Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

And there is no real reason for this to be an effect of Priori Incantatem either. In fact the odds that it isn’t holds closer to how magic works in JKR’s world.

No indeed, but then it isn't me who is suggesting that this is a problem. You brought up the issue as something which is unexplainable through any theories but your own; I am simply saying that it is not.

And I recall reading in your previous posts that spells were very, very specific–that the Portus charm could not be touch activated because all the other instances were timed (hence the use of your “timer” spell, which I thought quite elegant, btw.) Have you changed your mind on spell specificity?

I'm not sure how this relates. To which part of my post were you replying?

On the subject, though, I don't know if I ever really discounted the possibility that portkeys can be made two different ways. I know that I came up with the timer spell in order to appease those who demanded a unified method for the Portus spell.

And I read it as telepathy–the song and the words felt like they were inside him. The word are italicized, as thoughts usually are:

But where is this information coming from and why? I hear folks disregarding my interpretation, but I’m not hearing anything to explain it.

Well, here's what I see. You indicated in your previous post that this particular passage was unexplainable by any other theories because no theory explained who said it. Clearly, then, this is only an issue if we assume that someone did actually say it. That was how I interpreted your post, so I was pointing out that considering a different interpretation of the passage easily solved that issue.

Now, as for anything to explain it, I felt that the passage was indicating that Harry's connection with Voldemort's wand created this sort of agonizing battle between them, and also created the phoenix song, which comforted Harry. As such, the reassuring feeling which Harry got from the song was 'almost like' someone telling him that the connection would be positive for him. Sort of like seeing a light at the end of a long, dark tunnel, it told him to keep pressing onward because he related phoenix song with good things, just like we might relate light with freedom.

But if Voldemort knows Harry can escape using the cup, why doesn’t he prevent it? He has ample time to do so.

This is an important point to consider. I have considered that perhaps portkeys are not able to be physically moved without activating or deactivating them. And of course, if we consider that he wanted the cup available to take Harry back in mangled corpse form, then it makes sense that he didn't want to risk activating it or deactivating it, whichever the case may be.

Secondly, it may simply have been a case of not wanting to draw Harry's attention to his only possible escape.

Thirdly, it may have been arrogance.

Mirrormere, I do want to say that I think that your notion of the cup being a sort of innate portkey is a good one. I never considered it, but I feel like it fits much better with Crouch Jr.'s quotes under Veritaserum.

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Actually, there is only one type-timed. The so-called "touch activated" Portkeys, the ones DD makes in OotP are also timed. Reread carefully. The travelers are all touching the Portkey as DD counts down.

This comment confuses me for two reasons. First is the simple one--I can't remember what the other portkey you're talking about is. I clearly remember him giving the golden head to Harry and counting down, but I don't recall the previous one.

The second reason, however, is that this suggests that either the cup portkey was timed, or that it wasn't a portkey. How can either of those things be true?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

This comment confuses me for two reasons. First is the simple one--I can't remember what the other portkey you're talking about is. I clearly remember him giving the golden head to Harry and counting down, but I don't recall the previous one.

The other one would have been the one which transported the family and Harry to Grimmauld after Arthur's attack.

[canismajoris]

Ah, thank you. So there are in fact two kinds of portkeys, even if we discount touch activation: Ones which are set to jump at a given time, and ones which can operate on a countdown at any time.

In GoF, the chapter appropriately called "The Portkey," Mr. Weasley specifically mentions the first manner: "They're objects that are used to transport wizards from one spot to another at a prearranged time."

However clearly this is not how Dumbledore created his portkey--it's literally impossible.

1. First, he creates the portkey even before everyone is anywhere near his office.
2. Second, he is delayed by having to get Phineas Nigellus' attention, calling him repeatedly.
3. Then other portraits interject reminders to Phineas that he is bound to assist Dumbledore, which involves several different portraits commenting.
4. Next, the other Weasleys arrive, and Dumbledore fields some questions, including about what has happened, and he even takes the time to explain why they are not traveling by Floo powder.
5. Then, Dumbledore says, "We are just waiting for Phineas Nigellus to report back ... I want to be sure that the coast is clear before sending you--" which more than somewhat suggests that he does not know when it will be safe to send them.
6. Then, Dumbledore gives instructions to McGonagall regarding Fawkes's warning, which he must have hoped he wouldn't receive at all given the frantic way he dispatches McGonagall to deal with it.
7. Finally, before he sends the Weasleys and Harry, he says, "quickly, before anyone else joins us," not "quickly, or you'll miss the portkey."

There is no plausible way Dumbledore could have foreseen each of the delays and interruptions I listed and known the precise moment it would be opportune to have everyone gather around his desk. Plus, I should point out, he is counting up, not counting down, so that rather suggests that he was then and there telling the portkey when to go, not simply indicating when the portkey would go by itself.

What I'm saying is that the Portus spell obviously involves a greater degree of control than simply setting a timer and walking away. Having it activated by touch doesn't seem all that different from having it activated on a whim just by counting to three, or from setting it to travel at 9:38 AM GMT.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

Ah, thank you. So there are in fact two kinds of portkeys, even if we discount touch activation: Ones which are set to jump at a given time, and ones which can operate on a countdown at any time.

In GoF, the chapter appropriately called "The Portkey," Mr. Weasley specifically mentions the first manner: "They're objects that are used to transport wizards from one spot to another at a prearranged time."

However clearly this is not how Dumbledore created his portkey--it's literally impossible.

1. First, he creates the portkey even before everyone is anywhere near his office.
2. Second, he is delayed by having to get Phineas Nigellus' attention, calling him repeatedly.
3. Then other portraits interject reminders to Phineas that he is bound to assist Dumbledore, which involves several different portraits commenting.
4. Next, the other Weasleys arrive, and Dumbledore fields some questions, including about what has happened, and he even takes the time to explain why they are not traveling by Floo powder.
5. Then, Dumbledore says, "We are just waiting for Phineas Nigellus to report back ... I want to be sure that the coast is clear before sending you--" which more than somewhat suggests that he does not know when it will be safe to send them.
6. Then, Dumbledore gives instructions to McGonagall regarding Fawkes's warning, which he must have hoped he wouldn't receive at all given the frantic way he dispatches McGonagall to deal with it.
7. Finally, before he sends the Weasleys and Harry, he says, "quickly, before anyone else joins us," not "quickly, or you'll miss the portkey."

There is no plausible way Dumbledore could have foreseen each of the delays and interruptions I listed and known the precise moment it would be opportune to have everyone gather around his desk. Plus, I should point out, he is counting up, not counting down, so that rather suggests that he was then and there telling the portkey when to go, not simply indicating when the portkey would go by itself.

What I'm saying is that the Portus spell obviously involves a greater degree of control than simply setting a timer and walking away. Having it activated by touch doesn't seem all that different from having it activated on a whim just by counting to three, or from setting it to travel at 9:38 AM GMT.

Hang on, isn't it possible that Dumbledore placed the Portus spell non-verbally immediately before counting down?

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Hang on, isn't it possible that Dumbledore placed the Portus spell non-verbally immediately before counting down?

No, there's a description of him pointing at the teapot and saying "Portus" earlier in the scene.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by canismajoris

No, there's a description of him pointing at the teapot and saying "Portus" earlier in the scene.

OK, fair enough then. In that case, I can't argue with your reasoning. It certainly seems ridiculous to have the portkey set for a specific time.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

But we have two examples of him guessing to the exact last three seconds (the Portkey to Grimmauld Place and the Portkey to his office) so why not the exact second?

He was in full control of the situation though. He'd set a timer for around 20 seconds, ask people to touch it and off they go. After reading canismajoris' post, it seems quite likely that the portkey to Grimmauld Place wasn't timed either.

In any case, it is practically impossible for anyone, regardless of brain power, to get the timings exactly right. There are simply too many variables, each of which would alter the timing. The best Dumbledore could do would be to have an upper and lower bound on the time it would take Harry to get to it.

IMO timed portkeys exist because it would be pretty hard to co-ordinate n number of people touching it at the exact same time.

Why? If his senses are limited to what he can hear through Fawkes, how does he know where Harry's location is?

If Dumbledore had no idea about Harry's location, why would he levitate the two to a different location ? He'd had to have had some sort of spatial awareness to be able to move them. He'd also need it to know the distance between Harry and cup if he was going to make calculations on how long it would take for Harry to reach the cup.

Could he? We know Apparation is limited by distance, though I'm not sure what Fawkes does could be considered Apparation.

Does Fawkes know Harry's actual location, or can he just hear what's going on and connect DD? Distance seems to be a factor in how magic operates.

Fawkes could teleport himself and someone along with him. Fawkes also has the ability to send only its feathers. We've seen him use it to warn Dumbledore and later send a message from Molly to Grimmauld Place. Fawkes should have been aware of the location of its own feathers, if the connection between the wands was powerful enough to create a link with Fawkes.
Also, if Dumbledore was able to communicate to Harry using Fawkes, why just tell him the one line ?

But then why wasn't that a solution in Chamber of Secrets? Why isn't that a solution at the end of every book?

Fawkes and Dumbledore had to be aware of Harry's location for him to turn up and help.

Fawkes did turn up in Chamber of Secrets. Fawkes brought the Hat, took out the Basilisk's eyes, healed Harry and then dropped the diary onto Harry's lap.

He turns up in OoTP to swallow an AK aimed at Dumbledore.

In HBP, the fact that Fawkes didn't turn up to rescue Dumbledore on the Astronomy Tower was one of my main reasons for believing that Dumbledore intended to die that night.


I think if Dumbledore had played a role in helping Harry in the graveyard, he would have told Harry about it. Also I believe Harry hears a scream of fury from Voldemort when he grabs the cup. This seems to indicate that Voldemort knew that it would transport Harry back to Hogwarts.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Cedric's didn't.

Good point!

Fudge blames Cedric’s death on Crouch, Jr.–the random work of a lone lunatic. And no one suggests that his wand be checked for prior spells to see if Crouch was the one that killed Cedric–which should have been done and should have raised suspicions. But we also see that Fudge is in such a state of denial that no evidence, or, I believe, lack thereof, is going to persuade him that Voldemort is back. From my pov, it’s pretty much a wash–whether Fudge had a body with evidence or not–he simply wasn’t going to believe the Dark Lord had returned.

That said, I can’t see how Voldemort would have relied on that being the case and to know to what extent Fudge would hold to his denials. Did he plan to return Harry’s body? The way I read the text, no. The way you read it, yes? At this point I think it might be possible to read the text both ways.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Sirius was present when Harry recounted everything that had happened from the moment he touched the portkey. I think that would have included the Priori Incantatem levitating them both.

Except that it is not included in the story at all. Harry stops talking after mentioning the wands connecting and Dumbledore prompts him through the rest of the story. Nothing is mentioned of the levitation. Further Dumbledore says that Priori Incantatem takes place when the owners of the wands force the wands to do battle. In the graveyard, the sequence of events are: the wands connect, the levitation occurs, Harry is told not to break the connection, the connection becomes harder to maintain, the beads appear, Harry has to force the beads toward the yew wand, out come the echos.

I maintain that Priori Incantatem didn’t start to occur until Harry consciously begins to maintain the connection. Therefore, the levitation is not part of the Priori Incantatem.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Cedric was able to ask Harry to return his body to Hogwarts. Frank knows that Voldemort killed him - even though he no longer looks like he did when he killed Frank. I think it possible that these shadows do know more than they knew at the time of their deaths.

Hey–that’s what Dumbledore said.

GoF: The Parting of the Ways "An echo," said Dumbledore, "which retained Cedric's appearance and character. I am guessing other such forms appeared...less recent victims of Voldemort's wand...."

I think the echos, like portraits, know what their owners knew up until the moment of their deaths.

GoF, Chapter 29 "Nagini," said the cold voice "you are out of luck. I will not be feeding Wormtail to you, after all...but never mind, never mind... there is still Harry Potter... " The snake hissed. Harry could see its tongue fluttering.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

"After all" indicates that Voldemort did promise Wormtail to Nagini before this. For Nagini, eating one human is probably much the same as eating any other. It seem she doesn't care as long as she has someone to eat.

Thanks for the reference! So you don’t take “...there is still Harry Potter...” as meaning Voldemort intended to destroy his body instead of returning it?

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Then how does he know where the Portkey is?

If he moved the combatants, he knows the distance from the origin, then it would be possible for him to calculate how long it would take Harry to return after giving “NOW” to start the countdown. Of course he would have to assume that the cup was at the origin.

Or he may have been able to pull the needed information from Harry’s mind through Fawkes’ connection.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Originally Posted by willfitz
Frankly, I think that Fawkes was included in the scene just to tie together the twin wands nicely.

Makes sense.

True. But Fawkes is nearly always on the perch in Dumbledore’s office. Yet here he is so overtly affectionate with Harry, it seems to me that there must be more to it. The only other time we see such interaction between Harry and Fawkes is when the bird saves him in the Chamber of Secrets. From a literary standpoint, that seems to me to tie the two incidents together as to level of importance.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

How can anyone say for certain that it is not an effect of Priori Incantatem?

Only JKR can. Hope she says something about it someday.

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Why not? The graveyard is the only example of two brother wands causing the Priori Incantatem effect. Therefore, I think the most straightforward explanation is that combative brother wands produce this effect. There is never any suggestion that Dumbledore did so.

Because of spell specificity in JKR’s magic. We don’t see other spells having multiple affects much outside of their incantation.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere
And there is no real reason for this to be an effect of Priori Incantatem either. In fact the odds that it isn’t holds closer to how magic works in JKR’s world.

No indeed, but then it isn't me who is suggesting that this is a problem. You brought up the issue as something which is unexplainable through any theories but your own; I am simply saying that it is not.

Oh, for the good old days...

Originally Posted by willfitz

I'm sorry but that really doesn't seem to be that concrete of a disproof. If you are going to try to dispel a theory at least give a reasonable explanation.

Is it possible that I’m getting trapped in my own mental constructs? Oh yes.

Further up this post I’ve detailed the explanation Dumbledore gives about Priori Incantatem occurring when the brother wands are forced to do battle. The forcing doesn’t seem to occur until the beads appear. The levitation is quite a bit previous. Does that tempt you into considering that the levitation could be a separate phenomena?

Originally Posted by willfitz

Well, here's what I see. You indicated in your previous post that this particular passage was unexplainable by any other theories because no theory explained who said it. Clearly, then, this is only an issue if we assume that someone did actually say it. That was how I interpreted your post, so I was pointing out that considering a different interpretation of the passage easily solved that issue.

Now, as for anything to explain it, I felt that the passage was indicating that Harry's connection with Voldemort's wand created this sort of agonizing battle between them, and also created the phoenix song, which comforted Harry. As such, the reassuring feeling which Harry got from the song was 'almost like' someone telling him that the connection would be positive for him. Sort of like seeing a light at the end of a long, dark tunnel, it told him to keep pressing onward because he related phoenix song with good things, just like we might relate light with freedom.

So you think in an instance of Priori Incantatem where the cores are, say, unicorn hair, the combatants would hear unicorns neighing (assuming they neigh like horses)? The phoenix song that Harry hears is coming from the tail feather cores and not Fawkes himself?

If Harry doesn’t actually hear the words “Don’t break the connection” in his mind, why does he answer in his thoughts?

Originally Posted by willfitz

mirrormere’s quote:
But if Voldemort knows Harry can escape using the cup, why doesn’t he prevent it? He has ample time to do so.

This is an important point to consider. I have considered that perhaps portkeys are not able to be physically moved without activating or deactivating them. And of course, if we consider that he wanted the cup available to take Harry back in mangled corpse form, then it makes sense that he didn't want to risk activating it or deactivating it, whichever the case may be.

Interesting thought. But Dumbledore seems to be able to move the one he made to take Harry back to his office in OotP. Voldemort could have just cast a Disillusionment Charm on it, yes?

Originally Posted by willfitz

Secondly, it may simply have been a case of not wanting to draw Harry's attention to his only possible escape.

Ditto Disillusionment Charm.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Thirdly, it may have been arrogance.

I think his arrogance was taken down a notch when his second use of AK on Harry had just failed (and failed spectacularly) in front of all his Death Eaters. I don’t think he would have forgotten that the cup was a Portkey–I think he just didn’t know.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Mirrormere, I do want to say that I think that your notion of the cup being a sort of innate portkey is a good one. I never considered it, but I feel like it fits much better with Crouch Jr.'s quotes under Veritaserum.

I think it quite a distinct possibility that the cup was a magical object. The WW seemed to use such in their sporting events, for which the tournament would qualify. Magical objects would seem better able to prevent cheating. And, as you say, it’s a better fit with Crouch, Jr.’s story.

It also explains to me why Voldemort would think it so important to his plans–that there was something particularly significant about the cup that would facilitate kidnaping Harry out of Hogwarts.

On the other hand, why make it so obscure? Does she just like jerking us around? I can see keeping the function of the cup under wraps up until surprising us with the Portkey to the graveyard, but why not clear it up later? Of course, from her perspective (working on the plotting for years) she may have thought she did make it clear but didn’t realize she had not.

That the precise workings of the cup and the apparent double Portkeys are so hazy possibly lends credence to Dumbledore’s involvement (my pov) with the Elder Wand–something she wanted to hide until the very end. If Dumbledore did make the cup a second Portkey from Hogwarts, that would truly be an incredibly powerful wand and she may have wanted to obscure that fact but at the same time include evidence that he was the master of it, instead of just springing it on us at the end and therefore coming off contrived. Of course if no one figures it out, she’s left with the same problem.

Originally Posted by canismajoris

Ah, thank you. So there are in fact two kinds of portkeys, even if we discount touch activation: Ones which are set to jump at a given time, and ones which can operate on a countdown at any time.

In GoF, the chapter appropriately called "The Portkey," Mr. Weasley specifically mentions the first manner: "They're objects that are used to transport wizards from one spot to another at a prearranged time."

However clearly this is not how Dumbledore created his Portkey--it's literally impossible.

There is no plausible way Dumbledore could have foreseen each of the delays and interruptions I listed and known the precise moment it would be opportune to have everyone gather around his desk. Plus, I should point out, he is counting up, not counting down, so that rather suggests that he was then and there telling the portkey when to go, not simply indicating when the portkey would go by itself.

What I'm saying is that the Portus spell obviously involves a greater degree of control than simply setting a timer and walking away. Having it activated by touch doesn't seem all that different from having it activated on a whim just by counting to three, or from setting it to travel at 9:38 AM GMT.

And I, of course, have a different take on the instance with what I’ll call the Weasley Portkey. Highly implausible? Yes. Completely impossible–I disagree (but with much respect, please note.)

I see this scene as evidence at just how exquisitely Dumbledore is tuned in to the passage of time (and therefore capable of making and timing the TWC Portkey out of the graveyard.) I think there is one and only one way that the Portus Charm works and it does so precisely as Mr. Weasley says it does–it transports wizards from one spot to another at a prearranged time. It is not out of the question that he could surmise that events would take, say, 10 minutes, and as time passed he paid closer attention to the actual time he set for the Portkey to activate. Doesn’t he have a clock in that office of his? After all, if he misses the deadline, what really happens? The kettle leaves and he makes a new one.

Counting up or counting down is still counting and I can’t see it having any bearing on the type of Portkey it might be, even though I obviously believe there is only one type. (However, I had previously surmised a voice-activated portkey but have discarded that theory as I think charms and spells have very specific functions and I think a single type of Portkey more elegant.)

The boot Portkey also gets counted down by Mr. Weasley as he looks at his watch, which frankly seems more an impossibility for me to believe he gets right than for Dumbledore to do so! (Yes, that's tongue in cheek.)

Forgot to mention that there are those have very acute senses of time. One fellow I knew could think about what time he wanted to wake up in the morning before he went to bed and viola! no alarm clock needed.

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

And I, of course, have a different take on the instance with what I’ll call the Weasley Portkey. Highly implausible? Yes. Completely impossible–I disagree (but with much respect, please note.)

I see this scene as evidence at just how exquisitely Dumbledore is tuned in to the passage of time (and therefore capable of making and timing the TWC Portkey out of the graveyard.) I think there is one and only one way that the Portus Charm works and it does so precisely as Mr. Weasley says it does–it transports wizards from one spot to another at a prearranged time. It is not out of the question that he could surmise that events would take, say, 10 minutes, and as time passed he paid closer attention to the actual time he set for the Portkey to activate. Doesn’t he have a clock in that office of his? After all, if he misses the deadline, what really happens? The kettle leaves and he makes a new one.

Counting up or counting down is still counting and I can’t see it having any bearing on the type of Portkey it might be, even though I obviously believe there is only one type. (However, I had previously surmised a voice-activated portkey but have discarded that theory as I think charms and spells have very specific functions and I think a single type of Portkey more elegant.)

The boot Portkey also gets counted down by Mr. Weasley as he looks at his watch, which frankly seems more an impossibility for me to believe he gets right than for Dumbledore to do so! (Yes, that's tongue in cheek.)

Forgot to mention that there are those have very acute senses of time. One fellow I knew could think about what time he wanted to wake up in the morning before he went to bed and viola! no alarm clock needed.

Yes, it is plausible that Dumbledore has a superior sense of the passage of time, but that isn't really what my point was.

What's implausible about it is that he could predict the events that occurred, not that he knew how long some arbitrary set of events would take. For him to have set a particular moment for the portkey jump, he would have had to know exactly what was going to happen between when he created it and when everyone was ready to use it. No absence of clocks can really explain that, I think.

I agree that missing the portkey wouldn't have especially serious consequences, but I think my analysis of the scene demonstrates that Dumbledore's pace changed from rather leisurely and almost comical to urgent and decisive. It could be that he knew the portkey was nearing its assigned time, but I find it more likely that the impending interruption of Umbridge was the only pressing concern, and that was why and when he decided to send the portkey.

ETA: Also, getting back to my original question: If you believe the Triwizard cup was also a timed portkey, how again did anyone know when it needed to work? As I hope you'll agree, being aware of the passage of time and having foreknowledge of events you can't control are two radically different abilities.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

In any case, it is practically impossible for anyone, regardless of brain power, to get the timings exactly right. There are simply too many variables, each of which would alter the timing. The best Dumbledore could do would be to have an upper and lower bound on the time it would take Harry to get to it.

I think he'd have to have a minimum lower bound-that the Portkey would activate sometime after Harry took hold of it. Of course, if JKR had shown this-a few moments of angst while Harry waited for the Portkey to activate-it would have cleared up a few questions. Because it appears to happen simultaneously means she either intended that coincidence (to purposely obscure what is really going on) or my theory is bust-I'm not beyond admitting that it might be. As it stands right now, I don't think it can be eliminated.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

If Dumbledore had no idea about Harry's location, why would he levitate the two to a different location ? He'd had to have had some sort of spatial awareness to be able to move them. He'd also need it to know the distance between Harry and cup if he was going to make calculations on how long it would take for Harry to reach the cup.

I believe that DD knew Harry and the cup was gone shortly after Snape informed him of Voldemort's return so that by the time the wands connected DD had a basic plan laid out. To turn the cup into another Portkey, he needed everyone away from it (it flashes blue and rattles when changing.) He would simply have to move the combatants in any direction for a certain distance

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Also, if Dumbledore was able to communicate to Harry using Fawkes, why just tell him the one line ?

I think he spoke to Harry through the echoes that emerged from LV's wand. That's how they knew the information about the Portkey.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

I think if Dumbledore had played a role in helping Harry in the graveyard, he would have told Harry about it. Also I believe Harry hears a scream of fury from Voldemort when he grabs the cup. This seems to indicate that Voldemort knew that it would transport Harry back to Hogwarts.

Unless revealing that knowledge might give away the fact that he was the master of the Elder Wand. Then he would keep that info quite close to the vest and let it seem as though there was a different explanation for what was going on (or no explanation at all.)

Originally Posted by canismajoris

Yes, it is plausible that Dumbledore has a superior sense of the passage of time, but that isn't really what my point was.

What's implausible about it is that he could predict the events that occurred, not that he knew how long some arbitrary set of events would take. For him to have set a particular moment for the portkey jump, he would have had to know exactly what was going to happen between when he created it and when everyone was ready to use it. No absence of clocks can really explain that, I think.

I don't think DD needed to predict the set of events as much as manage them during the countdown and which he seemed to do quite well. (and he does the same type of thing at the end of PoA with the timeturner scene.

Originally Posted by canismajoris

I agree that missing the portkey wouldn't have especially serious consequences, but I think my analysis of the scene demonstrates that Dumbledore's pace changed from rather leisurely and almost comical to urgent and decisive.

And thank you for that-it's a piece I didn't notice! This is why I enjoy posting with you all!

Originally Posted by canismajoris

It could be that he knew the portkey was nearing its assigned time, but I find it more likely that the impending interruption of Umbridge was the only pressing concern, and that was why and when he decided to send the portkey.

Umbridge was definitely a time constraint, but he could have fended her off in another manner-like changing the password.

ETA: Also, getting back to my original question: If you believe the Triwizard cup was also a timed portkey, how again did anyone know when it needed to work? As I hope you'll agree, being aware of the passage of time and having foreknowledge of events you can't control are two radically different abilities.[/quote]

I think the TWC was a magical object that was intended to take the first one who touched it before the panel of judges to be scored. Like modifying the Goblet of Fire, Crouch was able to add on a Portkey Charm and hijack the cup and those touching it to the graveyard. For the return trip DD turned it into a Portkey again and was able to coordinate Harry's use of it to take him back to the edge of the maze-right where DD was standing.

And yes, as far as I know awareness of the passing of time and the ability to predict future events sufficiently to affect them seem to be two very different abilities (given the same inertial frame of reference-haha.) But the shorter the span that has to be predicted, usually the more accurate the results.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I think he'd have to have a minimum lower bound-that the Portkey would activate sometime after Harry took hold of it. Of course, if JKR had shown this-a few moments of angst while Harry waited for the Portkey to activate-it would have cleared up a few questions. Because it appears to happen simultaneously means she either intended that coincidence (to purposely obscure what is really going on) or my theory is bust-I'm not beyond admitting that it might be. As it stands right now, I don't think it can be eliminated.

I believe that DD knew Harry and the cup was gone shortly after Snape informed him of Voldemort's return so that by the time the wands connected DD had a basic plan laid out. To turn the cup into another Portkey, he needed everyone away from it (it flashes blue and rattles when changing.) He would simply have to move the combatants in any direction for a certain distance

Essentially, you're saying that Dumbledore would have been relying on luck and coincidence to help Harry.

I think he spoke to Harry through the echoes that emerged from LV's wand. That's how they knew the information about the Portkey.

Why this complicated approach rather than telling Harry directly ?

Unless revealing that knowledge might give away the fact that he was the master of the Elder Wand. Then he would keep that info quite close to the vest and let it seem as though there was a different explanation for what was going on (or no explanation at all.)

Dumbledore could hide under his reputation of being an exceptional wizard. Harry was not going to question Dumbledore deeply on how he managed something like that.

Dumbledore doesn't tell him anything in King's Cross either where there was nothing left for him to hide.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Essentially, you're saying that Dumbledore would have been relying on luck and coincidence to help Harry.

So it seems to me. The major point is that if it was indeed true that Dumbledore had to set a precise time for the portkey, then hope that things would work out for the best, it would have been much, much, much more logical for Dumbledore to just hold off on enchanting the portkey until everyone was ready to go. So much more logical, in fact, that it renders the necessity of the portkey to be set for a precise time to be illogical, as far as I'm concerned.

Dumbledore doesn't tell him anything in King's Cross either where there was nothing left for him to hide.

I also think that King's Cross was meant to be surreal and enigmatic, and to blur the line between reality and imagination, so I think that it was by design that there were no major revelations in the chapter that Harry wasn't able to deduce on his own.

Originally Posted by mirrormere

I think the TWC was a magical object that was intended to take the first one who touched it before the panel of judges to be scored. Like modifying the Goblet of Fire, Crouch was able to add on a Portkey Charm and hijack the cup and those touching it to the graveyard. For the return trip DD turned it into a Portkey again and was able to coordinate Harry's use of it to take him back to the edge of the maze-right where DD was standing.

Hang on a mo'. If the cup is inherently a portkey of sorts, and will transport the winner to the audience, and if Crouch Jr. hijacked this by 'adding on' a preceding portkey enchantment, then why is it even necessary to have Dumbledore sending magic through some sort of tear in the space-time continuum at all? Surely it is simpler to just assume that the return trip was just the cup being the cup, and that either Voldemort didn't deem it prudent to interfere with it, whether or not he did plan on using it later.

Now, I realize that you made mention of the fact that you believe that there ought to have been work-arounds for dealing with the cup; however, I would invite you to consider that, if we are supposing that the cup is a magical object, certain types of magic may not be able to work on it. For example, we know that when a normal object becomes a Horcrux, it becomes impervious to nearly all forms of magical assault. Personally, I have always entertained the notion that this sort of property extends to other magical objects as well, and I think that it would be quite likely in the case of the Triwizard Cup, given its position as the final judge of the Triwizard champion, that it would be impervious to all manner of magic which could help a competitor cheat it out of an opponent's hands (such as conjuring or moving it magically, making it disappear or destroying it).

[Quickquill]

Originally Posted by Lady Elven

wow this is a head scratcher. I always thought portkeys by nature were 2-way. I mean only we've only seen one other use of a portkey and that was 2-way. Sadly the mechanics of it aren't explained. This would be a great question to ask JKR.

Actually, it wasn't. They took a different portkey back from the Quidditch World Cup, not the same one. It seems that portkeys can be made either one-way, or two way, and either timed or untimed. It's possible that Barty Crouch Jr. made it two way as a possible way of enabling Voldemort to come to Hogwarts at the completion of his plan despite all the safeguards set up to keep people like him out.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Essentially, you're saying that Dumbledore would have been relying on luck and coincidence to help Harry.

And that is different from the other books in what way?

Because Harry was selected as a Triwizard champion, Dumbledore suspected some evil plot was afoot and he kept watch. But he was not able to discern what that plot was until it happened. How do you plan against that? It’s not possible.

So this is what I think happened while Harry was in the graveyard: Snape tells Dumbledore that Voldemort is back; Dumbledore knows he has to find Harry, calls a halt to the tournament and discovers that Harry and the cup are gone. He realizes the cup must have been turned into a Portkey and that Voldemort has Harry. But where? How is Dumbledore going to find him? The adrenalin is pumping and Dumbledore is on high alert.

Suddenly Fawkes makes a telepathic connection with Dumbledore and links him with Harry. Dumbledore knows the link must have been made because the two phoenix cores have connected in battle. Through the link Dumbledore is able to move the combatants away from the cup. He is able to tell Harry not to break the connection–because he knows that forcing the brother wands to fight will produce Priori Incantatem and the echos coming forth might give Harry a few precious seconds to escape. When the James echo comes forward, Dumbledore casts the charm through the link to turn the cup into a Portkey again, and has the James echo: 1) tell Harry the Portkey will return him to Hogwarts and 2) tells him when to break the connection. Harry runs for the cup and Cedric’s body and off he goes.

Yes! Loads of conjecture! But just because we don’t see what is happening at Hogwarts doesn’t mean everyone is quietly sitting in the stands bored out of their gourds. This scenario could logically be occurring in the background and the timing matches with when Voldemort summons his Death Eater’s and the wands actually connect.

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Why this complicated approach rather than telling Harry directly ?

Do you mean like the previous voice? “Don’t break the connection?” I think it would be clearer coming from one of the echoes. And since the echoes actually do advise Harry in the story, why is it more complicated?

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Dumbledore could hide under his reputation of being an exceptional wizard. Harry was not going to question Dumbledore deeply on how he managed something like that.

Dumbledore may also have considered it boasting (which he says in King’s Cross he was not permitted to do as master of the Elder Wand–that’s statement that needs more research.)

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Dumbledore doesn't tell him anything in King's Cross either where there was nothing left for him to hide.

They touch on the fact that Voldemort took Harry’s blood to reincarnate, but I think stopping here to go back and explain the details of that night would have slowed the narrative quite a bit and it was a bit bulky to begin with. And apparently there was no need. Had anyone questioned what was going on at that point? Nope. We all just lapped it up and were waiting for the next book.

Originally Posted by willfitz

So it seems to me. The major point is that if it was indeed true that Dumbledore had to set a precise time for the portkey, then hope that things would work out for the best, it would have been much, much, much more logical for Dumbledore to just hold off on enchanting the portkey until everyone was ready to go. So much more logical, in fact, that it renders the necessity of the portkey to be set for a precise time to be illogical, as far as I'm concerned.

I think Dumbledore waited for as long as possible but 1) he didn’t want Voldemort or the Death Eater’s to see the cup flash blue, figure out what was happening and then prevent Harry from using the Portkey–that was the whole point in moving them away from the cup; 2) the nature of the Charm is to have a prearranged time, though, admittedly, that can be seconds; and 3) as soon as the connection between the wands was broken Dumbledore would no longer be able to cast the Charm.

Originally Posted by willfitz

I also think that King's Cross was meant to be surreal and enigmatic, and to blur the line between reality and imagination, so I think that it was by design that there were no major revelations in the chapter that Harry wasn't able to deduce on his own.

For the most part, yes. But I think there is one major revelation–or rather a remark indicating some stunning information that has not yet been discussed. It concerns the Elder Wand. There’s a bit of research I’ve been working on and hopefully it will be done in a few weeks. Hint: Dumbledore’s comment about being permitted to tame and use the Elder Wand.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Hang on a mo'. If the cup is inherently a portkey of sorts, and will transport the winner to the audience, and if Crouch Jr. hijacked this by 'adding on' a preceding portkey enchantment, then why is it even necessary to have Dumbledore sending magic through some sort of tear in the space-time continuum at all? Surely it is simpler to just assume that the return trip was just the cup being the cup, and that either Voldemort didn't deem it prudent to interfere with it, whether or not he did plan on using it later.

Or didn’t realize it still functioned–and I thought that would be easier also. However, James tells Harry that the Portkey will return him to Hogwarts. If he had said “the cup will return you to Hogwarts” I would have called it good and my theory would state that once Harry touched the cup, it finished it’s intended purpose and took Harry to the judges panel as originally programmed. I’ve found JKR to be very precise in her wording, especially at crucial moments. Also, she seems to use the Goblet of Fire as a type for the Triwizard Cup. For the Goblet, once it executed its duty it deactivated until the next tournament. Symmetry of a sort. Further–having Dumbledore cast the Portus Charm through the connection explains the levitation at the beginning of the scene. I mean, really, why have such an odd addition as levitating the combatants away from the headstone (as a product of Priori Incantatem or not)? Why can’t they just fight where they are? Why can’t Harry make a break for it, Voldemort chases him and they end up fighting in an area away from the cup? Why insert such an odd piece of the story unless it is there for some reason?

Originally Posted by willfitz

Now, I realize that you made mention of the fact that you believe that there ought to have been work-arounds for dealing with the cup; however, I would invite you to consider that, if we are supposing that the cup is a magical object, certain types of magic may not be able to work on it. For example, we know that when a normal object becomes a Horcrux, it becomes impervious to nearly all forms of magical assault. Personally, I have always entertained the notion that this sort of property extends to other magical objects as well, and I think that it would be quite likely in the case of the Triwizard Cup, given its position as the final judge of the Triwizard champion, that it would be impervious to all manner of magic which could help a competitor cheat it out of an opponent's hands (such as conjuring or moving it magically, making it disappear or destroying it).

You are quite right, though I have to mention that a horrific curse was added to the horcrux ring.

And JKR explains how that could happen through the example of the Goblet of Fire:

GoF: The Four Champions "Because they hoodwinked a very powerful magical object!" said Moody. "It would have needed an exceptionally strong Confundus Charm to bamboozle that goblet into forgetting that only three schools compete in the tournament....I'm guessing they submitted Potter's name under a fourth school, to make sure he was the only one in his category...."

Hard to do, but apparently not impossible. Crouch was able to “bamboozle” the Goblet, a very powerful magical object. I think he did the same to the Triwizard cup, adding a Portkey Charm to it’s original function.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

You are quite right, though I have to mention that a horrific curse was added to the horcrux ring.

And JKR explains how that could happen through the example of the Goblet of Fire:

Hard to do, but apparently not impossible. Crouch was able to “bamboozle” the Goblet, a very powerful magical object. I think he did the same to the Triwizard cup, adding a Portkey Charm to it’s original function.

Oh, sure, I'm not suggesting that all magical objects are immune to all forms of magic, but that it is possible for magical objects to be resistant or immune to certain types of magic.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Oh, sure, I'm not suggesting that all magical objects are immune to all forms of magic, but that it is possible for magical objects to be resistant or immune to certain types of magic.

Agreed. And that's why I think they were particularly used in sports--to prevent cheating. As much as possible.

[voldyisnoseless]

maybe voldemort made the cup a portkey to hogwarts after harry was sent to the graveyard

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

And that is different from the other books in what way?

Dumbledore was not actively involved in them. However, whenever he has been made aware of the situation, he has always attempted to personally take charge of the situation and not leave things to chance.

Because Harry was selected as a Triwizard champion, Dumbledore suspected some evil plot was afoot and he kept watch. But he was not able to discern what that plot was until it happened. How do you plan against that? It’s not possible.

I believe everyone thought that the plot was to get Harry "accidentally" killed during the tournament.

So this is what I think happened while Harry was in the graveyard: Snape tells Dumbledore that Voldemort is back; Dumbledore knows he has to find Harry, calls a halt to the tournament and discovers that Harry and the cup are gone. He realizes the cup must have been turned into a Portkey and that Voldemort has Harry. But where? How is Dumbledore going to find him? The adrenalin is pumping and Dumbledore is on high alert.

I don't think Dumbledore called a halt to the tournament but I agree he would have been on the alert.

Suddenly Fawkes makes a telepathic connection with Dumbledore and links him with Harry. Dumbledore knows the link must have been made because the two phoenix cores have connected in battle. Through the link Dumbledore is able to move the combatants away from the cup. He is able to tell Harry not to break the connection–because he knows that forcing the brother wands to fight will produce Priori Incantatem and the echos coming forth might give Harry a few precious seconds to escape. When the James echo comes forward, Dumbledore casts the charm through the link to turn the cup into a Portkey again, and has the James echo: 1) tell Harry the Portkey will return him to Hogwarts and 2) tells him when to break the connection. Harry runs for the cup and Cedric’s body and off he goes.

If your theory on the link is correct, Dumbledore at this point knows that Harry and Voldemort are connected via the wands in battle. He has no idea where they are though. It could have been in Malfoy Manor in which case, he'd have moved them straight into a wall. Maybe they were near a water body and he'd have dumped them into the water. There could have been a tree nearby for all he knew. Dumbledore is essentially driving blind here. This is important because a disturbance would have broken the connection. It was not simply a matter of causing some discomfort to Harry and Voldemort. I don't think Dumbledore would have taken a chance like that.

Yes! Loads of conjecture! But just because we don’t see what is happening at Hogwarts doesn’t mean everyone is quietly sitting in the stands bored out of their gourds. This scenario could logically be occurring in the background and the timing matches with when Voldemort summons his Death Eater’s and the wands actually connect.

As you say, there are a lot of assumptions made here. Generally as theories go, I tend to apply Occam's Razor and pick the simplest one.

Do you mean like the previous voice? “Don’t break the connection?” I think it would be clearer coming from one of the echoes. And since the echoes actually do advise Harry in the story, why is it more complicated?

I think Harry would have felt better if he knew that Dumbledore was aware of the situation and trying to help him. At this point, Harry believes he is going to die, has had a wierd thing happen with his wand and has seen ghost like creatures appearing. The phoenix song gave him hope because he connected it to Dumbledore. How much better he would have felt if Dumbledore actually spoke to him. Additionally, if Dumbledore could communicate with Harry, I think he would tried to find out as much information as possible about Harry's situation before making any plans.

Dumbledore may also have considered it boasting (which he says in King’s Cross he was not permitted to do as master of the Elder Wand–that’s statement that needs more research.)

He would have been stating fact here, I don't see where boasting comes. Also, I think what he meant by not boasting was that he couldn't brag about possessing it. Simply put, IMO Dumbledore was a worthy possessor of the Wand because he took it for the right reasons and not because he agreed to some set of terms and conditions.

They touch on the fact that Voldemort took Harry’s blood to reincarnate, but I think stopping here to go back and explain the details of that night would have slowed the narrative quite a bit and it was a bit bulky to begin with. And apparently there was no need. Had anyone questioned what was going on at that point? Nope. We all just lapped it up and were waiting for the next book.

I didn't question it because it made sense to me. The Cup was already supposed to transport Harry out of the maze. Crouch ended up putting a spell on top of it that took Harry to the graveyard instead. As Dumbledore says, it was a rare effect that took place when the two brother wands met. So Harry wand overpowers Voldemort's, the echoes turn up and tell him to grab the portkey that would get him out of there. Harry doesn't even think of that possibility and I doubt he would have guessed it on his own.

[njefros92]

Well when Harry popped out of the maze and landed in front of the crowd who all started cheering until they saw Cedric dead, so it seems they expected the winner to be transported out of the maze. So that supports the theory that Dumbledore did set it to be a portkey.