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  #341  
Old March 20th, 2012, 3:48 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
If only Snape had had time to write a new textbook. It would have improved the potion-making skills of generations of witches and wizards.
Yup, most likely Snape would have turned out to be some academic presenting papers on potion making and such.


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  #342  
Old March 20th, 2012, 7:07 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

did anyone realise that the potions book was out-dated? They could renew the copyright everyso many years and not realise that anything was outdated. And if Snape wanted to re-write the potions book, he would have. He had to do something during his time after leaving Hogwarts and when Harry started.

I wonder how Ginny knew Zabini? Zabini didn't believe Slughorn when he talked about Harry surviving the AK curse, and Ginny burst out that Zabini was good at posing. He was Slytherin. I knew she had friends outside of Gryffindor. Slughorn accepted her anyway into his club.


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  #343  
Old March 20th, 2012, 8:42 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
Harry didn't go because he didn't like the attention not because the party as such was bad. James and Sirius were not like that though.
They might not have liked schmoozing with politicians and other Ministry idiots, though. Political climbing wasn't their thing at all.

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Or rather they believe that aren't suited to that house which may or may not be true. My point is that it is all based on hearsay and their own wishes not because of any objective evaluation.
But the Hat does not just put people wherever they wish, IMO. It takes their opinion and wishes into account, but I don't think it puts people into a House they are completely unsuited to, if another one suits them better.

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Originally Posted by StarryVeil View Post
From what we see of James's character, I got the feeling he would have tried to avoid it at all costs. He came off as the kind of teenage guy who would've thought he was too cool for a gathering of teacher's pets. I can just imagine him and Sirius off on an adventure as Padfoot and Prongs, laughing their heads off about how Lily (who would've been too polite to refuse) was stuck with all the stuffy Percys of the school.
I can imagine that. Gathering around and making connections with people who considered themselves important would not have been their cup of tea. I agree, they would have preferred to be off having a laugh.

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Originally Posted by iluvseverus View Post
I know, I didn't say so, Phineas did. I know Harry was doing his 'saving people thing', running away, so the others wouldn't be at risk from him. I was just quoting Nigellus.
But then, why would it say anything about Harry having "Slytherin qualities"?

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Harry was a descendant of Ignotis Perverell. DD considered the Perverells "dangerous" wizards. Perhaps a bit of Slytherin in there somewhere?
Um, after an unknown number of centuries? I don't think that says anything. And we don't know if the Peverells pre-dated Hogwarts.

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I agree. Harry was pretty disgusted with James showing off in SWM. There is no indication that Slughorn indulged in the Dark Arts or restricted his Club to those with that kind of tendency, so I see no reason for James to decline, if he had been invited.
Perhaps he wasn't interested in making connections and cosying up to important people?

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That does seem to be the case. Maybe those who don't have an opinion, when sorted, benefit from having a direction in life. Of course the ones who find out they are definitely in the wrong house are out of luck.
There can be very few who have no opinion at all when Sorted. Muggleborns mostly, and then, those with little to no curiosity or interest in their new world and who didn't speak to anyone about it.

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Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
I don't think Slughorn would have asked James or Sirius to join his Club, since they were mischief makers. That would reflect badly on him.
That's a good point. I doubt Slughorn would have invited students in their first few years at Hogwarts, and by their middle years, James and Sirius would have established themselves as troublemakers.

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Fleur was staying with the Weasleys to get to know them better; obviously she was bored staying there. I wonder why Ginny called her Phlegm?
I think Ginny sought a rude nickname in response to Fleur's rudeness.

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Originally Posted by Pokota;5993054 If you've ever seen [I
Keeping Up Appearances[/i], it's pretty much in the same vein as someone deliberately pronouncing Hyacinth's last name as Bucket instead of Bouquet despite Hyacinth's protests.
Except that according to Hyacinth's husband, it was always "Bucket".

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Malfoy, a Death Eater? What an absurd proposition!
Because Voldemort wants proof of age before recruiting and Malfoy is harmless.

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Neville Longbottom and Luna Lovegood, the two unsung heroes of the Raid on the Hall of Prophecy. Question: Why didn't Neville and Luna try to continue the D.A. without Harry? They both are quite capable of doing so.
In HBP? Harry no longer had interest in doing it, and I don't think Neville yet had the confidence to do so himself. And I don't think Luna had, either - while she had confidence in herself as an individual, I don't think she would have had confidence in herself as a leader, or in other peoples' willingness to follow her.

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Neville Longbottom and the Prisoner of... no, had Neville been the marked child, there would be no story really, as Neville would have done in one book what Harry did in seven. Granted, it would have taken six years for Neville to get his nerves, but once he did...
Why? There would still be different problems each year, Neville would still have to grow into the young man willing to die to stop Voldemort. The Hogwarts landscape would have been somewhat different, though.

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Anapneo would be very useful around my place.. Stupid Question number two: Why is Astronomy required, yet Muggle Studies is not? If the Death Eaters hadn't forced MS to be as AntiMuggle as possible, I would have at least approved the requirement of Muggle Studies in the curriculum. (This line of thought stems from wondering if Madam Pomfrey teaches Basic Healing Magic to the NEWT-level students and then thinking that should be something all students get anyway)
I definitely think that properly taught Muggle Studies as opposed to the DE version should have been compulsory, and I'd like to think it was made compulsory after the war.

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Interesting: Neville says to Slughorn that he didn't hear a prophecy, not that there was no prophecy.
Clever wording from Neville. I guess he didn't want to lie, but didn't want to betray Harry either.

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I'm sorry, but I just love Zabini in this scene. "He invited Longbottom?" "Well, I assume so, as Longbottom was there." You know, I wonder how much of his reply to Pansy was just him keeping up appearances...
I love Zabini's barely-hidden dislike of Malfoy. It's nice that at least someone in Slytherin isn't fawning over Malfoy or playing bodyguard to him.

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Episkey is another one that would be useful no matter what you did for a living... why don't they have a magical equivalent of a First Aid class, again?
Perhaps it would/should have been part of Defence against the Dark Arts at some point, if they'd had a more co-ordinated experience of the subject. Or, perhaps Healing Charms were part of the Seventh Year curriculum.


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Lavender Brown... I wonder what she saw in Ron?
He was successful on the Quidditch team and had been involved in the Ministry fiasco the previous summer. And perhaps she found him attractive, too.


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Snape brings up a good point in his annual tirade this year - You cannot expect a routine formula to work against the Dark Arts in the same way that you can expect a routine formula to brew a workable potion. Those who practice the Dark Arts have cunning and intelligence, therefore you need intelligence and cunning to combat them effectively.
Yes, but you don't need to descend to their level.

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I wonder why Non-verbalized spells are that much more difficult to produce than Verbalized spells? If sound and motion are what produces a reaction within the wand that leads to the desired result, what if there was a two-wizard team - one to hold the wand and do the movements, while the other wizard actually verbalizes the spell?
I think that speaking the spell makes it easier to focus and to direct the magic.

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Is the recipe in the textbook deliberately wrong in order to promote creative thinking and experimentation?
I don't think that's a great idea for learning. Recipes in cookery/Home Ec are given properly, chemistry experiments (closer to Potions) are given correctly.

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Once again, Harry grabs a perfect chance to snipe at the Slytherins in general with his "got lucky, I suppose" line.
Why would it be a dig, rather than just avoiding giving too much information? Malfoy was annoyed because he didn't get the perfect tool to aid in murder.

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
Yup, most likely Snape would have turned out to be some academic presenting papers on potion making and such.
Sadly, he was too busy being a criminal to become an academic when he left school. It seems to me that he had little interest in becoming an academic when there were shortcuts to being important.

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Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
He had to do something during his time after leaving Hogwarts and when Harry started.
Well, he did, do something. He became a criminal, and later a spy and teacher.

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I wonder how Ginny knew Zabini? Zabini didn't believe Slughorn when he talked about Harry surviving the AK curse, and Ginny burst out that Zabini was good at posing. He was Slytherin. I knew she had friends outside of Gryffindor. Slughorn accepted her anyway into his club.
I think Ginny would have known more of the students of Hogwarts than the trio. Harry, Ron and Hermione seemed to keep to themselves a bit. Or, perhaps she just wanted to make a dig at him in retaliation for his dig?


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  #344  
Old March 20th, 2012, 9:30 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
did anyone realise that the potions book was out-dated? They could renew the copyright everyso many years and not realise that anything was outdated. And if Snape wanted to re-write the potions book, he would have. He had to do something during his time after leaving Hogwarts and when Harry started.
It doesn't seem to be out dated - Harry never has any problems, not that we see anyway, with things being missing from the HBP's text book. It seems very possible to me that the wizardng world doesn't move as swiftly as ours currently does in regards to things becoming outdated - indeed ours didn't change as quickly before the micro chip!


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  #345  
Old March 20th, 2012, 11:56 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
did anyone realise that the potions book was out-dated? They could renew the copyright everyso many years and not realise that anything was outdated. And if Snape wanted to re-write the potions book, he would have. He had to do something during his time after leaving Hogwarts and when Harry started.
How often should it be updated? I mean, in basic chemistry, in basic physics, in basic biology (and we're talking like high school level "basic") there isn't really a whole lot of change and if there is it isn't fast-moving change, it's a little bit every decade, maybe. The textbook for potions might not have needed to change since as far as we know all it contains are recipes for potions. The theory which might have been what was changing might not have been written in Advanced Potions Making, it might have been so fast moving that to buy new textbooks every year was cost prohibitive so the professor verbally taught it or did hand outs or something.

As for Snape rewriting it with his improvements I'm not so sure. Part of me thinks he would want to keep that knowledge only to himself so that he can appear smarter than his classmates or not want to share it so that he can snidely correct his students.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Um, after an unknown number of centuries? I don't think that says anything. And we don't know if the Peverells pre-dated Hogwarts.
I got the impression that the Peverells were medieval, maybe as old as 8th or 9th century, maybe as young as 11th or 12th. By the time their story "The Tale of the Three Brothers" was written down it had already lost its "reality" and passed into the world of "fairytale" and I think that would have taken a couple centuries. I'd use Robin Hood as an example (I think his story dates back to like the 9th century) but it has never conclusively been proven that he was a real person.

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There can be very few who have no opinion at all when Sorted. Muggleborns mostly, and then, those with little to no curiosity or interest in their new world and who didn't speak to anyone about it.
I have the thought that if you dump the "pureblood" criteria from Slytherin's sorting rules for Slytherin House then a whole lot of muggleborns would have been sorted into Slytherin based solely on the fact that they would likely have strong ambitions of showing up the kids from magical families and become the best students in the school. Then again, there's also the theory that they generally all come to Hogwarts wanting to learn as much as possible so they'd be sorted into Ravenclaw...

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That's a good point. I doubt Slughorn would have invited students in their first few years at Hogwarts, and by their middle years, James and Sirius would have established themselves as troublemakers.
I think if Slughorn saw enough raw talent in someone he would want to pull that talent into his circle. He might have been reluctant to invite James or Sirius because of their troublemaking natures but after a while their talents and his desire to "collect" them would over rule his trepidation about their lawless ways. (Am imagining James and Sirius entering the Slug Club party and the theme from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly kicks up - ooEEooEEooooo - wah-wah-wah!)

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I definitely think that properly taught Muggle Studies as opposed to the DE version should have been compulsory, and I'd like to think it was made compulsory after the war.
I agree. Wizards are hopelessly stupid about muggles.

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Perhaps it would/should have been part of Defence against the Dark Arts at some point, if they'd had a more co-ordinated experience of the subject. Or, perhaps Healing Charms were part of the Seventh Year curriculum.
It's possible that there were elective classes that one could take in one's sixth or seventh years like how once you've passed your second year tests you can begin taking Divination, Ancient Runes, Arithmancy, CoMC, etc.. I can't imagine that every student excelled in enough classes and achieved high enough grades on their O.W.Ls to go on to N.E.W.T. level classes in enough subjects to fill their time. Either a whole lot of students got "early release," everyone at Hogwarts is freakishly smart, or a Hogwarts education really is as limited as it is presented in the books. (I think it was presented that way in the books simply to streamline the story.)

I, personally, feel like as one progresses into the high grade levels more classes would be offered so that students can begin to specialize in areas they are particularly interested in and that, after hogwarts, there are further schools that take that specialization even further. I don't believe for a second, for instance, that an 18-year-old can pass all his N.E.W.T. level classes and go out and apply to for the open Healer position as St. Mungo's. Auror's have some sort of training program for recruits. I imagine specialized fields such as wand making would require further training or apprenticeships.

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I don't think that's a great idea for learning. Recipes in cookery/Home Ec are given properly, chemistry experiments (closer to Potions) are given correctly.
Agreed. Unless it's an assignment given by the teacher "find what's wrong with this recipe" it's a very bad idea to give a novice the wrong recipe and think they'll know enough to fix it or know enough not to blow up the school on accident following the wrongly written recipe.


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  #346  
Old March 21st, 2012, 2:20 am
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
How often should it be updated? I mean, in basic chemistry, in basic physics, in basic biology (and we're talking like high school level "basic") there isn't really a whole lot of change and if there is it isn't fast-moving change, it's a little bit every decade, maybe. The textbook for potions might not have needed to change since as far as we know all it contains are recipes for potions. The theory which might have been what was changing might not have been written in Advanced Potions Making, it might have been so fast moving that to buy new textbooks every year was cost prohibitive so the professor verbally taught it or did hand outs or something.
Here's what i find odd. Slughorn's class is filled with students who earned the top score on the OWLS. If the textbook they're using is correct, and Harry (who did not earn a top score) is suddenly able to brew complex potions, then, shouldn't his brewing be equal to the other students, rather than surpassing them on every single potion? Shouldn't Hermione at least be able to match him, if her "recipe" she's following is accurate and will create the same potion? I don't see this as being similar to a cake - either the potion does the job it's brewed for or it does not, i.e, Draught of the Living Death's only purpose is to kill, or the potion doesn't work, and the person who drinks the Draught survives. It's a straight forward "works" or "doesn't work."

Since Harry is surpassing all of the other students, then the fault must be with the textbook they're using. I would think that any student at that level should be able to brew the potions in the book. The Prince's textbook's methods may be faster, but they shouldn't be more accurate. If they are faster, then, once again, I think the book is out dated. My opinion.

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As for Snape rewriting it with his improvements I'm not so sure. Part of me thinks he would want to keep that knowledge only to himself so that he can appear smarter than his classmates or not want to share it so that he can snidely correct his students.
I think if this were the case, when we saw him teaching potions he would have kept referring to the book and not type instructions on the board. I think he used his personal knowledge.


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  #347  
Old March 21st, 2012, 2:20 am
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
Um, after an unknown number of centuries? I don't think that says anything. And we don't know if the Peverells pre-dated Hogwarts.
Not quite seeing how an unknown number of centuries would affect things. Harry was a Perverell descendent--he had his genes and his cloak.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
There can be very few who have no opinion at all when Sorted. Muggleborns mostly, and then, those with little to no curiosity or interest in their new world and who didn't speak to anyone about it.
Not necessarily. These were children after all.

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
How often should it be updated? I mean, in basic chemistry, in basic physics, in basic biology (and we're talking like high school level "basic") there isn't really a whole lot of change and if there is it isn't fast-moving change, it's a little bit every decade, maybe. The textbook for potions might not have needed to change since as far as we know all it contains are recipes for potions. The theory which might have been what was changing might not have been written in Advanced Potions Making, it might have been so fast moving that to buy new textbooks every year was cost prohibitive so the professor verbally taught it or did hand outs or something.
The basics might not change, but lab technique sure can. Snape's techniques as written in his Potions book far outstripped what the book offered--or Harry wouldn't have done so well using them.

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
As for Snape rewriting it with his improvements I'm not so sure. Part of me thinks he would want to keep that knowledge only to himself so that he can appear smarter than his classmates or not want to share it so that he can snidely correct his students.
I think he kept it from his classmates, but he certainly shared it with his students. He wrote potion-making instructions on the chalkboard for his classes. And he seemed genuinely annoyed by the "dunderheads" in his classes--why would he make that worse by letting them use outmoded techniqes?


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  #348  
Old March 21st, 2012, 4:18 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Here's what i find odd. Slughorn's class is filled with students who earned the top score on the OWLS. If the textbook they're using is correct, and Harry (who did not earn a top score) is suddenly able to brew complex potions, then, shouldn't his brewing be equal to the other students, rather than surpassing them on every single potion?
My view of it wasn't that the recipes in Snape's book were vastly improved but that his techniques for brewing them (stirring in a different pattern, chopping ingredients differently, etc) resulted in more consistent outcomes even when the brewer was a layman like Harry. Whereas, with Hermione and the not improved book, her results might have been spottier because of slight discrepencies, waiting two seconds too long to add an ingredient, and simple lack of repitition in brewing the potion.

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Shouldn't Hermione at least be able to match him, if her "recipe" she's following is accurate and will create the same potion?
It's like piano players - Harry is a competent novice and Hermione is on the verge of being a master pianist. But both still have to practice in order to perform perfectly at their respective levels of ability. In the case of Advanced Potions Making, it's like a very difficult, very advanced piece of music - Hermione straight up got the sheet music and nothing else but Harry got the shortcuts on how to best and most easily learn or perform the piece.

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i.e, Draught of the Living Death's only purpose is to kill, or the potion doesn't work, and the person who drinks the Draught survives. It's a straight forward "works" or "doesn't work."
The Draught of Living Death doesn't kill the drinker, it puts them into such a deep sleep that they appear to be dead - like Juliette in Romeo and Juliette...

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Since Harry is surpassing all of the other students, then the fault must be with the textbook they're using. I would think that any student at that level should be able to brew the potions in the book. The Prince's textbook's methods may be faster, but they shouldn't be more accurate. If they are faster, then, once again, I think the book is out dated. My opinion.
Like I said above, I think Snape's notes resulted in more consistent outcomes. The textbook they used probably relied on repitition in order to achieve consistent outcomes of the potions being brewed as many activities do. I agree that the students in N.E.W.T. level potions should have been able to brew the potions following the textbook but there are other factors that would screw it up, human error being one of them: reading Lacewing Eyes instead of Lacewing Flies, adding an ingredient too soon or too late... I think even following Snape's notes Harry could have screwed up the potion but the fact that he had to stop, slow down and decifer the handwriting acted in a way to slow him down so that he was double checking his work and fewer errors resulted thus he achieved better results.

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Harry was a descendant of Ignotis Perverell. DD considered the Perverells "dangerous" wizards. Perhaps a bit of Slytherin in there somewhere?
I forgot to respond to this in my last post.

The Peverell brothers were considered dangerous because they were exceedingly powerful and capable of creating such magical artifacts that could last for centuries or perhaps millenia without degredation of the artifact itself or the magic imbued in that artifact. Not to mention one of them went on to be the first owner of the Elder Wand... I would consider Dumbledore a dangerous wizard, myself - he was exceedingly talented, exceedingly bright, had an ambition for power and glory and apparently the will to act on those ambitions. He did turn away from the dark path he had started on but I still consider him dangerous just as the brother who created the Elder Wand was dangerous. Any excepitional wizard had the capability of being called "dangerous." Hermione could be dangerous.

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Not quite seeing how an unknown number of centuries would affect things. Harry was a Perverell descendent--he had his genes and his cloak.
Saying that Harry was considered for Slytherin because he was distantly related to a potentially dark or dangerous wizard is like saying I would be considered for Slytherin because I'm distantly related to Caligula or Attila the Hun or Vlad the Impaler. They are them and I am me, their acts bear no weight on the person I am or my personality hundreds of years after they've died. Likewise, the Peverells had no influence on who Harry became or why he would be sorted into one house over another.

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The basics might not change, but lab technique sure can. Snape's techniques as written in his Potions book far outstripped what the book offered--or Harry wouldn't have done so well using them.
Far enough on the lab technique. Though are you saying that Snape's notes would fall into that category? I'm still not sure we know enough about the contents of the textbook to say categorically that it was insufficient and should have been updated and republished.

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I think he kept it from his classmates, but he certainly shared it with his students. He wrote potion-making instructions on the chalkboard for his classes. And he seemed genuinely annoyed by the "dunderheads" in his classes--why would he make that worse by letting them use outmoded techniqes?
Technically we don't know if his instructions on the board were improvements to the recipes in the lower years' books because we are never specifically told his instructions differ from the "official" recipe.

Okay, I need to catch up on my HBP reading here... I'm still on, like, chapter 5


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  #349  
Old March 21st, 2012, 7:27 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
I have the thought that if you dump the "pureblood" criteria from Slytherin's sorting rules for Slytherin House then a whole lot of muggleborns would have been sorted into Slytherin based solely on the fact that they would likely have strong ambitions of showing up the kids from magical families and become the best students in the school. Then again, there's also the theory that they generally all come to Hogwarts wanting to learn as much as possible so they'd be sorted into Ravenclaw...
Or Gryffindor, as it takes a whole lot of nerve to leave behind everything and everyone you know and jump into a completely different world and society.

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Agreed. Unless it's an assignment given by the teacher "find what's wrong with this recipe" it's a very bad idea to give a novice the wrong recipe and think they'll know enough to fix it or know enough not to blow up the school on accident following the wrongly written recipe.
I agree - incorrectly brewed potions can be dangerous, it's shown in the text. And in terms of "find what's wrong", something as potentially dangerous as potions would be clearly labelled as mistaken in the textbook. And it defeats the purpose if the objective in every single lesson is to find the mistake.

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Not quite seeing how an unknown number of centuries would affect things. Harry was a Perverell descendent--he had his genes and his cloak.
Yes, he was a Peverell descendant. Why should that mean that Harry had Slytherin qualities?

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Not necessarily. These were children after all.
Yes, they were children. But they did talk and listen and think and form opinions. None of them were tabula rasa going into Hogwarts. They would have had access to other people's information and opinions on the Houses - especially in wizarding families. Those from Muggle families would have spoken to others on the train - they would have heard about the Houses their compartment companions wanted to be in. They may have heard about the Houses from those who introduced them to the magical world. They would all have heard the Hat's information on the Houses. All of them would have had at least some idea of what to expect of the different Houses, all of them would have at least begun to form an opinion.

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I think he kept it from his classmates, but he certainly shared it with his students. He wrote potion-making instructions on the chalkboard for his classes. And he seemed genuinely annoyed by the "dunderheads" in his classes--why would he make that worse by letting them use outmoded techniqes?
Wouldn't someone like Hermione have noticed that Snape's instructions were different from those in the textbook? And I don't think Snape cared too much about improving the skills of his students. IMO, he was going to gripe anyway.

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It's like piano players - Harry is a competent novice and Hermione is on the verge of being a master pianist. But both still have to practice in order to perform perfectly at their respective levels of ability. In the case of Advanced Potions Making, it's like a very difficult, very advanced piece of music - Hermione straight up got the sheet music and nothing else but Harry got the shortcuts on how to best and most easily learn or perform the piece.
Interesting analogy. It makes a lot of sense.

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I think even following Snape's notes Harry could have screwed up the potion but the fact that he had to stop, slow down and decifer the handwriting acted in a way to slow him down so that he was double checking his work and fewer errors resulted thus he achieved better results.
Ooh, interesting point. I think Potions is a subject where people could easily make mistakes through haste, trying to get everything done on time, and all the ingredients organised and used.

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Saying that Harry was considered for Slytherin because he was distantly related to a potentially dark or dangerous wizard is like saying I would be considered for Slytherin because I'm distantly related to Caligula or Attila the Hun or Vlad the Impaler. They are them and I am me, their acts bear no weight on the person I am or my personality hundreds of years after they've died. Likewise, the Peverells had no influence on who Harry became or why he would be sorted into one house over another.
I totally agree. Harry's ancestry doesn't matter.


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Old March 22nd, 2012, 2:59 am
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

It's possible Lucius Malfoy was in the Slug Club. But Draco wasn't picked because Slughorn thought he might be a DE? And by now, Draco already had the task to kill Dumbldore. I wasn't surprised to think Draco might be one because I thought Regulas was a DE at 16 or 17, if Tom Riddle was sixteen when he killed his father and grandparents, it seemed logical he would want young people to learn about the DE's.
Get them when they are young and impressionable.


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Old March 22nd, 2012, 4:19 am
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
It's possible Lucius Malfoy was in the Slug Club. But Draco wasn't picked because Slughorn thought he might be a DE? And by now, Draco already had the task to kill Dumbldore. I wasn't surprised to think Draco might be one because I thought Regulas was a DE at 16 or 17, if Tom Riddle was sixteen when he killed his father and grandparents, it seemed logical he would want young people to learn about the DE's.
Get them when they are young and impressionable.
That's an interestimg point you've raised there. Why didn't Voldemort have more young recruits, fresh out of school? There was certainly no lack of people eager for the job (I'm assuming Draco's Slytherin cronies admired Voldemort, especially the DE kids). My theory is that he preferred fully qualified, skilled wizards, who would know what they're signing up for, rather than adolescents, who joined his ranks in a fit of hero-worship, or to follow in their parents' footsteps, and regretted it later. Looks like he learned his lesson from the Regulus fiasco.
Or maybe, just maybe, the humane side of his nature prevented him from trying to corrupt young minds.


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Old March 22nd, 2012, 4:29 am
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

We really don't know how old a lot of DE's were when they started. Some were adults and some might have been younger. Voldemort had a big army in the first war, and we don't know how long that lasted.
We do know from Snape and Narcissa that Voldemort was angry at Lucius for the fiasco at the Ministry and that he was punishing him by making Draco kill Dumbldore.


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Old March 22nd, 2012, 2:22 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

I don't think Voldemort ever really found out about Regulus, though, as Voldemort didn't completely obliterate the Black Family as retribution. I mean seriously, if Regulus not only knew Voldemort had made Horcruxes and was planning on destroying them, don't you think Voldemort would make an example of the Blacks?


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Old March 22nd, 2012, 3:31 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by iluvseverus View Post
That's an interestimg point you've raised there. Why didn't Voldemort have more young recruits, fresh out of school? There was certainly no lack of people eager for the job (I'm assuming Draco's Slytherin cronies admired Voldemort, especially the DE kids). My theory is that he preferred fully qualified, skilled wizards, who would know what they're signing up for, rather than adolescents, who joined his ranks in a fit of hero-worship, or to follow in their parents' footsteps, and regretted it later. Looks like he learned his lesson from the Regulus fiasco.
Or maybe, just maybe, the humane side of his nature prevented him from trying to corrupt young minds.
Lily tells Snape:
DH: The Prince's TaleYou and your precious little Death Eater friends --you see, you don't even deny it! You don't even deny that's what you're all aiming to be! You can't wait to join You-Know-Who, can you?"
This seems like LV was definitely into recruiting the younger generation (Snape was fifth year during this conversation). And we have to remember that not everyone that joined LV became Death Eaters. Death Eater status was reserved for his inner circle and apparently had to be earned.

Snape was a Death Eater by the time he came to DD to ask him to protect Lily. He was about 21 at the time. That's still quite young.

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I don't think Voldemort ever really found out about Regulus, though, as Voldemort didn't completely obliterate the Black Family as retribution. I mean seriously, if Regulus not only knew Voldemort had made Horcruxes and was planning on destroying them, don't you think Voldemort would make an example of the Blacks?
I don’t think so either. Just moments before he died, Regulus left the note in the locket explaining he knew LV’s secret. Since the locket was still there when DD and Harry came calling, I suspect Voldemort never found out that Regulus had switched sides. And all because of Kreacher.

I've often wondered how Regulus found out.


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  #355  
Old March 22nd, 2012, 4:33 pm
Goddess_Clio  Female.gif Goddess_Clio is offline
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
It's possible Lucius Malfoy was in the Slug Club. But Draco wasn't picked because Slughorn thought he might be a DE? And by now, Draco already had the task to kill Dumbldore. I wasn't surprised to think Draco might be one because I thought Regulas was a DE at 16 or 17, if Tom Riddle was sixteen when he killed his father and grandparents, it seemed logical he would want young people to learn about the DE's.
Get them when they are young and impressionable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvseverus View Post
That's an interestimg point you've raised there. Why didn't Voldemort have more young recruits, fresh out of school? There was certainly no lack of people eager for the job (I'm assuming Draco's Slytherin cronies admired Voldemort, especially the DE kids). My theory is that he preferred fully qualified, skilled wizards, who would know what they're signing up for, rather than adolescents, who joined his ranks in a fit of hero-worship, or to follow in their parents' footsteps, and regretted it later. Looks like he learned his lesson from the Regulus fiasco.
Or maybe, just maybe, the humane side of his nature prevented him from trying to corrupt young minds.
I think Voldemort was after A) as many likeminded followers as he could round up and B) as many talented wizards as he could get to make up his inner circle. I don't think he was discriminating because of age, if you were talented you'd get the invitation.

I actually see Voldemort as the wicked version of Slughorn in a way. slughorn collects people for fairly innocent reasons (to get free tickets to sporting events, to garner popularity from students that boost his ego and to fell important and well connected to the world in general) whereas Voldemort collects people for self-serving and generally evil reasons; he collects those who have a penchant for criminality or murder, talents in brutality or cruelty towards others and those who show exceptional ability in magic in general, especially those who are interested in the dark arts already but that appears not to be a prerequisite.

We also need to remember that just because you were interested in supporting Voldemort that didn't mean you would automatically become a Death Eater. Death Eaters were Voldemorts inner circle, his private club of talented and cruel individuals who showed exceptional loyalty or simply had a particular talent or ability that Voldemort thought was indispensible. Even if every Slytherin in Snape's graduating class wanted to become a Death Eater he would still only choose the most exceptional, the most talented to get the mark and join him officially. Snape, Mulciber and Avery were the ones, apparently, who showed the most talent or the most promise so they were the ones to get the invitation.


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  #356  
Old March 22nd, 2012, 5:30 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
We also need to remember that just because you were interested in supporting Voldemort that didn't mean you would automatically become a Death Eater. Death Eaters were Voldemorts inner circle, his private club of talented and cruel individuals who showed exceptional loyalty or simply had a particular talent or ability that Voldemort thought was indispensible.
Voldemort definitely had a hierarchy, and even Fenrir Greyback wasn't considered worthy to carry the Dark Mark, because he was a werewolf.

I think to become a DE you had to really prove yourself over time. Draco was the exception, because Voldemort wanted to punish Lucius. But every general needs people reporting to them, and those also have people under them, and each division would have their own jobs, based on their individual talents. I would think the "fresh out of school" batch would have to prove themselves, but there would be a place for them in the hierarchy.

I think Draco wasn't in the Slug Club because Lucius had been in Azkaban and was now a known DE, and therefore Draco, unless he really showed something exceptional, would not be someone seen as positive in the general wizarding world. Slughorn didn't support the DE's.


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  #357  
Old March 22nd, 2012, 5:33 pm
Goddess_Clio  Female.gif Goddess_Clio is offline
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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I think to become a DE you had to really prove yourself over time. Draco was the exception, because Voldemort wanted to punish Lucius.
Peter Pettigrew was also an exception since according to canon he wasn't exceptionally talented at much but he was uniquely placed within James and Lily's inner circle and within the Order of the Phoenix so that he was in a position to be extremely useful to Voldemort. He got the mark based on what he could offer and not his talents, per se.


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Old March 22nd, 2012, 5:58 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by merrymarge:
I've often wondered how Regulus found out.
I've wondered the exact same thing, how did he figure thit out, when how long had it taken Dumbledore to realize what Tom had done?


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  #359  
Old March 22nd, 2012, 8:15 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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I've wondered the exact same thing, how did he figure thit out, when how long had it taken Dumbledore to realize what Tom had done?
Dumbledore was quite aware of the possibility that Voldemort had a horcrux. I think he even suspected more than one. He just didn't have proof.

Voldemort probably bragged about how he was going to evade death to his death eaters and if you were aware of horcruxes, its not hard to put two and two together. When Regulus heard that Voldemort was going to great lengths to hide an object, it would have immediately struck him what the object was.


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Old March 22nd, 2012, 8:44 pm
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Re: Read-A-Thon: HBP Chapters 7 - 9

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Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
It's possible Lucius Malfoy was in the Slug Club. But Draco wasn't picked because Slughorn thought he might be a DE?
I can imagine Slughorn inviting Lucius. He was wealthy and well-connected. I don't think Slughorn believed Draco to be a DE. I think he felt that having someone from a DE family in his club would undermine its credibility and his. I think he also may not have wanted to be around people with DE connections more than absolutely necessary.

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Originally Posted by iluvseverus View Post
My theory is that he preferred fully qualified, skilled wizards, who would know what they're signing up for, rather than adolescents, who joined his ranks in a fit of hero-worship, or to follow in their parents' footsteps, and regretted it later. Looks like he learned his lesson from the Regulus fiasco.
I don't think he cared if they regretted it, as long as they did what he wanted them to do.

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And we have to remember that not everyone that joined LV became Death Eaters. Death Eater status was reserved for his inner circle and apparently had to be earned.
How do we know this? Plenty of people became Snatchers to earn money. But they were not selected by Voldemort himself. They were opportunist criminals who saw an opportunity for a quick galleon. IMO, those appointed by Voldemort himself were all DEs. He didn't mark Greyback because of bigotry against werewolves. Voldemort's DEs weren't exactly the brightest and best of the wizarding world. He'd be waiting a while if he was waiting for some of them to prove themselves. And if he did want them to prove themselves first - what did they have to do to prove themselves? What depths would they have had to sink to in order for Voldemort to approve of them as DEs?

Quote:
Snape was a Death Eater by the time he came to DD to ask him to protect Lily. He was about 21 at the time. That's still quite young.
Not too young to cause irreperable damage. In the wizarding world, there seems to be a large jump between underage and of age. Once one is of age and out of school, they are given full adult responsibility.

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
I think Voldemort was after A) as many likeminded followers as he could round up and B) as many talented wizards as he could get to make up his inner circle. I don't think he was discriminating because of age, if you were talented you'd get the invitation.
Crabbe and Goyle Sr.?

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Voldemort definitely had a hierarchy, and even Fenrir Greyback wasn't considered worthy to carry the Dark Mark, because he was a werewolf.
According to Dumbledore, Voldemort's hierarchy seems to involve keeping all his minions guessing, to have them all believing that they are the most trusted and most valued. I don't think he had much of an organised hierarchy. He didn't like people to know where they stood, all the better to keep them on their toes.

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I think to become a DE you had to really prove yourself over time.
Is there anything in canon to show that? Voldemort had several young DEs - Snape, Regulus, Draco, Snape's buddies Mulciber and Avery. I think if they were useful enough, he branded them. The Dark Mark wasn't just an "honour" , it was a way for him to keep tabs on them, mark his property, it was something to bind them to him.

Quote:
Draco was the exception, because Voldemort wanted to punish Lucius. But every general needs people reporting to them, and those also have people under them, and each division would have their own jobs, based on their individual talents. I would think the "fresh out of school" batch would have to prove themselves, but there would be a place for them in the hierarchy.
I don't think there were quite that many dangerous criminals coming out of school every year in the wizarding world as to warrant such an organised hierarchy.

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Originally Posted by xhanax315 View Post
I've wondered the exact same thing, how did he figure thit out, when how long had it taken Dumbledore to realize what Tom had done?
Regulus was from a family obsessed with Dark Magic. And he bought into that. It's plausible that they would have had a book mentioning and explaining Horcruxes. Who knows, they might have had a biography of Herpo the Foul, inventor of the horcrux. On hearing Voldemort's boasts of immortality and hearing from Kreacher that there was an object he was going to extreme lengths to guard, he could have realised what was going on.


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