Romantic moments & that scene in Deathly Hallows v.2

[Hes]

Version 1 can be found here

Originally Posted by Morgoth

This thread is to discuss the romantic scenes in DHp1+p2, but moreover I suspect you will all be debating the scene between Harry & Hermione... you know the one.

Let's remember to be nice and civil. The books have established the end game for relationships, so this is about the movies introducing their own "what if" moments, pure speculation.

We will monitor this thread closely and issue warnings to people who start arguments and don't quit when told to by Mods.

[SirDobster]

I think the moment in the movie is something that could potentially happen between friends of the opposite sex. Sometimes friends address it, and sometimes they ignore it. I thought the moment was a bit surprising, but well-written and acted, especially Emma's peformance. It was also the first time I saw Daniel in more of a "he's a grown man" point of view. Definitely a scene that will stay in my memory.

[MsBinns]

What do you think the most romantic scene in DH1 and 2 is?

(Defining "romantic" as displaying or expressing love or strong affection)

I still come back to the wedding and the piano scene from DH1. The way Ron looks at her, to me, is perfect.

[BrianTung]

Originally Posted by MsBinns

What do you think the most romantic scene in DH1 and 2 is?

(Defining "romantic" as displaying or expressing love or strong affection)

I still come back to the wedding and the piano scene from DH1. The way Ron looks at her, to me, is perfect.

Hmm...

I don't really remember much romantic content to either film, to be honest. I thought HBP had a lot more of that stuff. Hermione of course had the great stricken expression in the Three Broomsticks (after Ron makes the comment about the butterbeer head still on her upper lip). And her sidelong glance--just a split second!--after she thinks she's said too much ("I've always found him interesting") is exquisitely done. I mean to say, it's so ingrained in her to tell the truth, to argue the truth, and now she's almost undone by it. (Saved by Ron rousing himself slightly!)

What else? Oh--I know most people thought it was hogwash, but I liked the shoelace scene. Yes, it's awkward, but in my opinion, it fits there. These two people are going to be awkward; they're inexperienced, and they don't know how to communicate it, so they deflect. Ergo, shoelace. I thought it was cute.

But DH1/2? There were a couple of moments, but they were more action moments with an overtone of romance than anything else. If they'd kept in the scene with Harry walking down with the rest of the students after coming into the Room of Requirement, that would've been something. But I understand why they ditched it (to make Harry's sudden appearance at Snape's assembly all the more startling).

In the Pensieve, there's young Snape's longing glance at Lily as she walks over to the Gryffindor table. Haunting enough that some people have put it into their siggies. And oh yes, Rickman's delivery of "No one can know," with that little lurch and bow of the head just before, as if he's having trouble getting the line out--that's really well done.

As long as I'm talking about this film, I might as well mention a postscript (or, I guess, it's a prescript) on the scene in question. When Ron says, "I saw you two the other night," Hermione doesn't say, "Huh?!" or "What are you talking about?" or anything like that. She says, "That...that was nothing." Which convinces me that for the purposes of the film, for Hermione at least, it wasn't nothing. And the dance confirms that, in my opinion. Of course, it's wholly absent from the book, but it was an interesting departure by the filmmakers.

[SopophorousBean]

Originally Posted by MsBinns

What do you think the most romantic scene in DH1 and 2 is?

(Defining "romantic" as displaying or expressing love or strong affection)

I still come back to the wedding and the piano scene from DH1. The way Ron looks at her, to me, is perfect.

I thought they did the "looks" between Ron and Hermione perfectly in parts 1 and 2, it was so sweet and the way Ron was always looking out for her and protecting her too.

One of my favourite romantic moments is the Harry/Ginny kiss in part 2. I'm so glad they gave Harry and Ginny another kiss and I actually think they did a really good job with it and re-watching it on the DVD has made me appreciate that scene more. It was just perfect in the situation the two characters were in, knowing they might not see each other again

[Sereena]

I've never understood why some fans had such a problem with the scene between Dan and Emma or why it had to be so controversial in the first place. Honestly, what is the big deal? Even if the filmmakers were trying to promote Harry/Hermione I still wouldn't see a problem. They play with the possibility something that even Rowling accepted that there was. That's what I think the movie does. They did make H/G and R/Hr canon so what is the problem? I thought it was nice to see Harry showing some empathy towards Hermione instead of ignoring her and leaving her to cry herself to sleep as he does in the books. It didn't make me raise my eyebrows (of course I'm not much into shipping so that's probably a factor but still).

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Sereena

I've never understood why some fans had such a problem with the scene between Dan and Emma or why it had to be so controversial in the first place. Honestly, what is the big deal? Even if the filmmakers were trying to promote Harry/Hermione I still wouldn't see a problem. They play with the possibility something that even Rowling accepted that there was. That's what I think the movie does. They did make H/G and R/Hr canon so what is the problem? I thought it was nice to see Harry showing some empathy towards Hermione instead of ignoring her and leaving her to cry herself to sleep as he does in the books. It didn't make me raise my eyebrows (of course I'm not much into shipping so that's probably a factor but still).

I feel the same way. Personally I didn't find anything romantic about the dance. I saw 2 close friends finding a very momentary escape from their problems and arguably miserable circumstances, and nothing more. Although I had the benefit of seeing the movies as a book reader, every single person I know who did not read the HP books never saw Hermione attracted romantically to anyone but Ron in the movie versions.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I feel the same way. Personally I didn't find anything romantic about the dance. I saw 2 close friends finding a very momentary escape from their problems and arguably miserable circumstances, and nothing more. Although I had the benefit of seeing the movies as a book reader, every single person I know who did not read the HP books never saw Hermione attracted romantically to anyone but Ron in the movie versions.

As one who hates that scene with a vengance, the biggest issue I have is the look between Harry and Hermione at the end (the one where the actors were directed to make viewers wonder if they would kiss). It was unnecessary, frivolous and, to me, spoiled Harry's character and the moment Hermione was having. It made me hate Harry for even appearing to want to take his best friend's girl and trivialized Hermione's feelings for Ron in showing that she might at all even consider having a relationship with Harry.

To me, that scene could have worked if they had danced, been silly, tried to lighten the mood and then at the end when they sort of start slow dancing, have Hermione become overcome with emotion (presumably at missing Ron) and just walk away without sharing that "longing look" with Harry. OR at the end when they start slow dancing have Harry say something about Ron coming back or not coming back or how he misses him too and generally spoil the moment with regards to the elephant in the room (the elephant being Ron's absence) and Hermione becoming overcome with emotion and walking off. THEN I wouldn't have an issue with it.

I also would say that I never got the impression from canon that JKR was hinting that Harry and Hermione might have gotten together or was trying to put them together. I always had the impression that Hermione was in Ron's camp now and forever and Harry would never do anything to get between them even if Ron never came back in DH.

[StarryVeil]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

As one who hates that scene with a vengance, the biggest issue I have is the look between Harry and Hermione at the end (the one where the actors were directed to make viewers wonder if they would kiss).

Exactly. That "will-they-or-won't-they" look at the end of their slow dance was done with absolutely no regard for canon characterization, IMO (as was most of the film franchise). There shouldn't be any "will-they-or-won't-they". Harry and Hermione were never attracted to each other, not for a single moment. From the very beginning, it was a brother-sister relationship and it never for a moment deviated from that.

I think the biggest thing this scene did was discredit Harry's future statement to Ron about how he loves Hermione like a sister. Funny how the films actually sort of validated Ron's insecurity, instead of presenting it as unfounded (which it was in the books).

It made me hate Harry for even appearing to want to take his best friend's girl and trivialized Hermione's feelings for Ron in showing that she might at all even consider having a relationship with Harry.

And it didn't just deviate from canon, it did a complete 180. It was emphasized pretty strongly in DH, I think, that Ron's absence drove Harry and Hermione apart. That scene showed them considering deepening the relationship with each other.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

Exactly. That "will-they-or-won't-they" look at the end of their slow dance was done with absolutely no regard for canon characterization, IMO (as was most of the film franchise). There shouldn't be any "will-they-or-won't-they". Harry and Hermione were never attracted to each other, not for a single moment. From the very beginning, it was a brother-sister relationship and it never for a moment deviated from that.

Yes but the movies are allowed to change or emphasize certain things which weren't in canon, I think. They played with the possibility of H/Hr not just in that scene but in others as well. They even made Hermione a more important character than Ron and I suppose one thing just led to another. The hero usually gets together with the beautiful sidekick so the movies used H/Hr as a red herring. It was like you said a "will they or won't they" thing. No, according to popular interpretations of canon Harry is not attracted to Hermione nor is Hermione attracted to him. But frankly, the romances in HP are so underdeveloped that I don't see any sacred cow being messsed with here. I would have had a bigger problem with, say, the movies promoting Snape/Narcissa as a huge point of Snape's character is that he loved Lily. Neither H/G nor R/Hr are important when it comes to either the actual plot or characterization so I personally don't see the issue with minor "ship" alterations in the movies. I understand that it might not be everyone's cup of tea (I have my own problems with the movies) but I don't see why it should provoke more rage from the fandom than other deviations from canon.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by Sereena

Neither H/G nor R/Hr are important when it comes to either the actual plot or characterization so I personally don't see the issue with minor "ship" alterations in the movies.

Major disagree.

Ron was hugely insecure and part of that insecurity came from having Famous Harry Potter as a best friend and feeling "not good enough" for the girl he loves. Combine these and you get Ron being suspicious of Harry and Hermione's relationship, ideas which would have been brewing in his horcrux-laden mind and without that horcrux and thoughts such as these roaming through his head Ron never would have left.

Hermione is so upset by his leaving that neither she nor Harry say his name for weeks on end, referring, instead, to "Ginny's aunt" and thereby not giving Ron a way back to them until the right moment in the plot, weeks later when the pain of his abandonment has faded and they finally start saying his name again he can come back to them, but only when it's important for the plot that he does so; no Ron saving the day means Harry drowns in that lake...

Harry says that he thinks Ron should be the one to destroy the locket horcrux and they open it and it begins spewing insults and degrading things at Ron but it isn't until Horcrux Hermione kisses Horcrux Harry that Ron gets up the passion he needs to destroy the locket.

(Consequently, if Ron hadn't have left in the first place and been kept away for extended periods of time by Harry and Hermione refusing to say his name and give him a way back we wouldn't know about Potterwatch, we wouldn't have learned about the snatchers, Ron might not have had the idea to send the prisoners in the Malfoy's basement to Shell Cottage where he, himself, hid out during that time, the trio wouldn't have had a safe place to plan their heist on Gringotts, the whole Gringotts fiasco never would have taken place because Griphook might have died of his injuries or been sent to a reputable institution for treatment and rehabilitation...)

The R/Hr relationship might not have been a major factor in the books up until DH but without that groundwork being laid for the reader we would not have bought into these moments where that relationship does play a pivotal role in books.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

Major disagree.

Ron was hugely insecure and part of that insecurity came from having Famous Harry Potter as a best friend and feeling "not good enough" for the girl he loves. Combine these and you get Ron being suspicious of Harry and Hermione's relationship, ideas which would have been brewing in his horcrux-laden mind and without that horcrux and thoughts such as these roaming through his head Ron never would have left.

Just wanted to point out that Ron says in the books that the thoughts about Harry & Hermione liking each other were already inside his head, and the horcrux just made them worse. But they were definitely there. This is why Ron misinterpreted the relationship between Harry & Hermione -- it was filtered through his own insecurities that it could be true. Also, Ron's insecurities stem from his need to live up to his brothers' accomplishments. Having a famous best friend is another factor, but Harry is not the root cause of Ron's insecurities; we see Ron express them in the first book.

There's also the factor of the actors themselves, who've read the books. No matter what the director intended, or thought they caught on film (they were looking for it, kind of like Ron), it doesn't seem to me that any romantic intent comes across at all. The look from Harry at the end of the dance isn't a longing in a romantic sense -- it's Harry wishing he could do something to help Hermione out of her misery, but he realizes it's something he can fix.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Just wanted to point out that Ron says in the books that the thoughts about Harry & Hermione liking each other were already inside his head, and the horcrux just made them worse.

Dang! I had that written into my post but I must have deleted it... This is what I meant in bringing up Ron's insecurities, that the horcrux made them worse rather than putting them in his head.

Also, Ron's insecurities stem from his need to live up to his brothers' accomplishments. Having a famous best friend is another factor, but Harry is not the root cause of Ron's insecurities; we see Ron express them in the first book.

Yes, Ron's insecurities have roots in other factors but my purpose in bringing up the point here is to say that his feelings toward Hermione factored into those insecurities in that he felt so insecure in himself that he thought he wasn't worthy of Hermione or that she wouldn't choose him.

There's also the factor of the actors themselves, who've read the books. No matter what the director intended, or thought they caught on film (they were looking for it, kind of like Ron), it doesn't seem to me that any romantic intent comes across at all. The look from Harry at the end of the dance isn't a longing in a romantic sense -- it's Harry wishing he could do something to help Hermione out of her misery, but he realizes it's something he can fix.

To me the look was meant in a romantic way, a questioning way, like "are we going to do this?" and the reason, for me, that it doesn't come across successfully and part of the reason I don't like the scene is that the actors didn't have a lot of chemistry in that moment, they felt awkward together (and they have since GOF for me) and the scene didn't feel genuine in any way.

[ajna]

Originally Posted by Sereena

I've never understood why some fans had such a problem with the scene between Dan and Emma or why it had to be so controversial in the first place. Honestly, what is the big deal? Even if the filmmakers were trying to promote Harry/Hermione I still wouldn't see a problem. They play with the possibility something that even Rowling accepted that there was. That's what I think the movie does. They did make H/G and R/Hr canon so what is the problem? I thought it was nice to see Harry showing some empathy towards Hermione instead of ignoring her and leaving her to cry herself to sleep as he does in the books. It didn't make me raise my eyebrows (of course I'm not much into shipping so that's probably a factor but still).

I very much agree with and appreciate your post, Sereena. I also think the film makers just couldn't not explore the idea to some degree. And why not. With all the threads that question the realism of the sexuality in the series, and then just lose it over this.

[snugglepot]

Originally Posted by ajna

I very much agree with and appreciate your post, Sereena. I also think the film makers just couldn't not explore the idea to some degree. And why not. With all the threads that question the realism of the sexuality in the series, and then just lose it over this.

Why not?
Maybe because the film makers totally lost the plot on the CANON relationship that was Harry/Ginny.
How dare they waste valuable film time on such a pathetic and out of character scene that was completely the opposite of what happened in the book!
I will NEVER forgive them for what they did to my favourite couple and how all their scenes were either dropped or mutilated, while their "golden couple" (H/Hr, so excuse me while I throw up), get stupid uncanon scenes like this!

[Hes]

The scene doesn't really bother me. To me the movies are just interpretations of the books, JKR has approved them and in the future remakes will be made with different interpretations. Naturally everyone has a right to disagree with the interpretation of the director/writers.

For those loving Ron/Hermione the books are probably more valuable. I don't think there is any real need to abuse those responsible for the movies in very direct terms.

[Apheka]

Getting away from DH and dancing, I'm probably the only person who loved Harry and Ginny's kiss in HBP. Harry sort of tiptoed around his feelings but Ginny went straight ahead. If it hadn't been for the attack on the Burrow I think the kiss might have been after the shoelace being tied. It's easy to forget how first kisses are so hard to get right, the place, the time and does the other person feel the same. So yes, I loved the HBP kiss.

[snugglepot]

[staff edit]

Originally posted by Hes

I don't think there is any real need to abuse those responsible for the movies in very direct terms.

From the moment I read HBP, I imagined that passionate, "Several sunlit days" kiss on the screen. When it didn't eventuate I was mad and disappointed!
With this in mind, I think I have every right to vent my frustration at the movie-makers who ruined my most favourite moment in the whole series!

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by Hes

The scene doesn't really bother me. To me the movies are just interpretations of the books, JKR has approved them and in the future remakes will be made with different interpretations.

It'll be fifty years before anyone even considers the idea of remaking the movies and even then I think they'd do a condensed version of them - seen books in three or four movies; the film makers of this series were massively lucky when they got the three principals to stick around for all eight movies, not to mention the teachers, with the exception of Dumbledore, the minor characters, etc. Continuity like this in future films would be almost inconceivable, unless the films are remade after cloning has been perfected or once anti-aging treatments have become so effective they could turn a 30-year-old into a 15 year old for acting purposes. Or, I suppose, when CGI is so good all movies will be 100% CGI and actors will only supply the voices.

Naturally everyone has a right to disagree with the interpretation of the director/writers.

For those loving Ron/Hermione the books are probably more valuable. I don't think there is any real need to abuse those responsible for the movies in very direct terms.

Abuse those responsible, no. Critique the choices that they made, absolutely! In my comments, I don't mean to come across as livid with the writers, directors, actors, etc. but I do hold them responsible for the choices they made in these movies that I don't like or agree with and will give them all the credit they deserve for the good choices they made.

I feel like with the movies we can approach critiquing content in two ways: 1) was what they gave us canon? 2) if it wasn't canon, did it serve the story or plot in a more cinematically successful way than strict canon interpretation could have?

With the dance scene, since it wasn't canon it can only be critiqued according to the second method:

Was the dance scene cinematically appropriate? Yes; it was attempting to convey emotion through action and without the cheesy intrusiveness of a voice over of either character's thoughts.

Did it serve the story or plot? To me, not really. I felt like it was injected into the film for the sole purpose of giving us that "will they or won't they?" moment. For me, the dance scene was gratuitous and the ideas of that scene (conveying Hermione's heart ache, Harry's lack of motivation and their growing distance) would have been more successful in a scene that simultaneously kept the plot moving forward. I feel like those moments could have been woven into other scenes or a montage of scenes or something and been more successful.

Would a more strict adherence to canon to convey the necessary emotions of that moment have been more successful? I don't think so. I do think simply filming what happened in the book in this moment would have been incredibly boring; fiction and films are two different media and the story has to be changed in some ways in order to say the same thing on page and on screen. While I don't mind that things in the movies deviated from canon what I do mind is when the intent or spirit of the source materials is changed or blatantly disregarded so that the film can pander to a specific audience (H/Hr shippers).

The best example I can think of off the top of my head is the book/film adaptation of The General's Daughter by Nelson DeMille; a lot was changed from the book in order to make the story into a successful movie but the movie was only successful because they stayed true to the spirit and intent of the author's book. Characterizations stayed the same in both mediums, motivations stayed the same, the the basics stages of the plot stayed the same; what changed were either details or plot points that could be lost in order to streamline a 500-page book into a 120-minute long movie. The HP series book to movie adaptation changed whole characterizations which, by extention, changed character motivations and important plot points were left out in early movies so they had to be jerry-rigged into later ones and therefore never felt quite right. Part of the issue with the movies is that their popularity grew to such a huge ferver that movie makers couldn't wait to get their money-hungry hands in the HP cookie jar and they began filming the series before they knew the end of it and, consequently, screwed things up because of that. So what you get are movies that tell the same story as the books but with characters who pale in comparison to their book-selves in every way.

The dance scene in the movies didn't fit to me, neither in the context of the book-story with book-characters or in the film-story with film-characters. It stopped the forward movement of the plot so we could take time out and watch an interaction we know isn't going to go anywhere, it felt like filler material and if that scene were completely taken out of the theatrical release I am 90% sure absolutely no one would have missed it.

[Sereena]

First off GoddessClio let me just say that I agree with what you said about Ron's insecurity and how the dance might have conveyed the message that his insecurities might not have been completely unfounded. However, I think the movies did do justice to Ron's character as much as they could have. His argument with Harry in Gof is brought up in the movie as well. He does destroy the Horcrux in DH and the Horcrux does show him Harry and Hermione together. So I would say his insecurities were dealt with. I understand why someone would want that to have been done in a better way but let's not forget that the movies basically slaughtered all characters. Snape gets some back story, Dumbledore not so much, Voldemort does since it's a such a huge part of HBP that they couldn't leave it but otherwise I'm sure they would have. Neville and Luna get some development but much less than in the books. We don't find out anything about Molly's fears IIRC and I will not even get in to what they did to Bellatrix and Narcissa (oh and Sirius calling Harry James and all that awkwardness as well). When considering all this I think the dance scene is merely a drop in the ocean. The movies did ruin a lot, not just the ships but characterization, plot points as well as offered half baked explanations to plot points and so on. It's unavoidable that things like this would happen so I'm not blaming the filmmakers. Books lose a great deal when turned into movies.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

With the dance scene, since it wasn't canon it can only be critiqued according to the second method:
While I don't mind that things in the movies deviated from canon what I do mind is when the intent or spirit of the source materials is changed or blatantly disregarded so that the film can pander to a specific audience (H/Hr shippers).

I don't think the film makers were trying to please any sort of shippers but I think this argument does point towards why people hate that scene so much. I think it's simply because some shippers were glad to have "won" the shipping wars when DH came out and dislike the fact that their "rivals" are being offered support and flirted with by the WB crew. I'm not saying this is the case for you or for everyone but I think it is a factor. For some reason shipping Harry has always been controversial and this scene supports a ship many fans dislike and thought would sink after the publication of DH. I'm not saying this is an invalid reason to dislike the scene or that this is how everyone feels but I do think the controversy surrounding the scene is somehow related to this. Just my personal theory.