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Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?



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  #581  
Old March 18th, 2012, 7:58 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Well, at the same time, he is under the influence of Veritaserum, so I don't think he was choosing his words with his audience in mind, so much as just answering the question as completely and truthfully as he could.
I agree, it's hard to determine what accounts for his choice of words exactly, but I'm still convinced it is significant. He's given veritaserum so that everyone can discover things they don't already know about, right? Let me point out a couple of things about the text itself.

First is the passage where Crouch Jr. is telling Dumbledore what Voldemort had ordered him to do, in response to a direct question about what his orders had been.
A servant who would watch over Harry Potter. Ensure he reached the Triwizard Cup. Turn the cup into a Portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master.
First off, I agree, this would still have been informative even if everyone knew he had made the cup a Portkey, because he was describing what Voldemort had asked him to do, not what he had done. However, there's a pretty interesting quirk of punctuation here.
Turn the cup into a Portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master.
He was told to turn the cup into a Portkey, into a Portkey which would take the first person to touch it to his master. Now why would the comma be there if he were only saying he had been ordered to change the destination of the Portkey, and not revealing its creation to begin with? I'm not explaining this very well, but hopefully you get what I mean... either orally or in writing there should not be a pause there unless the Portkey itself is the salient piece of information and its destination only sort of corollary.

My second observation is a brief one.
A servant who would watch over Harry Potter. Ensure he reached the Triwizard Cup. Turn the cup into a Portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master.
This bit is part of a somewhat complex overlapping parallel structure. We have "A servant who would guide...", then "A servant who would watch...", and then rather more clipped statements which I believe require the previous "would," as "would ensure..." and "would turn..." Now what I guess is interesting to me is that he's describing more than anything his willingness to do these things, not merely is ability. Emphasizing, I suppose, the constant risk his deception entailed and the possibility of being discovered at any particular moment (and indeed he goes on to rather insanely describe the reward he expected). If this is the case, then turning the cup into a Portkey must be considered as part of his list of achievements, which would hardly have made the list if he was simply asked by Dumbledore to turn it into a Portkey and he changed the destination.

So veritaserum or not, I think there's a great deal of room to read his comments as providing a Portkey origin story, not a Portkey modification scheme.



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  #582  
Old March 19th, 2012, 2:33 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

The Triwizard cup may have already been a portkey to bring the winner of the tournament to the center stage to be revealed to everyone as the champion. Since Barty Crouch Jr. aka Mad-eye couldn't figure out how to undo or change the incantation performed by Dumbledore, BCJ just added an incantation ahead of the first one to take Harry to the graveyard. The initial portkeying was activated the second time Harry touched the cup, taking him and Diggory to the stage for the awarding. The band struck up when they arrived, which indicates to me that the arrival of a champion was to be expected...


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  #583  
Old March 19th, 2012, 2:41 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by captain_mills View Post
The Triwizard cup may have already been a portkey to bring the winner of the tournament to the center stage to be revealed to everyone as the champion. Since Barty Crouch Jr. aka Mad-eye couldn't figure out how to undo or change the incantation performed by Dumbledore, BCJ just added an incantation ahead of the first one to take Harry to the graveyard. The initial portkeying was activated the second time Harry touched the cup, taking him and Diggory to the stage for the awarding. The band struck up when they arrived, which indicates to me that the arrival of a champion was to be expected...
This is what I think, too; however, I think the band is movie contamination, though I don't think that the reaction of the crowd in the book matches people appearing unexpectedly, either.


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  #584  
Old March 19th, 2012, 4:45 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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This is what I think, too; however, I think the band is movie contamination, though I don't think that the reaction of the crowd in the book matches people appearing unexpectedly, either.
You're right. No band in the book. Also, no cheering either. Granted, we're getting Harry's impressions and he's barely staying conscious, but they were "voices, footsteps and screams". This could be partly due to both Cedric and Harry not moving at all on the ground.


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  #585  
Old March 19th, 2012, 5:36 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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You're right. No band in the book. Also, no cheering either. Granted, we're getting Harry's impressions and he's barely staying conscious, but they were "voices, footsteps and screams". This could be partly due to both Cedric and Harry not moving at all on the ground.
Indeed, the first comments we hear, if I recall correctly, is all concerning the dead body. No one seems the least bit curious about the students suddenly appearing.

Regardless, though, the footsteps and screams are a minor issue to me, because the winner being transported out of the maze is the only logical end to the task that fits with the events.


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  #586  
Old March 19th, 2012, 7:37 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by captain_mills View Post
The Triwizard cup may have already been a portkey to bring the winner of the tournament to the center stage to be revealed to everyone as the champion. Since Barty Crouch Jr. aka Mad-eye couldn't figure out how to undo or change the incantation performed by Dumbledore, BCJ just added an incantation ahead of the first one to take Harry to the graveyard. The initial portkeying was activated the second time Harry touched the cup, taking him and Diggory to the stage for the awarding. The band struck up when they arrived, which indicates to me that the arrival of a champion was to be expected...
All Crouch had to do to remove the original Portus charm was to touch the Cup. It would transport him to the "winners circle" and he could just take the Cup back to the center of the maze. This would be simple enough to do. And it's not something Crouch would have overlooked, because Harry could accidentally touch the cup after arriving at the graveyard and be immediately transported back to Hogwarts. LV and Crouch would certainly have taken steps to prevent this obvious error, imo.


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Old March 19th, 2012, 8:56 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
All Crouch had to do to remove the original Portus charm was to touch the Cup. It would transport him to the "winners circle" and he could just take the Cup back to the center of the maze.
I think that you may perhaps be underestimating the power of the magic (potentially) involved. You are assuming that this would be strictly the same as a Golden Snitch's flesh memory, I think, in that it can be activated by anyone and everyone at any time. However, I would not be so quick to jump to that conclusion, if only on the basis that we know that there are 'powerful magical contracts' and such at play which seem to transcend simple spells and hoodwinking.


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  #588  
Old March 19th, 2012, 10:14 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

I think it is possible that both Crouch and Voldemort were unaware that the cup was already a Portkey, to transport the winner outside the maze.

It may have been Dumbledore's little touch, turning the cup into a Portkey, in order to return the winner. If so, there was no reason for him to tell anyone about it except the judges.


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Old March 19th, 2012, 11:32 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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I think it is possible that both Crouch and Voldemort were unaware that the cup was already a Portkey, to transport the winner outside the maze.

It may have been Dumbledore's little touch, turning the cup into a Portkey, in order to return the winner. If so, there was no reason for him to tell anyone about it except the judges.
Since, in this case, it would be touch activated, wouldn't DD have to tell Crouch/Moody that it was a Portkey lest he accidentally touch it while setting it up in the maze, thus ruining it's function for the tournament?


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Old March 19th, 2012, 4:03 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Since, in this case, it would be touch activated, wouldn't DD have to tell Crouch/Moody that it was a Portkey lest he accidentally touch it while setting it up in the maze, thus ruining it's function for the tournament?
I don't see this as a problem. As I see it Portkeys are generally timed to activate at a given time. My idea of a touch activated Portkey, is were the Portkey is created and is timed to activate, from say the start of the Third task, but with no time limitation. That would mean that the Triwizard Cup could be carried into the maze without being activated, but would become live so to speak when the Third Task was started. If it had no limitation of when it ceased to be a Portkey then it could be activated at any time during the task when touched. This is just my rationalisation of how I think a touch activated portkey could work. I hope it sort of makes some sense.


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  #591  
Old March 19th, 2012, 5:25 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
I think it is possible that both Crouch and Voldemort were unaware that the cup was already a Portkey, to transport the winner outside the maze.

It may have been Dumbledore's little touch, turning the cup into a Portkey, in order to return the winner. If so, there was no reason for him to tell anyone about it except the judges.
I don't see this as possible. Dumbledore was one of the judges, and had no authority to tamper with the competitions without talking to the actual people in charge of the tournament. I think that this would have gotten him in a lot of trouble had it been the case.

And besides, if not using the method of the portkey, how were the Triwizard Tournament facilitators intending to get the winner out of the maze in the first place?


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Old March 19th, 2012, 9:27 pm
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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I don't see this as possible. Dumbledore was one of the judges, and had no authority to tamper with the competitions without talking to the actual people in charge of the tournament. I think that this would have gotten him in a lot of trouble had it been the case.

Personally I don't think Dumbledore seemed to care much about authorities.He made two unofficial Portkeys in OotP. However, I also said that he would have to tell the other judges. Maybe I should have phrased that better to say that if it was Dumbledore's idea he would have only had to consult the other judges, no one else needed to know.
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And besides, if not using the method of the portkey, how were the Triwizard Tournament facilitators intending to get the winner out of the maze in the first place?
Oh I agree it is the easiest way to get the winner out of the maze. Just that not everyone needed to know. Even the contestants weren't told about how they were going to get out.


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  #593  
Old March 20th, 2012, 1:18 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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I don't see this as a problem. As I see it Portkeys are generally timed to activate at a given time. My idea of a touch activated Portkey, is were the Portkey is created and is timed to activate, from say the start of the Third task, but with no time limitation. That would mean that the Triwizard Cup could be carried into the maze without being activated, but would become live so to speak when the Third Task was started. If it had no limitation of when it ceased to be a Portkey then it could be activated at any time during the task when touched. This is just my rationalisation of how I think a touch activated portkey could work. I hope it sort of makes some sense.
Despite the fact that I don't believe there are stand-alone, touch-activated Portkeys (it would have to be combined with the Cup's intrinsic function like the GoF), this is a very interesting theory! So instead of delaying the activation until someone touches it, you're proposing that it's departure is delayed after activation until touched? That's actually quite clever!

Let's explore!

Your theory might possbily take care of Moody not needing to know there was already a Portus charm on the cup since it would be inactive when he took it to the maze. (Though I still think whoever cast the charm would want to inform him in case something happened during set up or if there was a delay for some reason. Come to think of it--since he is taking it to the maze, why wouldn't they just ask him to do it?)

Your theory also might eliminate him being able to remove the charm if he did know, since it might "turn on" too close to the start of the tournament for him to do "expend" the spell and if there was no other way to remove the charm (which seems unlikely to me.) But if he did know and realized he couldn't remove or modify it--I feel certain he would have informed LV.

Here's a possible problem: if it's set up to activate at a certain time, but not to transport until touched--if Crouch/Moody places another Portus charm on it, he'd have to know the timing so the first didn't activate before his did, correct? Or the original might activate first and transport first?

Or if Crouch/Moody places a similar Portus charm (activates then delays transport) it could be possible that both charms could be active at the same time, thus making where Harry ended up simply a guess, since he would not actually be able to let go of the cup in-between destinations and the order in which the charms exectuted might not be predictable. Sounds a bit tricky.

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
And besides, if not using the method of the portkey, how were the Triwizard Tournament facilitators intending to get the winner out of the maze in the first place?
The same way they intended to get the losers out?


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  #594  
Old March 20th, 2012, 1:42 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Despite the fact that I don't believe there are stand-alone, touch-activated Portkeys (it would have to be combined with the Cup's intrinsic function like the GoF)
I know we've covered this before, but I still don't fully understand why there wouldn't or shouldn't be touch Portkeys. It's just, the various instances of Portkeys in the text make it clear to me that they can operate under a variety of different circumstances. To assume that they are all timed requires a rather extensive set of supporting assumptions, and I think they all beg the question precisely because of instances like the Triwizard cup and the Portkey in Dumbledore's office. Since nothing in the text even obliquely suggests that timing is a factor, the only evidence I can think of to say they're timed is to assume that all Porkeys are timed. But as I said, that brings us back to square one, and my original question of why they couldn't be touch activated in the first place. (Especially since it would be a perfectly logical and extremely useful application of the technology.) Can you clarify any of this for me?



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Old March 20th, 2012, 2:33 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Personally I don't think Dumbledore seemed to care much about authorities.He made two unofficial Portkeys in OotP. However, I also said that he would have to tell the other judges. Maybe I should have phrased that better to say that if it was Dumbledore's idea he would have only had to consult the other judges, no one else needed to know.
Fair enough. Dumbledore seems to have a certain disregard for authority at times, for sure, but I don't think that really applies to the Triwizard Tournament, where I thin he had a certain respect for the tournament, the people involved, and the importance to international, wizarding unity. We see the amount of tension created simply by Harry's name emerging from the goblet, and also how much Dumbledore felt his hands were tied by the rules.


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  #596  
Old March 20th, 2012, 3:12 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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I know we've covered this before, but I still don't fully understand why there wouldn't or shouldn't be touch Portkeys. It's just, the various instances of Portkeys in the text make it clear to me that they can operate under a variety of different circumstances. To assume that they are all timed requires a rather extensive set of supporting assumptions, and I think they all beg the question precisely because of instances like the Triwizard cup and the Portkey in Dumbledore's office. Since nothing in the text even obliquely suggests that timing is a factor, the only evidence I can think of to say they're timed is to assume that all Porkeys are timed. But as I said, that brings us back to square one, and my original question of why they couldn't be touch activated in the first place. (Especially since it would be a perfectly logical and extremely useful application of the technology.) Can you clarify any of this for me?
With the exception of the Triwizard Cup (and this seems to be an exception for a reason,) all the Portkeys we see (to the World Cup; to Grimmauld Place; to DD's office; to the Burrow) show travelers touching them well before the time they transport--so how can they be touch-activated? On three of those occasions, someone counts time until they activate--which I interpret as being a timed Portkey. For the other (to the Burrow) someone informs Harry that the Portkey is set to leave in 3 minutes.

Here's Mr. Weasley's explanation to Harry on what a Portkey is:
GoF: The Portkey"They're objects that are used to transport wizards from one spot to another at a prearranged time."
He gives no other deviations on how they operate.

After the Seven Potters, when everyone has to Portkey to the Burrow, three groups miss their Portkeys. If ever there was a time they needed to use touch-activated Portkeys, I think it would have been then (especially since they were located in Order members homes and not somewhere that Muggles could stumble upon them.) But they do not.

Three of the times we see Portkeys in action (to Grimmauld Place; to DD's office; to the Burrow) is after GoF. If JKR wanted to "cover a mistake" in her formulation of how Portkeys work, she could have done so quite easily after the fact in her last books. She did not. I have to consider that there is a reason for that.

I understand, and we have discussed it before, that you have difficulty accepting that DD casts the Portus charm on an old kettle about a page and a half before it activates and yet can still count the last three increments (seconds?) before it transports. But everyone is touching it as he counts, so it is not touch-activated. And I found another example of DD's ability to keep track of time in his head:
GoF: Beauxbatons and Durmstrang"Well, the goblet is almost ready to make its decision," said Dumbledore. "I estimate that it requires one more minute. Now, when the champions' names are called. . . ."
The GoF was activated 24 hours previous, he does not look at a clock or watch and the declaration "one more minute" seems a bit accurate, does it not? It seems to me JKR is trying to indicate DD has an accute sense of timing. imo.

All that said, I actually agree with you! It would seem an extremely useful application of the Portus charm if it could be tweaked in ways to tailor it to different situations. I just don't see that illustrated in the books, so that is what I have to go with. I think that when JKR sets such limits, she is pushing us to dig deeper into what is going on. imo.


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Old March 21st, 2012, 5:48 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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All that said, I actually agree with you! It would seem an extremely useful application of the Portus charm if it could be tweaked in ways to tailor it to different situations. I just don't see that illustrated in the books, so that is what I have to go with. I think that when JKR sets such limits, she is pushing us to dig deeper into what is going on. imo.
I don't see it as something JKR leaves out intentionally with the idea that people will dig deeper. She always seems to leave clues -- although we didn't always see them, they were there.

She has also been straightforward (through Dumbledore, for example) in telling us that there are some things in magic that are complicated and unknown. Which makes me believe that even though we hadn't specifically seen a portkey with a different method (touch), it doesn't mean that it isn't possible. A portkey seems quite a simple thing; the only complication is that the Ministry likes to control their use; but it appears quite easy to make one. We're also told over the series that spells are created/changed over time (along with Potions), so it's easy for me to accept that a portkey spell can be stacked to divert the object from its final destination using touch. The whole timing thing is a control effort by the Ministry.


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  #598  
Old March 21st, 2012, 11:31 pm
Temery  Female.gif Temery is offline
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

first sorry I didn't read all 29 pages of this tread
second sorry I don't recall what happened in the book
BUT in the movie (thanks to the marathon on last weekend) when the whole gang is at the big Quiddich match and the DE's start their badness Mr. Weasley tells them all "No it's not the Irish, it's trouble, we need to get back to the boot quick." (I may not have that exactly but I do remember he said to get back to the boot) indicating that the boot portkey was a 2 way trip, not a 1 way trip, so I just assumed (yes I know what that gets me) that the Trophy was also a 2 way trip portkey hence it returned Harry and Cedric back to Hogwarts.


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  #599  
Old March 22nd, 2012, 12:30 am
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mirrormere  Undisclosed.gif mirrormere is offline
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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I don't see it as something JKR leaves out intentionally with the idea that people will dig deeper.
If there is no other way Portkeys operate, then that information can't be intentionally left out since it doesn't exist. It would be awkward, and rather odd, for someone to say something like “It’s weird that Portkeys are all timed, isn’t it?” How else can JKR show us that Portkeys only work in one way? In my opinion, by only showing Portkeys working in one way. I view the consistency of her Portkey operations as a clue.

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She always seems to leave clues--although we didn't always see them, they were there.
I agree 100%! A recent experience in researching and writing a paper about a subplot involving DD and Snape leads me to believe there might be a lot more going on in the background that JKR doesn’t come right out and tell us about, but leaves many clues pointing to their existence.

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She has also been straightforward (through Dumbledore, for example) in telling us that there are some things in magic that are complicated and unknown.
Although I wouldn't consider DD necessarily straightforward in all instances, I do believe where he informs us about magic, he is telling the truth. There are many parts of magic that are complicated and unknown. But there are many other parts that are simple and quite well known. Basic spells like Stupify, Alohomora, Expelliarmus, etc. fall into the latter category.

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Which makes me believe that even though we hadn't specifically seen a portkey with a different method (touch), it doesn't mean that it isn't possible. A portkey seems quite a simple thing; the only complication is that the Ministry likes to control their use; but it appears quite easy to make one.
I think Portus is a bit more complicated. Apparently one has to think of the departure time and location as the charm is cast and that (plus experience with disastrous results?) might be a reason the Ministry controls it.

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We're also told over the series that spells are created/changed over time (along with Potions), so it's easy for me to accept that a portkey spell can be stacked to divert the object from its final destination using touch. The whole timing thing is a control effort by the Ministry.
I think improvements might be made to some spells and new ones can definitely be created. One of Harry’s Transfiguration homework assignments was "Describe, with examples, the ways in which Transforming Spells must be adapted when performing Cross-Species Switches" (GoF: The Unexpected Task) So clearly it is possible some spells allow adaptation. But I think there are some that are fixed and I think Portus falls into that category. Or JKR would have shown us the variations.

I've been pondering a related matter lately. Doesn't it seem odd that the judges, two of which are heads of other schools and complained bitterly about the incident with the GoF, would let Moody, a Hogwarts professor, take the cup into the maze by himself?


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  #600  
Old March 22nd, 2012, 12:44 am
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Re: Why did the Triwizard Cup return Harry to Hogwarts?

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
I think improvements might be made to some spells and new ones can definitely be created. One of Harry’s Transfiguration homework assignments was "Describe, with examples, the ways in which Transforming Spells must be adapted when performing Cross-Species Switches" (GoF: The Unexpected Task) So clearly it is possible some spells allow adaptation. But I think there are some that are fixed and I think Portus falls into that category. Or JKR would have shown us the variations.

I've been pondering a related matter lately. Doesn't it seem odd that the judges, two of which are heads of other schools and complained bitterly about the incident with the GoF, would let Moody, a Hogwarts professor, take the cup into the maze by himself?
To your last question, I would say not at all. It seems to me that the maze was utilized as a challenge in no small part due to the fact that they had an 'omniscient' professor at their disposal. He was the only one who could actually see his way through the maze.

As for the rest, the Portus spell, as has been pointed out already in this thread, is indeed shown to have a degree of flexibility. We have the QWC portkey, which operates on a strict 'departure time' basis, but we also have Dumbledore's portkey, for which such a basis would have been preposterous, as pointed out by canismajoris. I think that even that small amount of variance in the method prevents us from discounting other such manipulations due to the rigidity of the rules with regards to that particular enchantment..


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