Watchmen

[vampiricduck]

I am rather surprised no one has brought this up yet, especially given it's current popular stream in the media because of the new film.

So, anyone who has read it, talk about it here!

Favourite characters or moments, things you agreed or disagreed with?
The politics? Rorschach? Dr. Manhattan and the idea of a Super Human who simply can change the world at a second's notice?

What did you think, overall, of the story arc and the involvement of the "Tale of the Black Freighter" comic as a backstory?

[NumberEight]

To be honest, I do not think the comic is as great as people say it is, that it is literary genius and one of the finest "novels" (it's a comic, not a novel) from the 20th century.

How do I like the story? It's good, except I hate the Black Freighter stuff and the retarded ending. Can someone tell me exactly what the Black Freighter is supposed to mean? Reading that and seeing the guy reading it throughout the comic became tiresome and boring.

[vampiricduck]

It's a representation of the overall story of Watchmen. It represents the fact that sometimes, a man gets lost and tries to find himself, only to discover later, on doing the deeds that allow him to succeed, he finds that he has changed and that the world is, in fact, the same- and it no longer wants him in his new form.

I loved the symbolism of the Black Freighter story. I truly do. I also adore the novel- and I do believe it is a novel because "comic", a long time ago, came to represent the funnies in a newspaper. Watchmen is so much more than that. It tells a story of depth, deception, hurt and abject misery, tied to a sense that all hope is lost and that the world is damned. We are later to discover that it is not the world, but those watching it, that make us lose out.

The question of "who watches the Watchmen" or "Quis custodiet ipsos custodiet", in Latin and quoted from Plato's The Republic, is the question that rests with everyone to this day- who will guard the guards themselves? Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons gave a lot of thought to the story and the way it would be shown. The fact remains that today, we have seen everything in Watchmen really, save the devastating ending and the dawn of the Manhattan era.

The book will always represent something huge for me. The first time I read it, I was only 11. It taught me a great deal about life in only a few hundred pages and I will always ardently respect the story it puts in front of me. We can never be sure about the safety of our saviours.

[Rosin_Nevery_F]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

It's a representation of the overall story of Watchmen. It represents the fact that sometimes, a man gets lost and tries to find himself, only to discover later, on doing the deeds that allow him to succeed, he finds that he has changed and that the world is, in fact, the same- and it no longer wants him in his new form.

I loved the symbolism of the Black Freighter story. I truly do. I also adore the novel- and I do believe it is a novel because "comic", a long time ago, came to represent the funnies in a newspaper. Watchmen is so much more than that. It tells a story of depth, deception, hurt and abject misery, tied to a sense that all hope is lost and that the world is damned. We are later to discover that it is not the world, but those watching it, that make us lose out.

The question of "who watches the Watchmen" or "Quis custodiet ipsos custodiet", in Latin and quoted from Plato's The Republic, is the question that rests with everyone to this day- who will guard the guards themselves? Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons gave a lot of thought to the story and the way it would be shown. The fact remains that today, we have seen everything in Watchmen really, save the devastating ending and the dawn of the Manhattan era.

The book will always represent something huge for me. The first time I read it, I was only 11. It taught me a great deal about life in only a few hundred pages and I will always ardently respect the story it puts in front of me. We can never be sure about the safety of our saviours.

...sounds very intriguing--will look it up for sure!

recently i've been examining the principle of "Panopticon": where all the prisoners are divided and only the watchman sees them all at once. Pan-Opticon, something like "see all" (at once).

...mentioning Plato makes me think of the cave alegory of Plato, though probably different theme--but very pertinent to sorcery/shamanism of how our everiday-life view is clowded to make us unaware of our true limitless ener'getic possibilities while we are trapped staring at the flat shadows projected on the wall of the cave thinking that it is the "world" and "reality", missing the whole interplay the actually goes on behind the scenes... matrix

[BubblyShell22]

I read this comic for my Graphic Novel class. It was pretty good, too. I don't have a fave character since I only read it once.

[vampiricduck]

I always had huge trouble picking a favourite character. Time after time my mind returns to Rorschach. I violently disagree with him and always will, but he won me over hugely with the idea that we can never compromise if we are to achieve true good. The only question is whether he was achieving real good or not. I don't think he was, and I disagree with him and his choices without a doubt. It's hard to say he's my favourite when in fact I have nothing more than utter disdain for him. , so complex!!

[Corvus]

My brother made me read it before i got to see the movie (well i didn't need much convincing... At all) And i'm glad he did. I really loved it, i like stories which play in the grey areas rather than taking the easy way and point out "this is good and this is bad" and which makes the reader think for themselves rather than giving out all the answers.
My favourite character was.... Rorschach, i think. He just was overall such an cool and somewhat complex character that i can't help but to like him also, The Comedian was to my liking.

[snapegirl]

I just began reading it. I'm curious to see what was cut from the movie. I'm enjoying it so far, I like the bits of the first Nite Owl's book that are included.

[vampiricduck]

The bits that are cut from the move... well, you'll have to look pretty hard, though the ending is, I suppose, different in a general sense.

I hope you enjoy it!

The thing about it is that it was so far beyond its time. Today we like to talk about dystopia, what causes it and the bad people behind it. If this were A Clockwork Orange, Rorschach would not be any kind of hero; he would be the antagonist. Watchmen turns conception on its head and makes us rethink the system and how it works. It challenged everything I believed in- and I think that's probably the best way to enjoy it.

[snapegirl]

I finished the other night and I really enjoyed it.

I can't wait until the movie comes out on DVD, so I can see it again and really compare the two.

I think I liked the book better though. I especially liked the way Laurie is in the book over the movie. I'm not sure why, she just seemed more "real." I also loved the extra bits at the end of each chapter, they were a nice touch.

[vampiricduck]

Laurie in the book is much more accessible. She's really out there and truly does have issues that are worth noting. I felt the movie sort of left a lot of that out- the static oddity that was her relationship with Dr Manhattan and the overall passion that she's more than capable of showing all sort of combine to make her sporadic and hurt; it's a partial fairytale that she finds what she's looking for in such an unlikely person. I think the movie left her down a little, turned her into more of a sex symbol and less of a human being- lost, alone and utterly degraded.

I love the entire section on Mars at the end. His interior knowledge that she'll end up crying and the fact that she just can't defeat that truth is something that consternates her hugely and it provides a great climax to the story- and I do think that that moment of realisation is the climax. An interesting character to keep that central, pivotal moment on. I would have expected it to be Rorschach, but I was pleasantly surprised by the change of tone and pace. Rorschach displays so much inequity that to see a real human in crisis was cuttingly tense and entirely necessary.

[Perlidia]

Originally Posted by vampiricduck

I always had huge trouble picking a favourite character. Time after time my mind returns to Rorschach. I violently disagree with him and always will, but he won me over hugely with the idea that we can never compromise if we are to achieve true good. The only question is whether he was achieving real good or not. I don't think he was, and I disagree with him and his choices without a doubt. It's hard to say he's my favourite when in fact I have nothing more than utter disdain for him. , so complex!!

Rorschach is without a doubt my favorite character.

Spoiler: show

I love that he won't change his ideals for anything including the greater good and would rather die. He is extreme like all the characters in the book, Alan Moore left no grey areas in his characters (with the exception of both night owls maybe) for his perfect satire. And yet the whole plot is one big grey area - is it better to cause such devastation for a lasting peace or should "we never compromise if we are to achieve true good"? Masterpiece!
I can't say I disagree with Rorschach completely - there are certain disgustingly horrible acts that deserve (maybe not so extreme) Rorschach attention.

[AldeberanBlack]

It's a masterpiece. The movie improves the ending significantly, but otherwise, the novel is brilliant.

The storyline is still as significant today as it was back during the Cold War. One simply needs to replace communism as "the enemy" with terrorism....religious fundamentalism....North Korea....Iran....captalism...etc....and the story remains the same.

Tales Of the Black Freighter for example I think is very relevant as a cautionary tale of hysteria and paranoia overwelming someone's sense of reason and logic.

[zelinskas]

Rorschach is definitely my favorite character (I'm obviously not the only one). I do agree with alot of his ideologies. Some see him as crazy, I see him as an uncompromising man who holds to his convictions no matter what.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Loved it. While I disagree with Rorschach's personal politics, I am definitely in agreement with the notion that one's ideals, one's morals, and one's humanity cannot be sacrificed so wantonly for the greater good. Because the greater good is not necessarily a true good.

[vampiricduck]

Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack

It's a masterpiece. The movie improves the ending significantly, but otherwise, the novel is brilliant.

The storyline is still as significant today as it was back during the Cold War. One simply needs to replace communism as "the enemy" with terrorism....religious fundamentalism....North Korea....Iran....captalism...etc....and the story remains the same.

Tales Of the Black Freighter for example I think is very relevant as a cautionary tale of hysteria and paranoia overwelming someone's sense of reason and logic.

Tales of the Black Freighter still freaks me out to this day. It's convoluted and disruptive of our eternal hope that everything will be okay. There's so much dark imagery in it (even in the words, not just the actual images!) that to even consider it- and you do have to consider it in order to better understand the overall theme arc- is somewhat degrading.

I think that small story will always leave a bad taste in my mouth; it makes me feel slightly uneasy.

Originally Posted by CrimsonZephyr

Loved it. While I disagree with Rorschach's personal politics, I am definitely in agreement with the notion that one's ideals, one's morals, and one's humanity cannot be sacrificed so wantonly for the greater good. Because the greater good is not necessarily a true good.

It's true what's being said in this thread- a message like that has remained with readers of Watchmen through the end of a generation and a movement into the next. The fact that Watchmen creates a perfect Catch 22 situation shows above all else that what we believe in, no matter who we are or where we're from- will consistently be challenged. The thing is that there are people who agree with Veidt- or at least agree with his ideals. There are people, many of them, who admire Rorschach despite the fact that at his core, his fundamentalism is a danger. And there are people who consider the Night Owl (II), who wanted what was best, but in the end can't quite define that.

No matter where you look, or whatever other book you'll read, whatever film you'll see, the principle behind Watchmen will always be hugely relevant.

I just don't think it had ever truly been put to us in such a stark manner and with such an abundance of relevance, before.

[AldeberanBlack]

The one thing I didn't like about Watchman was the artwork. It seemed very "pulpy" to me (that may have been the point, but I still didn't like it). I prefer something more like Alex Ross' style.