved their son. Lily loved her son, so she would not do what Snape and Voldemort wanted her to do. Neither of them chose to run or to step aside. IMO, that shows love, genuine, selfless love more completely than anything else.
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I don't believe there was a difference in their decisions to protect Harry -- the difference was that Voldemort gave options to one, and not to the other. And he did so on behalf of Snape's request.
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It was Lily's response to that offer that saved Harry. If Snape had had his way, Lily would have watched her child murdered, and she would have been a captive of Lord Voldemort. Lily's choice saved Harry, and I do not give Snape one jot of credit for that.
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Me neither, but I can imagine Harry forgiving Snape and honoring his bravery -- because asking Voldemort to spare Lily's life was probably the riskiest thing he ever did.
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I do not see it as that risky. Voldemort boasted of rewarding his servants, after all. I can see him considering Lily as a "reward" for the prophecy.
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Personally, I don't think asking to spare Harry's life was ever really an option. What would Voldemort have done with a DE who was asking him to spare the life of the one who would vanquish him? Voldemort might have decided to kill James & Lily for fear that any future child of theirs could vanquish him, so how suspicious would it seem if Snape asked Voldemort to spare the life of those who thrice defied him? Simply put, I think Voldemort would have finished Snape right then & there if he had asked to spare the lives of the entire family, and to quote Dumbledore "what use would that be to anyone?"
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No, he couldn't have asked for Harry's life. But he asked for Lily's life at the expense of her child - not caring one damn what she would feel. As Dumbledore said to him - "They can die as long as you get what you want"
Also, it didn't matter to him whose life would be destroyed until he got a taste of his own medicine. I don't like to think Harry would be grateful for such selfishness. I think he would be grateful for Snape's later work in protecting him, but I sincerely hope he wasn't grateful for that.
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Originally Posted by MsJPotter
Actually, I kinda think Harry's forgiveness has nothing to do with Snape at all.
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I think that's a good point. Forgiveness, rather like grudge-bearing, has more to do with the person who is hurt than the person who hurt them. Snape couldn't forgive, that was to do with Snape himself. Harry could forgive, that was to do with Harry himself.
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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl
I agree; it says more about Harry's ability to be compassionate towards other people. Once Harry understood Snape's history, he was able to understand where Snape was coming from, and be able to acknowledge Snape's bravery in fighting Voldemort, and Snape's feelings for Lily. Nowhere is it implied that Harry thought all of Snape's actions & motives were acceptable...but at least Harry now understood, and was able to not only acknowledge the good part of Snape, but ensure that the wizarding world did as well.
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I agree with your view. The remarkable thing is that despite knowing these things about Snape (asking for Lily's life, without a thought about James' or Harry's life), Harry is still able to see Snape's whole story, understand what Snape's motivations were (both good and bad), let the negative part go, and accept the good in Snape and his role in the defeat of Voldemort.
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I see it a lot like this. IMO, forgiveness doesn't mean glossing over the negative. IMO, one has to acknowledge the negative in order to forgive it. If it isn't a negative, how can it be forgiveness? IMO, Harry was able to let go of the hurt Snape had caused him, but not pretend that it didn't matter.
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September 21st, 2011, 6:25 pm
Wit Beyond Measure is Mans Greatest Treasure 
