The Black Family Dynamics Revisited

[MasterOfDeath]

I think the Hogwarts headmistress and headmaster portraits would have been somehow of more powerful and advanced magic than ordinary wizarding portraits. For one, nobody has to actually paint them, they immediately are formed once a headmistress or headmaster dies and judging by the text they seem significantly more sophisticated than ordinary magical portraits. Hogwarts was created by the four most powerful and talented and intelligent witches and wizards of a thousand years previous and their combined talent and power imbued Hogwarts with ancient magical power unheard of elsewhere. I don't think it would be beyond the realm of possibility in canon to suggest the Headmistress and Headmaster Hogwarts portraits were simply more elaborate and retained even more of the subject's identity than the portrait say in the Black House or even the other portraits in Hogwarts like the fat lady.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

I think the Hogwarts headmistress and headmaster portraits would have been somehow of more powerful and advanced magic than ordinary wizarding portraits. For one, nobody has to actually paint them, they immediately are formed once a headmistress or headmaster dies and judging by the text they seem significantly more sophisticated than ordinary magical portraits. Hogwarts was created by the four most powerful and talented and intelligent witches and wizards of a thousand years previous and their combined talent and power imbued Hogwarts with ancient magical power unheard of elsewhere. I don't think it would be beyond the realm of possibility in canon to suggest the Headmistress and Headmaster Hogwarts portraits were simply more elaborate and retained even more of the subject's identity than the portrait say in the Black House or even the other portraits in Hogwarts like the fat lady.

So when Phineas returns to his portrait at Grimmauld Place, his abilities degrade?

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

So when Phineas returns to his portrait at Grimmauld Place, his abilities degrade?

That's a good point. Perhaps not, maybe it's different if it's connected to a headmaster portrait. Not sure.

[kittling]

Or prehaps 'visiting' a different frame doesn't change you - a bit like walking into a different house doesn't change you?

[MasterOfDeath]

Originally Posted by kittling

Or prehaps 'visiting' a different frame doesn't change you - a bit like walking into a different house doesn't change you?

It's also possible only the unique Hogwarts portraits (and Ministry portraits) can visit paintings of themselves in completely different buildings?

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

It's also possible only the unique Hogwarts portraits (and Ministry portraits) can visit paintings of themselves in completely different buildings?

It's mentioned in OotP that those who have two portraits can go between both. It's not mentioned as being limited to Heads of Hogwarts and Ministry officials, although those we do see are Phineas, Dilys at Hogwarts and St. Mungo's, and probably the portrait in the Prime Minister's office.

Unless ... does Ariana have a portrait of some kind in the Room of Requirement to allow her to travel between her portrait at the Hog's Head and Hogwarts?

[SusanBones]

Last time I looked, this thread was about the Black Family Dynamics, not about portraits.

Originally Posted by Moriath

The Black family is very interesting as its family members are neither all good nor all bad but very complex. Characters like Sirius and Andromeda rebelled against the family and chose their friends and love over their relatives. Others like Bella and Walburga are very powerful but dark and nearly psychotic characters.

We used to have a thread about the Black family dynamics and the discussion was very animated. The Blacks polarise. The following questions are only a selection of what was and can be discussed.

• What was the relationship between Sirius and Regulus like?
• What are the dynamics between the Black sisters? Is Andromeda still in touch with her pure-blood relatives?
• Did Narcissa and Bella marry their husbands for love or were their marriages arranged?
• Was Andromeda in Slytherin? Was her daughter?
• Why exactly did Sirius leave his family at sixteen?
• Did Regulus ask his brother for help before he died?
• Is Narcissa the good girl because her older sisters chose very radical paths?
• Is Grimmauld Place the only Black property and why was it called Mrs Black's house?
• Why do the Black sisters have either no children or only one child? Is it genetic?
• Was uncle Alphard blasted off the tree before or after he left Sirius some money?

These are only some of the questions that could be asked about the Black family. Since we have the Black family tree we are enabled to have a closer look at Sirius' and Regulus' parents too. It's also interesting that a few generation back, the Black men married very young, aged fourteen or younger! Thus there is a lot to discuss and I'm looking forward to seeing the discussion revived.

The original thread can be found here. Version two was deleted so maybe a staff member could fix the link.

Can we get back to the topic of this thread?

[ignisia]

What was the relationship between Sirius and Regulus like?
What are the dynamics between the Black sisters? Is Andromeda still in touch with her pure-blood relatives?

I do wonder a lot about these questions especially. I'm pretty sure that both Sirius and Andromeda had very little contact with their relatives after they went their own ways, but I wonder if they felt any residual fondness for their family/siblings. Sirius, for one, seems to consider his brother an idiot, but nothing much worse than that. Was it because he, according to Sirius, didn't have the inclination to do any serious crimes, or was he still somewhat fond of his little brother? Both?

[horcrux4]

I doubt Andromeda would have had much to do with her sisters after she married Ted, although they did seem to know she had a daughter. She and Bellatrix were at opposite poles in the wizarding world and Bella speaks of the Tonkses later with disgust. Narcissa seems (well, is) less extreme, but her passion for pure blood would probably make her too refuse to have anything further to do with Andromeda. We don't see any evidence that Andromeda tried to be reconciled to her family.

As for Sirius and Regulus, they don't seem to have had any contact either after Sirius left, do they? Although Sirius took some interest in what his little brother was up to, but that may have just been keeping an eye on the enemy?

[BrianTung]

Originally Posted by horcrux4

I doubt Andromeda would have had much to do with her sisters after she married Ted, although they did seem to know she had a daughter. She and Bellatrix were at opposite poles in the wizarding world and Bella speaks of the Tonkses later with disgust. Narcissa seems (well, is) less extreme, but her passion for pure blood would probably make her too refuse to have anything further to do with Andromeda. We don't see any evidence that Andromeda tried to be reconciled to her family.

As for Sirius and Regulus, they don't seem to have had any contact either after Sirius left, do they? Although Sirius took some interest in what his little brother was up to, but that may have just been keeping an eye on the enemy?

It's pure speculation, but I tend to think that he simply did it out of some regard for their past, and perhaps some latent hope that Regulus would see the light. He did, obviously, but Sirius never found out about it.

I don't think Narcissa was passionate specifically about blood purity so much as she enjoyed the prestige it conferred. I think, for her, it was more about status than ideology--a position she likely shared with her husband.

[AccioDoubleStuf]

Sirius and Regulus: I would think that, when they were younger at least, they got along well. I mean, most brothers start drifting apart for a reason. I think that reason was, Sirius decided to see sense. That all that pure-blood **** and all that Dark stuff was total bull. He saw it and so did Andromeda, so they started defying the ways of the Black family and that's what set them on that steady drift away from their respective siblings. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Sirius grew up in an abusive home (verbal or physical). Even if he did or didn't, his parents still hated him. I really don't want to believe Regulus agreed with a lot of that stuff Walburga spouts out, but I know he did to some degree. I know that he became obsessed with Voldemort and had article and newspaper clippings about him in his room and under his bed and stuff. He became a DE and found it not what he thought it would be and wanted to back out. But then he found out about Horcruxes and got himself killed, in the process trick Moldyshorts.

Andy, Bella and Cissa: Andromeda is my favorite Black sister (she gave us Tonks, lol). I think when they were younger they her and Bella got along fairly well. Bella is the eldest daughter, then Andy and the youngest is Cissa. I think their relationship became sort of strained when Cissa was born. All the things they used to be able to do together, they couldn't do now without including Cissa. As they got older, I like to think Andy found that the idealism's of her family were sick and horrible and unfair, so she started rebel against them. Bella on the other hand, I can see starting to turn into a rotten girl, who got a thrill from seeing people in pain and hearing people beg for mercy and all that sick and twisted stuff. That deterioration of her mind only helped reinforce those teachings and bring them back with a vengeance. Because of this, Andy fought a lot with her elder sister and parents. And poor little Cissa, in the middle of all of it, not wanting to choose between her younger cousin and sister and the rest of her family. I imagine she had a good relationship with Andy and Sirius for maybe the single fact they made people laugh. She needed laughter, so she got it from them. Soon, though Andy met Ted and they fell in love. She didn't tell anyone except Cissa and Sirius, because Ted was Muggleborn. But, I bet she and Sirius probably decided around the same time, maybe even together that enough was enough and fled from their respect families; Andy to Ted and Sirius to James. After they left they both became happier. I seriously doubt she ever made contact with Bella ever again but I bet she Owl'ed Cissa.

Marrige of Bella and Cissa: This is hard for me to think about, not with Bella but with Cissa. With Bella, I think her marrige to Rodolphus was obviously arranged as she [i]obviously[i] doesn't love him. It just doesn't seem like love to me. Now Cissa's marrige to Lucius, can go either way. IMO though, I like to think Cissa had a crush on Lucius during their days at Hogwarts together, maybe they dated, who knows, and what do you know, they actually have an arranged marriage set up for them and they like each other. I like to think something nice like that happened to them, considering all the **** they go through later on.....

Andy in Slytherin: Like I said before, Andy is my favorite of the Black sisters. I think she probably was in Slytherin and she liked it there. She just didn't like the ideals of all the other purebloods. She would have been friends with people outside her house, like Sirius (though I believe she was in her later years when he was in First). I keep forgetting if Ted was a Muggle or a Muggle-born wizard? Well, either way, it already said Dora (Nymphadora Tonks) was a Hufflepuff, so nope her daughter is not a Slytherin.

Sirius Leaving: I love Sirius and I'm still in denial he's dead, though I know he is. Sirius, IMO, left because he had had enough of his family putting him down, being horrible and maybe (verbally and/or physically IDK) abuse. Now, I don't know what age Regulus joined the DE's but I know it said he joined young. Sirius is two years older than Regulus, so Regulus was fourteen when Sirius left. I know he didn't join at fourteen because died at eighteen. But, I like to think that Sirius really always cared for his little brother and wanted and wished for him to see things in the he sees things, so he doesn't get hurt. IMO, the knowledge that Regulus was obsessed with LV and becoming a DE on top of his mother being a cow and possible abuse, he ran away because it was too much. He didn't want to ever be near his mother again and he didn't want to face the fact that his baby brother wanted to join forces with a crazy mass murderer.

Regulus Before Death: I seriously doubt Regulus asked anyone for help with hunting down that Horcrux. The only help he brought was Kreacher. I can picture Regulus, eighteen; terrified but determined to do the right thing, about to set off for the cave. I would think asking for help from Sirius crossed his mind, but many things could have entered his brain preventing him from acting on it: 1. He didn't want to see Sirius after all this time. He probably felt betrayed that his older brother left him alone in an intimidating and frighting environment. 2. He didn't want Sirius to risk death for him. Even if they grew apart the more Sirius strayed from the family and the more Regulus became obsessed with LV, but they're still brothers. So no, I think the thought crossed his mind, but had a couple different reasons to not go through with them.

Good Girl Cissa: This answer depends on what and how you define good and bad; also if you believe in "the ends justify the means". Now, Cissa is by no means a nice woman. That is shown in HBP, when at Madam Malkins she says something along the lines of "Come Draco, I did not no filth shopped at this store" or something along those lines. Between the three of them though, she's defiantly made the least radical decisions. But, no Cissa is not the "good girl". She might have used to be, but now that she's an adult, no.

Grimmauld Place: I don't think Grimmauld Place is the only Black property, not with how rich the Blacks are. I think they have multiple properties that are either abandoned or are being occupied by other rich families that maybe bought they bought from the Black family. I'm pretty sure it refers to Grimmauld Place as Mrs. Black's house because, I'm pretty sure that's the house that Walburga and Orion raised Sirius and Regulus.

Black Sisters and Children: It maybe genetic, though I don't think it is. I think they all had their reasons for the number of children (or lack there of) they have. I imagine that Bella probably doesn't like children much, so she wouldn't have one with Rodolphus. She might have one if they had a chance of becoming evil and nasty, like it's mother. But I really don't see Bella as a mothering type person (her fight with Molly proves this). I don't see Lucius as the type to want more than one child, so I imagine Draco is an only child because of him. I sometimes entertain the idea of Cissa having problems with Draco's birth, so that she couldn't have any more children. Andy I see as only wanting one child with Ted, so she could focus on showering only one child with love and affection, the kind she only got the first eleven or twelve years of her life.

Uncle Alphard: I think it said in OoTP, when they were cleaning the drawing room (I think), Harry found the Family Tree and asked about it and Sirius told the story of his family. He told him that his Uncle Alphard got blasted off the Tree for sending Sirius money after he ran away from home. So, after.

Sorry this is so long. I type like I talk; I get on one subject and then I ramble about things relating to that subject, then get back to the point.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by AccioDoubleStuf

Sirius and Regulus: I would think that, when they were younger at least, they got along well. I mean, most brothers start drifting apart for a reason. I think that reason was, Sirius decided to see sense. That all that pure-blood **** and all that Dark stuff was total bull. He saw it and so did Andromeda, so they started defying the ways of the Black family and that's what set them on that steady drift away from their respective siblings.

I like to think that Andromeda's defection and marriage to Ted Tonks was an influence on Sirius for the better. He says that Andromeda was his favourite cousin. (Not that she had great competition. ) Perhaps seeing his favourite cousin disowned led to him questioning their values. Or strengthened his resolve to do so.

I really don't want to believe Regulus agreed with a lot of that stuff Walburga spouts out, but I know he did to some degree. I know that he became obsessed with Voldemort and had article and newspaper clippings about him in his room and under his bed and stuff. He became a DE and found it not what he thought it would be and wanted to back out. But then he found out about Horcruxes and got himself killed, in the process trick Moldyshorts.

I think Regulus already believed in the pure-blood nonsense before Sirius left. It was part of why Sirius left - "his idiot brother, foolish enough to believe them". However, I think that after Sirius was sorted into Gryffindor, befriended a blood traitor like James Potter, and incurred the anger of his parents, Regulus became more determined to be the model son for them - perfect prejudiced pureblood they wanted him to be. I think he

Soon, though Andy met Ted and they fell in love. She didn't tell anyone except Cissa and Sirius, because Ted was Muggleborn. But, I bet she and Sirius probably decided around the same time, maybe even together that enough was enough and fled from their respect families; Andy to Ted and Sirius to James. After they left they both became happier. I seriously doubt she ever made contact with Bella ever again but I bet she Owl'ed Cissa.

I doubt if Andromeda would have taken Sirius into her confidence about her relationship with Ted - Sirius was several years younger than her. Tonks was only about ten-twelve years younger than Sirius, so Andromeda would have been at least eight years older than Sirius, I imagine. She might have been the older cousin who was nice to the younger kids when other older relatives considered them beneath their notice.

Marrige of Bella and Cissa: This is hard for me to think about, not with Bella but with Cissa. With Bella, I think her marrige to Rodolphus was obviously arranged as she [i]obviously[i] doesn't love him.

I don't know about arranged in the sense of her partner being chosen for her by her family. However, I do think it was a marriage of convenience - Bellatrix chose a man from a "respectable" pure-blood family, from her perspective. For her, it was a duty to marry a pureblood and produce the next generation of prejudiced purebloods. Perhaps Rodolphus had the same idea.

Andy in Slytherin: Like I said before, Andy is my favorite of the Black sisters. I think she probably was in Slytherin and she liked it there. She just didn't like the ideals of all the other purebloods. She would have been friends with people outside her house, like Sirius (though I believe she was in her later years when he was in First). I keep forgetting if Ted was a Muggle or a Muggle-born wizard? Well, either way, it already said Dora (Nymphadora Tonks) was a Hufflepuff, so nope her daughter is not a Slytherin.

Ted Tonks was Muggleborn, he fixed Harry's broken teeth with magic in DH after the crash landing of the motorcycle. He and Andromeda probably met at Hogwarts. I think Andromeda began to open her mind and listen to opinions other than those of her family while at Hogwarts.

Good Girl Cissa: This answer depends on what and how you define good and bad; also if you believe in "the ends justify the means". Now, Cissa is by no means a nice woman. That is shown in HBP, when at Madam Malkins she says something along the lines of "Come Draco, I did not no filth shopped at this store" or something along those lines. Between the three of them though, she's defiantly made the least radical decisions. But, no Cissa is not the "good girl". She might have used to be, but now that she's an adult, no.

Well, she was the "good girl" who did what her family expected - marry and produce a pureblood child. She held to the rabid bigotry of her family.

Black Sisters and Children: It maybe genetic, though I don't think it is. I think they all had their reasons for the number of children (or lack there of) they have. I imagine that Bella probably doesn't like children much, so she wouldn't have one with Rodolphus. She might have one if they had a chance of becoming evil and nasty, like it's mother. But I really don't see Bella as a mothering type person (her fight with Molly proves this).

I think that if Bella had not been imprisoned, she would have had children with Rodolphus. She is not in the least bit nurturing or maternal and would not have been a loving or caring parent. She said that if she had children, she would have been honoured to give them to Voldemort, which suggests she would have had children if she had not been in Azkaban. She likely would have considered it her duty to produce the next generation of pureblood witches and wizards, given her fanatical bigotry and obsession with blood. Plus, she would have considered it her duty to provide the next generation of servants for her immortal master.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

I think that if Bella had not been imprisoned, she would have had children with Rodolphus. She is not in the least bit nurturing or maternal and would not have been a loving or caring parent. She said that if she had children, she would have been honoured to give them to Voldemort, which suggests she would have had children if she had not been in Azkaban. She likely would have considered it her duty to produce the next generation of pureblood witches and wizards, given her fanatical bigotry and obsession with blood. Plus, she would have considered it her duty to provide the next generation of servants for her immortal master.

I'm not sure about this actually. She was already in her 30s when she entered Azkaban which means that she would have had at least 5 years to conceive, assuming she married in her mid 20s and not earlier (which is also a possibility, in which case she would have had 10 years). If you want to have children you usually don't wait that long after you marry. I think it was her choice not to conceive thinking it would interfere with her serving Voldemort--or simply because as you say she wasn't maternal.

Narcissa also has only one child so I don't know how much the purebloods considered it their duty to "breed" and produce the next generation of purebloods. Only the Weasleys seem to have answered that call

[asdfasdf17]

• What was the relationship between Sirius and Regulus like?
  
  They got along when they were younger but after Hogwarts they drifted apart. They probably argued/fought at home but at school I'm guessing they ignored each other (they had their own friends plus Gryffindors and Slytherins don't like to mix). Sirius may have been jealous of Regulus for being the favorite son and Regulus may have felt overshadowed by Sirius being the heir and all. There was probably resentment and anger in their relationship although I'm not sure they outright hated each other. I figure that when Sirius left they never had any contact again.
  
  
• What are the dynamics between the Black sisters? Is Andromeda still in touch with her pure-blood relatives?
  
  Bella and Cissy seem to get along relatively well and it definitely seems they care for each other. I think that with Bella being so radical and sociapath-like that she and Cissy would disagree/argue over certain things but it wouldn't strain their relationship. I'm sure that when they were younger all three sisters got along fine but after Andromeda married Ted, Bella and Cissy lost all contact with her and hated her (Bella especially ). I doubt Andromeda tried to contact them, she probably hated them too and felt ashamed of her family.
  
  
• Did Narcissa and Bella marry their husbands for love or were their marriages arranged?
  
  I doubt either Cissy or Bella's marriages were arranged. Bella doesn't seem the type to sit around while her parents set up a match for her. At the same time, I hardly think Bella married for love. The Lestranges were pureblood, which was good enough for her, and they had an eligible son, so the two married. I think the same could be said for Cissy, she was attracted to Lucius's blood-purity, his wealth and his status in society. Although there may have been some romantic feelings involved too.
  
  
• Was Andromeda in Slytherin? Was her daughter?
  
  Yes I think Andromeda was in Slytherin because Slughorn says all the Black's, except Sirius, were in Slytherin. It's possible Tonks was in Slytherin but she may not have been. If Tonks went to Hogwarts around the time Slughorn still taught there, and she wasn't in Slytherin, its possible that Slughorn didn't consider her a Black (seeing as she had a different surname) so he didn't include her when he said all the Black's were in Slytherin.
  
  
• Why exactly did Sirius leave his family at sixteen?
  
  He was sick of their pureblood mania, as he called it. I don't think it was a single, significant event that triggered his decision. At the same time, I don't think he consciously planned on leaving the household at 16; he probably just got into another fight with his parents and acted impulsively and just left.
  
  
• Did Regulus ask his brother for help before he died?
  
  No, there is no indication that he did and I don't think he would have. Like I said, I believe he lost all contact with Sirius after Sirius left.
  
  
• Is Grimmauld Place the only Black property and why was it called Mrs Black's house?
  
  I doubt its the only Black family property (I can't imagine an extensive family living there, even if it does house a lot of people. Also, I feel Sirius would have mentioned it if he were living with his cousins when he lived at Grimmauld place) but I do think it is thee Black family property. I think its called Mrs.Black's house simply because she lived there and she exercised more authority than her husband. I don't think it being called Mrs. Black's house points to anything significant about the inheritance of the house.
  
  
• Why do the Black sisters have either no children or only one child? Is it genetic?
  
  It was there choice to have children. Bella doesn't really seem the type to care for kids; I think she only married because it was considered proper for her. Cissy and Andromeda probably just wanted one child.
  

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by Sereena

I'm not sure about this actually. She was already in her 30s when she entered Azkaban which means that she would have had at least 5 years to conceive, assuming she married in her mid 20s and not earlier (which is also a possibility, in which case she would have had 10 years). If you want to have children you usually don't wait that long after you marry. I think it was her choice not to conceive thinking it would interfere with her serving Voldemort--or simply because as you say she wasn't maternal.

Bellatrix married because she considered it her "duty". I think she would also consider it her duty to produce children. Why would she consider marriage a duty but not producing children? Especially when she was married to a pureblood and she was among the bigots who bemoaned the dwindling pureblood population? She may have been waiting until her precious Dark Lord was more secure in his power. Or, she may have been unable to have children. Not being maternal wouldn't have stopped Bellatrix from producing Voldemort's next generation of servants. It's not as if she would have needed to have any contact with the child if she didn't want to.

Narcissa also has only one child so I don't know how much the purebloods considered it their duty to "breed" and produce the next generation of purebloods. Only the Weasleys seem to have answered that call

The Weasleys were not rabid bigots in insisting on only marrying purebloods as the Black family were. The DEs and their supporters did seem to see it as their duty to carry on their pureblood lines - one child is enough to carry on the line. The Weasleys didn't instill fanatic twisted bigotry in their children. The fanatic purebloods limited themselves to other so-called "nature's nobility" to keep their lines pure - so I stand by my view that they wanted to breed the next generation of purebloods.

Originally Posted by asdfasdf17

I doubt Andromeda tried to contact them, she probably hated them too and felt ashamed of her family.

And concerned for her safety and that of her true family, Ted and Dora. She couldn't trust people like the majority of the Black family.

He was sick of their pureblood mania, as he called it. I don't think it was a single, significant event that triggered his decision. At the same time, I don't think he consciously planned on leaving the household at 16; he probably just got into another fight with his parents and acted impulsively and just left.

I can see it happening like that. I can imagine years of arguments and resentment and disgust at their bigotry building up and resulting in Sirius just snapping and walking out on some occasion. Much like Harry's departure from the Dursleys' house in PoA, except that Sirius did not return to his family.

[lucky charms]

This is purely my own speculation, but I disagree with the idea that Sirius and Regulus probably got along when they were younger, and then drifted apart at Hogwarts. I imagine their dynamic to be similar to mine and my younger sister's: I was a naturally rebellious child who was always butting heads with my strict parents, and my sister, who happened not to have this streak, would always be pointed to as the example of how I should behave ("Your sister never gives us this much trouble! Why can't you be more like her?") My sister eventually learned that pleasing our parents and going along with her characterization as the "favorite golden child" was the only way to compete with all the attention I was getting, so she ran away with this developed her identity around it. Our different ways of getting attention (whether wanted or unwanted) from our parents was a source of constant friction between us.

I think this is a realistic model to explain the relationship between Sirius and Regulus, as well. It explains why Regulus might have been a bit overzealous in supporting his parents' beliefs, and also why Sirius was able to see his family's bigotry for what it was despite being raised within that worldview, when hardly anyone else in his family was able to see it (I find it much more believable that Sirius's break with his family's views was a result of a natural rebellious streak - he probably just wanted to say whatever would **** them off the most at first - than that he was able to one day reach an epiphany through his own careful insight that everything he was ever taught about the world was wrong.)

If this portrayal of their relationship is accurate, then I believe that even though Sirius detested Regulus for being a suck-up who was always eager to curry favor with his parents, Regulus didn't necessarily harbor such animosity toward his older brother. He may have respected and loved Sirius, while being at the same time frustrated by his stubborn self-assertiveness. His exposure to Sirius's ideas - which he would of course have utterly rejected at the time - may have planted a few seeds deep in his mind that made it easier to turn against his master later. But even though Sirius ultimately provided the catalyst for Regulus's betrayal, there must have been some reasons why Regulus couldn't go to Sirius for help - whether because there was already too great a rift between them, or because he was proud and couldn't stand to tell his (rather condescending) brother that he was right all along, or because he knew fighting Voldemort would involve his self-sacrifice and he didn't want to get his brother involved.

Again, this is all pure speculation which is not backed up by canon.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

Bellatrix married because she considered it her "duty". I think she would also consider it her duty to produce children. Why would she consider marriage a duty but not producing children? Especially when she was married to a pureblood and she was among the bigots who bemoaned the dwindling pureblood population? She may have been waiting until her precious Dark Lord was more secure in his power. Or, she may have been unable to have children. Not being maternal wouldn't have stopped Bellatrix from producing Voldemort's next generation of servants. It's not as if she would have needed to have any contact with the child if she didn't want to.

I think she probably married so as to show that she bought into the pureblood ideology. If at some point in her life she wouldn't want Rodolphus anymore it would not be hard for her to leave him or get rid of him another way (I believe she had already left him in DH, they are not seen together at all). Children would be harder to get rid of and maybe tie her down too much for her liking. I'm sure having children was considered a duty but Bellatrix probably thought she contributed to the pureblood supremacy cause in other ways (by serving Voldemort).

The Weasleys were not rabid bigots in insisting on only marrying purebloods as the Black family were. The DEs and their supporters did seem to see it as their duty to carry on their pureblood lines - one child is enough to carry on the line. The Weasleys didn't instill fanatic twisted bigotry in their children. The fanatic purebloods limited themselves to other so-called "nature's nobility" to keep their lines pure - so I stand by my view that they wanted to breed the next generation of purebloods.

I was joking about the Weasleys, not implying they were rabid bigots. And I'm sure you're right about the purebloods wanting to produce the next generation of fanatics but that's not to say all purebloods wanted children or succumbed to this expectation. Bellatrix, being a DE, contributed in another way to the pureblood mania. If she didn't want children, she probably saw that as being enough. She had done her duty. Narcissa had Draco not because it was expected of her, IMO, but because she really wanted him. We saw that she was really maternal and loved him very much.

Besides, if Bellatrix did want children but never got a chance to have them doesn't that negate the whole contrast with Molly?

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by lucky charms

If this portrayal of their relationship is accurate, then I believe that even though Sirius detested Regulus for being a suck-up who was always eager to curry favor with his parents, Regulus didn't necessarily harbor such animosity toward his older brother.

I don't think Sirius detested Regulus - he says in OotP that he hated them all, but he describes Regulus as "his idiot brother, foolish enough to believe them". I think there was some regret there, I think he saw Regulus as gullible rather than warped like the rest of the family, and I think he was sad that his brother was taken in by their bile.

Originally Posted by Sereena

I think she probably married so as to show that she bought into the pureblood ideology. If at some point in her life she wouldn't want Rodolphus anymore it would not be hard for her to leave him or get rid of him another way (I believe she had already left him in DH, they are not seen together at all). Children would be harder to get rid of and maybe tie her down too much for her liking. I'm sure having children was considered a duty but Bellatrix probably thought she contributed to the pureblood supremacy cause in other ways (by serving Voldemort).

But why bother getting married to prove she bought into the pureblood ideology? As you say, she showed that by serving Voldemort. If she didn't need to have pureblood children to prove her dedication to fanatical bigotry, then why should she need to marry to prove her dedication to said tripe?

I was joking about the Weasleys, not implying they were rabid bigots. And I'm sure you're right about the purebloods wanting to produce the next generation of fanatics but that's not to say all purebloods wanted children or succumbed to this expectation. Bellatrix, being a DE, contributed in another way to the pureblood mania. If she didn't want children, she probably saw that as being enough. She had done her duty.

I'm sure she could have done both. It's shown enough in the series that the fanatics are obsessed with the purity of their own line, as well as the lines of others. Bellatrix, with her warped notions, may have considered it her responsibility to have children. She didn't want them, or wouldn't care for them, but I think she would have had them, for the sake of her pureblood line.

Narcissa had Draco not because it was expected of her, IMO, but because she really wanted him. We saw that she was really maternal and loved him very much.

Narcissa loved her son, yes. However, I'm also sure she saw it as her duty to continue the Malfoy line.

Besides, if Bellatrix did want children but never got a chance to have them doesn't that negate the whole contrast with Molly?

How does it? Molly wanted children, and loved them, and saw them as people in their own right. Bellatrix would have seen her children as the next generation of purebloods, future servants of Voldemort. Objects, not people. This is the woman who says, rather Lady Macbeth-like, that if she had children, she would have been honoured to give them to Voldemort. Completely unlike Molly, and even completely unlike Narcissa.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

But why bother getting married to prove she bought into the pureblood ideology? As you say, she showed that by serving Voldemort. If she didn't need to have pureblood children to prove her dedication to fanatical bigotry, then why should she need to marry to prove her dedication to said tripe?

I think there could be many reasons for her not wanting to be single. First of all, it might be a bit of a stigma for a woman to be single especially as she gets older and the rest of the family might wonder whether something is wrong with her. Second, Bellatrix was what I would call a catch by pureblood standards: she was beautiful, she had a good pedigree, a large wealth and she was talented. It's possible that she picked a husband simply to take herself off the market and not have to fend off suitors all the time. Third, she probably wasn't a Death Eater before she married so no one knew (probably not even herself) that she would be serving Voldemort. These are all just speculations as there is no canon to go by.

I'm sure she could have done both. It's shown enough in the series that the fanatics are obsessed with the purity of their own line, as well as the lines of others. Bellatrix, with her warped notions, may have considered it her responsibility to have children. She didn't want them, or wouldn't care for them, but I think she would have had them, for the sake of her pureblood line.

Well, let's not forget that her marriage was pretty much a sham as well. Bellatrix was, after all, waiting for romantic attention from Voldemort. I think she would have considered having a child by another man an impediment.

Narcissa loved her son, yes. However, I'm also sure she saw it as her duty to continue the Malfoy line.

Maybe but does it really matter why people have children as long as the children are loved and cared for? After all, don't we all want descendants, isn't that why we are so keen on reproducing? That's not something which only applies to some families, IMO. Draco was spoiled and loved by his parents so I think they really wanted him, as opposed to Sirius's mother who may not have wanted children. Draco also admires his parents as opposed to the Weasley children, however misguided he might be in doing so.

How does it? Molly wanted children, and loved them, and saw them as people in their own right. Bellatrix would have seen her children as the next generation of purebloods, future servants of Voldemort. Objects, not people. This is the woman who says, rather Lady Macbeth-like, that if she had children, she would have been honoured to give them to Voldemort. Completely unlike Molly, and even completely unlike Narcissa.

Molly's children also worked for Dumbledore and ran dangers doing so occasionally. Narcissa didn't have a problem with Draco working for Voldemort in general, but I think she would have prefered him to do so when he was older and perhaps for him engage in less dangerous missions.

I'm not opposed to the idea of Bellatrix having wanted children at some point in her life. I do, however, think that her being childless by choice would make the contrast between her and Molly clearer. I think this is what the duel implies: that Bellatrix has neither the desire nor the qualities necessary to be a mother. Molly has both in abundance.

[asdfasdf17]

Originally Posted by lucky charms

His exposure to Sirius's ideas - which he would of course have utterly rejected at the time - may have planted a few seeds deep in his mind that made it easier to turn against his master later. But even though Sirius ultimately provided the catalyst for Regulus's betrayal, there must have been some reasons why Regulus couldn't go to Sirius for help - whether because there was already too great a rift between them, or because he was proud and couldn't stand to tell his (rather condescending) brother that he was right all along, or because he knew fighting Voldemort would involve his self-sacrifice and he didn't want to get his brother involved.

Again, this is all pure speculation which is not backed up by canon.

I think your take on Sirius and Regulus's relationship is quite interesting.
But one thing I would disagree on is the affect Sirius had on Regulus's decision. IMO Regulus turned against the Dark Lord because he realized what Voldemort was willing to do to achieve his goal. I believe he was disgusted by this and wanted no part of it anymore so he went against his master. I don't think Sirius played any part in this decision. Also, I don't believe Regulus ever lost his belief in blood-purity and the superiority of pure-bloods; he just didn't want to achieve blood-purity the way Voldemort wanted to. But that is just my opinion