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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6



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  #221  
Old December 24th, 2011, 9:06 pm
LyraLovegood  Female.gif LyraLovegood is offline
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

No, the one glimpse we have of the relationship between Eileen and Tobias does not look like a happy one. But then, we see Eileen looking sullen and cross before her marriage as well, and years later on Platform Nine and Three Quarters. She looks unhappy every time we see her. Perhaps she was just the kind of person that wasn't going to be happy no matter what, and whether she had a Muggle husband, a pureblood husband, or a half=blood husband wouldn't change that.

And maybe that's why Snape seems to be so rarely happy. He had no-one in his family to demonstrate how to grin and bear it, look on the bright side, find the silver lining outlook on life.


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  #222  
Old December 24th, 2011, 9:21 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
No, the one glimpse we have of the relationship between Eileen and Tobias does not look like a happy one. But then, we see Eileen looking sullen and cross before her marriage as well, and years later on Platform Nine and Three Quarters. She looks unhappy every time we see her. Perhaps she was just the kind of person that wasn't going to be happy no matter what, and whether she had a Muggle husband, a pureblood husband, or a half=blood husband wouldn't change that.

And maybe that's why Snape seems to be so rarely happy. He had no-one in his family to demonstrate how to grin and bear it, look on the bright side, find the silver lining outlook on life.
Until he met Lily, that is. I think she brightened Snape's outlook for at least seven years.

I think Eileen married for love but her husband hated the magic. I think that reflects the problem with "mixed" marriages in the books, from the Riddles to the Dumbledores. And according to Pottermore, even McGonagall rejected an offer from a Muggle man she loved because she didn't want to limit herself. (And I don't think that makes her a Pureblood Supremicist either, but simply realistic according to the canon.)


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Last edited by silver ink pot; December 24th, 2011 at 9:27 pm.
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  #223  
Old December 26th, 2011, 5:54 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Andromeda married a Muggleborn, Ted Tonks. i think they were happy.

Snape could have had other friends that helped him relax and be happy. He was just classified as an odd kid when he came to Hogwarts.


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  #224  
Old December 26th, 2011, 5:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Until he met Lily, that is. I think she brightened Snape's outlook for at least seven years.
. . .
While Lily did demonstrate a more positive outlook on life, Lily was not part of Snape's family.

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Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
Andromeda married a Muggleborn, Ted Tonks. i think they were happy.
Andromeda was a pureblood, but not a pureblood supremacist. And Ted went to Hogwarts and was magical -- Muggleborn, not unmagical Muggle. Tobias Snape was a Muggle, and I think that is what Severus Snape looked down on: inablility to perform magic. I think he demonstrates this in his contempt toward Petunia.

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Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
Snape could have had other friends that helped him relax and be happy. He was just classified as an odd kid when he came to Hogwarts.
While it's possible that he might have had some happy friends around whom he could relax, I think the text hints at Snape being a loner for the most part. I don't think he'd have been hiding in the bushes watching the Evans girls play, for example, if he'd had other friends in the neighborhood. And at Hogwarts, I think he'd have been with his friends after taking his DADA OWL instead of all by himself going over his answers if he hadn't been a loner.


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Last edited by LyraLovegood; December 27th, 2011 at 5:43 pm. Reason: fix typo
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  #225  
Old December 27th, 2011, 8:08 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
Tobias Snape was a Muggle, and I think that is what Severus Snape looked down on: inablility to perform magic. I think he demonstrates this in his contempt toward Petunia.
I'm not so sure Snape looked down on those with the inability to perform magic. Petunia laughed at him when he said he was a wizard and derided him for making such a claim. His retort was more of a defense of what he was in contrast to her contempt in the first place. Perhaps if she hadn't responded so negatively to his statements from the very start, they might have gotten on better.

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Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
While it's possible that he might have had some happy friends around whom he could relax, I think the text hints at Snape being a loner for the most part. I don't think he'd have been hiding in the bushes watching the Evans girls play, for example, if he'd had other friends in the neighborhood.
Very definitely. He lived in a Muggle neighborhood and just the magic he performed may have ostracized him from children living nearby, not to mention personal habits. On top of that, children from dysfunctional families tend to have trouble socializing.

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Originally Posted by LyraLovegood View Post
And at Hogwarts, I think he'd have been with his friends after taking his DADA OWL instead of all by himself going over his answers if he hadn't been a loner.
It must have been a heady experience for Snape to be accepted so readily by his fellow Slytherins, yet he did seem more inclined toward scholarship than many of them.


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  #226  
Old December 27th, 2011, 11:40 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Until he met Lily, that is. I think she brightened Snape's outlook for at least seven years.

I think Eileen married for love but her husband hated the magic. I think that reflects the problem with "mixed" marriages in the books, from the Riddles to the Dumbledores. And according to Pottermore, even McGonagall rejected an offer from a Muggle man she loved because she didn't want to limit herself. (And I don't think that makes her a Pureblood Supremicist either, but simply realistic according to the canon.)
I tend to think you're right, especially in light of the revelations in Pottermore about having to lock their wands away and not use magic. I'd not thought of "using magic in the presence of Muggles" to include spouses, but I guess it did. So, being married to a Muggle meant no more magic. Maybe that's what riled Tobias -- that Eileen couldn't use her magic to better their lot and they were doomed to live in Spinner's End, even though, hypothetically, she could have "enchanced" their lives through magic (i.e., maybe helped him get a good job or win the lottery...whatever he might have had in mind). Then, when she couldn't do that, he took it out on Severus when he had incidents of "accidental magic" as a child.

Maybe Tobias couldn't understand the rules: that underage magic was overlooked because it couldn't be controlled, but "wand-age" magic was forbidden in front of Muggles. He may also have been the butt of jokes because of Severus' magic, or may have had to make restitution because of some damages Severus did with accidental magic. There are many reasons he might have disliked magic, along with the fact that he didn't like "much of anything," implying that Severus was included in that.

As for Severus being a loner as a child, that seems pretty clear. He is always alone when we see him in the memories, until he connects with LIly. Even at Hogwarts, he seems to be alone, except for hanging around with Avery and Mulciber. But we don't even see how much he's around them. Obviously they weren't around when SWM happened since he was alone when he left the castle and while he was sitting under the tree. Severus doesn't approach Lily and the group she's with (which probably indicates that she was sitting with a group of Gryffindors), and she doesn't leave them and go over to him even though I'd guess that he'd expressed his concerns to her, as his best friend, about the O.W.L.S. and how well he would do. This, IMO, would have been a time one friend would have comforted another.I've always wondered why Lily didn't go over to him at that time and ask how he thought he'd done, etc., since she was already outside when he came out.


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  #227  
Old December 28th, 2011, 4:59 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
I tend to think you're right, especially in light of the revelations in Pottermore about having to lock their wands away and not use magic. I'd not thought of "using magic in the presence of Muggles" to include spouses, but I guess it did. So, being married to a Muggle meant no more magic. Maybe that's what riled Tobias -- that Eileen couldn't use her magic to better their lot and they were doomed to live in Spinner's End, even though, hypothetically, she could have "enchanced" their lives through magic (i.e., maybe helped him get a good job or win the lottery...whatever he might have had in mind). Then, when she couldn't do that, he took it out on Severus when he had incidents of "accidental magic" as a child.
I have not seen anything in Pottermore to indicate that magic people married to Muggles are prevented from using magic by Wizarding law. Rather, they seem to be prevented either directly or indirectly by their Muggle spouses. So I don't think that Eileen was legally prevented from using magic to enhance their lives. It seems more likely to me that Tobias prevented her.

The one thing that seems to be a common thread in all the stories of mixed marriages is that the Muggle spouse is unaware of the magic spouse's magic until at some point in the marriage. I think it's likely that Eileen's story conforms to this pattern and that Tobias had no idea he was marrying a witch and was quite shocked when he found out.


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  #228  
Old December 28th, 2011, 7:07 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
I have not seen anything in Pottermore to indicate that magic people married to Muggles are prevented from using magic by Wizarding law. Rather, they seem to be prevented either directly or indirectly by their Muggle spouses. So I don't think that Eileen was legally prevented from using magic to enhance their lives. It seems more likely to me that Tobias prevented her.

The one thing that seems to be a common thread in all the stories of mixed marriages is that the Muggle spouse is unaware of the magic spouse's magic until at some point in the marriage. I think it's likely that Eileen's story conforms to this pattern and that Tobias had no idea he was marrying a witch and was quite shocked when he found out.
I may have misunderstood, but, in the background given by JKR on Pottermore, I interpreted "wand locked away" as something that a witch married to a Muggle would have to do since they could not use magic in front of Muggles under the Secrecy Act. It doesn't say "except for spouses". So, I would think that, upon marrying a Muggle the magical person would have to hide their ability and try to cope with any magical talents that their children displayed.

That might possibly have been when most Muggles found out the truth...when the children showed magical abilities and the magical person had to cover it or fess up. Seamus said his father was pretty upset when he found out. Maybe some of the Muggles felt that they'd been tricked or had a love potion used on them, whether they had or not.

This could have been some of the problem between Tobias and Eileen. Not all, by any means, since Tobias was an abuser and that is not something that is "caused" but is a problem that he had before he ever met Eileen. But, his finding out he was "tricked" may have helped him to feel "justified" in his abuse of both her and Severus. I think the resentment Severus has toward Muggles, as exhibited with Petunia, is caused by his father's abuse rather than his mother's influence. If she disliked Muggles, I don't think she would have married one. I also don't see Tobias restricting Eileen from using her magic if he thought it could better their lot. Just the opposite. I think he would have encouraged her to do so. He may have resented the fact that she couldn't use magic in that way. Maybe we'll get more background on them in Pottermore some day.


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  #229  
Old January 7th, 2012, 12:50 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

[staff edit off topic]

I see Snape as a very flawed character who made some very huge mistakes and could be very harsh at times, but in the end chose to work with Dumbledore to protect Harry, and to work as a spy to defeat Voldemort. A character who lost his life while spying for the Order was not a villain, IMHO.

[staff edit off topic]


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  #230  
Old January 21st, 2012, 8:06 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

My, my, look how empty this Thread of Awesome has been. This simply will not do.

I notice that, quite conveniently, we've only ever seen Snape teach potions classes between Gryffindors and Slytherins, a class inevitably emotionally- and politically-charged. How do you imagine he teaches his Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw potions classes?


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  #231  
Old January 21st, 2012, 8:26 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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. How do you imagine he teaches his Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw potions classes?
Ravenclaws in general have a thirst for knowledge, while Hufflepuffs work hard. I'd say both groups take their school work seriously, and neither house seemed to view the other as rivals.

My guess is that he could simply teach, without having to focus any on discipline or inattention, or making sure he was perceived positively by those in his own house.

I wish we could have seen him interact with Luna in class, though. I would think she'd have the ability to view things in unique ways, and she could also be very straightforward.


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  #232  
Old January 21st, 2012, 10:57 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Ravenclaws in general have a thirst for knowledge, while Hufflepuffs work hard. I'd say both groups take their school work seriously, and neither house seemed to view the other as rivals.

My guess is that he could simply teach, without having to focus any on discipline or inattention, or making sure he was perceived positively by those in his own house.

I wish we could have seen him interact with Luna in class, though. I would think she'd have the ability to view things in unique ways, and she could also be very straightforward.
I agree that the attitude of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff students may have been very different and that they were likely to work hard. I suspect that there weren't rivalries between individual students either in these classes - Malfoy and Harry being the prime example in the Gryffindor and Slytherin classes. Also there wouldn't be the issue of bias - the Gryffindor's hated Snape because he favoured the Slytherins.. I suspect that he would have treated the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws more equally.

But I would have paid many galleons to see Snape teach Luna - I wonder what he thought of the danger of nargles and wrackspurts?


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  #233  
Old January 22nd, 2012, 4:17 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

would Luna have mentioned Nagles and wrackspurts in potions? Nargles were supposed to be small beings that infested some plants, like mistletoe and wrackspurts were invisible but buzzed around your head and made your brain grow fuzzy. She might have talked about other creatures that they used in potions.
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  #234  
Old January 22nd, 2012, 6:23 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkiedoodle View Post
I agree that the attitude of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff students may have been very different and that they were likely to work hard. I suspect that there weren't rivalries between individual students either in these classes - Malfoy and Harry being the prime example in the Gryffindor and Slytherin classes. Also there wouldn't be the issue of bias - the Gryffindor's hated Snape because he favoured the Slytherins.. I suspect that he would have treated the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws more equally.

But I would have paid many galleons to see Snape teach Luna - I wonder what he thought of the danger of nargles and wrackspurts?
Snape just stares at Luna along with everyone else when she talks about the Rotfang Conspiracy in HBP at Slughorn's party.

And it's a classic Snape scene because they get interrupted by something important before anyone can react. Filch brings Draco into view dragging him by his ear for party crashing, and that leads into Snape's conversation with him in the Hallway that Harry overhears.


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  #235  
Old January 22nd, 2012, 2:15 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

From the Harry Potter Character thread:

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
For me, the amount of time Harry had to reflect makes no difference because it doesn't change the fact that Snape hated him and would have hated Harry naming one of his kids after him - which makes the act disrespecful, IMO.
With all due respect we don't know exactly what Snape would have thought about it. For all we know he may have felt that at last Harry had recognised his efforts. Snape does seem to show some pleasure when Harry understands that his job for the Order is spying on Voldemort.

"No that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him.
He had not meant to say it;it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.
"Yes Potter,"he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again."
(OotP, Seen and Unforseen)

So I just don't think we can asssume that Snape would have completely hated it.


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  #236  
Old January 22nd, 2012, 2:44 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Snape, of course, was long dead before Harry named his son. However, before his death, we are shown a definite shift of his stance on Harry. The moment SIP brings up is certainly one in which we see Snape seeming satisfied by Harry's understanding of his role. But we are shown a more dramatic and far-reaching shift in "The Elder Wand" and "The Prince's Tale".

We learn that, when Harry was a baby, Snape swore Dumbledore to secrecy on the matter of his motivations and his choce to protect Harry.

DH, "The Prince's Tale"At last he said, “Very well. Very well. But never—never tell, Dumbledore! This must be between us! Swear it! I cannot bear . . . especially Potter’s son . . . I want your word!”
“My word, Severus, that I shall never reveal the best of you?” Dumbledore sighed, looking down into Snape’s ferocious, anguished face. “If you insist . . . ”


But then, when he is dying and Harry comes to him, Snape expends his final effort and dying moments desperately trying to convey his memories to Harry. He pulls Harry to himself, he urges Harry to take his memories, forcing the words out despite the trauma to his neck and throat, and dies when the memories and his blood leave him.

And what he conveys in this final communication to Harry, is far more that the one thing Dumbledore has asked Snape to convey, the one thing Harry needs to know so that Voldemort could be defeated. Harry learns that Snape loved Lily almost all his life, that and that he was true to Dumbledore and the mission he had accepted to protect Harry. Because Snape told him.

Did Snape anticipate that this would change Harry's views and feelings of him? I don't think it was a matter he gave much thought, as his own expectation at this point would have been that Harry would shortly join him in death. But, having made these formerly intolerable revelations to Harry, I see no evidence he would "hate" Harry's reaction of gratitude and respect. He was often unpleasant to Harry, yes. As was Harry to him. We do not have any instance in which Harry expressed appreciation of Snape from which to judge that Snape would reject it or be hurt by it, only the one instance of a backhanded compliment which Snape accepted.

Snape certainly never invited any such expression from Harry through his usual demeanor in their interactions, or through any revelations to Harry of his actions or intentions. Except that one time, in the end.


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  #237  
Old January 22nd, 2012, 3:12 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

IMO the reason Snape gave Harry all of it was to convince Harry that Snape was on the right side. All those memories show that Snape truly loved Lily and wasn't something he made up to fool Dumbledore. I also think he did it because he was going to die. He wouldn't ever have to face Harry with the knowledge that Harry knew that he loved his mother.

I think at the end of it all, I don't think Snape would've cared if he'd known that Harry would name his kid after him as long as Snape was dead at the time.


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  #238  
Old January 22nd, 2012, 5:16 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
IMO the reason Snape gave Harry all of it was to convince Harry that Snape was on the right side.
That was just half of it -- he had to convince Harry of his true motivations so that Harry would believe the memory of DD telling Snape Harry had to die.

This ties into the free giving of Harry's life so that the blood protection would be extended to everyone fighting on the side of Light. Would Harry have believed Snape if all he'd done is give Harry the one memory? I don't think so -- the memories of Lily would have had to precede them so that Harry would understand Snape's true role and motivation.


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  #239  
Old January 22nd, 2012, 5:20 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
IMO the reason Snape gave Harry all of it was to convince Harry that Snape was on the right side. All those memories show that Snape truly loved Lily and wasn't something he made up to fool Dumbledore.
You mean, for the pragmatic reason of having Harry believe his message? He could have trusted to the (fairly convincing) evidence of the memories within the timeline of the series. Just the memory Harry really needed, alone, proved the Silver Doe was Snape's Patronus, and Snape thus was the mysterious provider of the Sword of Gryffindor.


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Old January 22nd, 2012, 5:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

What really surprises me is the inclusion of the memory in which Snape is crying over Lily's letter. This is the same person who made that speech about "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves." It strikes me as incredibly significant that Snape was willing to show such emotion, especially since he had no idea Harry knew of the letter.

Personally, I think TT's quote (and Snape's own complaints to DD) suggests that Snape wanted some form of recognition for his efforts, even if it was impossible to get for a spy in his position. Would he have wanted such recognition from Harry? Well, he may have no personal affection for Harry, but Harry was someone who benefitted greatly from Snape's efforts. I imagine that while Snape would outwardly snark at such a sentimental gesture, inside he'd feel at least a little glad Harry finally came to appreciate what had been done for him.

And to answer my own question...

Quote:
How do you imagine he teaches his Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw potions classes?
I was thinking over this a little, and from what I've noticed, Snape's primary method is to give instructions, ask the students to perform those instructions, and then observe and correct any errors. With this in mind, I imagine Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff classes to follow that same method. Sure, some Hufflepuffs might mess up now and again, but unless Luna decides to make Nargle repellent, I think the Ravenclaws would in general please Snape (or, at least, earn an approving nod from him ).


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