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Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2



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  #801  
Old April 16th, 2012, 5:16 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
If Dumbledore helped McGonagall become an Animagus (see info on Minerva on the Pottermore site)--isn't it possible that he was an Animaus also? He would have to be unregistered since he doesn't appear on Hermione's list that we know of. Flouting Ministry laws wasn't beyond him.

Since there seems to be a correlation between one's patronus and one's Animagus, it would follow that Dumbledore's Animagus would have been a phoenix. Is there a possibility that instances were we thought it was Fawkes, it was actually Dumbledore?

The only place I can think of where that could have happened was in the Chamber of Secrets when "Fawkes" came to save Harry.

If your Animagus is magical, do you take on those magical properties? If the "Fawkes" that came to save Harry was actually Dumbledore, would his tears be able to heal Harry?
I don't think there is necessarily a correlation between one's Animagus and Patronus. Thay could be the same, but only if the animal that represent's one's inner self and whatever best represents what one finds most protective just happen to be the same, in my opinion. The Patronus spell does something significantly different than the Animagus transformation.

The Phoenix is famous for its ability to be reborn from its ashes. Perhaps that is what Dumbledore found protective-- the thought of life after death-- and that's what his Patronus represented.

I don't think Dumbledore ever bothered with an Animagus form. Maybe he would be his namesake, a bumblebee. I don't know. Something that represented something busy, with a finger in every pie. Though I think friendliness and secretiveness were also defining characteristics of Dumbledore. I am at a loss for an animal that matches all those characteristics in popular thought, though.


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  #802  
Old April 16th, 2012, 5:18 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
If Dumbledore helped McGonagall become an Animagus (see info on Minerva on the Pottermore site)--isn't it possible that he was an Animaus also? He would have to be unregistered since he doesn't appear on Hermione's list that we know of. Flouting Ministry laws wasn't beyond him.

Since there seems to be a correlation between one's patronus and one's Animagus, it would follow that Dumbledore's Animagus would have been a phoenix. Is there a possibility that instances were we thought it was Fawkes, it was actually Dumbledore?

The only place I can think of where that could have happened was in the Chamber of Secrets when "Fawkes" came to save Harry.

If your Animagus is magical, do you take on those magical properties? If the "Fawkes" that came to save Harry was actually Dumbledore, would his tears be able to heal Harry?
Albus Dumbledore on “Babbitty Rabbitty and her Cackling Stump”, Tales of Beedle the BardAnimagi do not retain the power of human speech while in their animal form, although they keep all their human thinking and reasoning powers. This, as every schoolchild knows, is the fundamental difference between being an Animagus, and Transfiguring oneself into an animal. In the case of the latter, one would become the animal entirely, with the consequence that one would know no magic, be unaware that one had ever been a wizard, and would need somebody else to Transfigure one back to one’s original form.)


Yes, I believe that, if DD were an animagus, and his animagus form were a phoenix, he would be able to use his tears to heal. I don't think he was Fawkes, though, because people have seen the two of them together. And I did find it interesting that he was the one who taught McGonagall how to become an animagus.


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  #803  
Old April 16th, 2012, 5:25 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
If Dumbledore helped McGonagall become an Animagus (see info on Minerva on the Pottermore site)--isn't it possible that he was an Animaus also? He would have to be unregistered since he doesn't appear on Hermione's list that we know of. Flouting Ministry laws wasn't beyond him.

Since there seems to be a correlation between one's patronus and one's Animagus, it would follow that Dumbledore's Animagus would have been a phoenix. Is there a possibility that instances were we thought it was Fawkes, it was actually Dumbledore?

The only place I can think of where that could have happened was in the Chamber of Secrets when "Fawkes" came to save Harry.

If your Animagus is magical, do you take on those magical properties? If the "Fawkes" that came to save Harry was actually Dumbledore, would his tears be able to heal Harry?
This is a really interesting theory because, as far as we are shown, all animagus forms are of real animals (house cats, dogs, rats, deer, weasles, lynxes, otters, hares), not mythical or magical ones like a phoenix so we have no documented evidence of an animagus having any powers their animal form would have because no one (other than potentially Dumbledore) has a magical animal as their animagus form.


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  #804  
Old April 16th, 2012, 8:19 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I don't think there is necessarily a correlation between one's Animagus and Patronus.
I suppose it is possible that one could have one animal as Animagus and another as a Patronus. But the few examples we do have show them being the same.

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
I don't think Dumbledore ever bothered with an Animagus form. Maybe he would be his namesake, a bumblebee. I don't know. Something that represented something busy, with a finger in every pie. Though I think friendliness and secretiveness were also defining characteristics of Dumbledore. I am at a loss for an animal that matches all those characteristics in popular thought, though.
Dumbledore was friendly and secretive--and kept to himself most often, despite the friendliness. From the wand core descriptions on Pottermore, "independent and detached" is the description of phoenixes. That fits Dumbldore to a large degree. And Fawkes seem fairly friendly to those who like DD.

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
Yes, I believe that, if DD were an animagus, and his animagus form were a phoenix, he would be able to use his tears to heal. I don't think he was Fawkes, though, because people have seen the two of them together.
No, I don't think he was Fawkes either. Most of the times when we see Fawkes, he is in Dumbledore's presence.

But the instance in the Chamber of Secrets when Fawkes comes to save Harry:

1) Fawkes behaves quite a bit as Dumbledore would--and a bit too human, imo
2) Riddle chases the bird away after it heals Harry and later Harry finds Fawkes waiting for him at the entrance to the Chamber. This would be a perfect opportunity for DD to replace himself with the real Fawkes.

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Originally Posted by MerryLore View Post
And I did find it interesting that he was the one who taught McGonagall how to become an animagus.
That's very curious, isn't it? The Marauders learned on their own, with Wormtail getting extra help from James. But James could only help because he had figured it out himself first. If DD taught Minerva to do it, he would have had to have known how.

And there's this interesting quote, emphasis mine:
SS: The Man With Two Faces“You got there? You got Hermione’s owl?”

“We must have crossed in midair. No sooner had I reached London than it became clear to me that the place I should be was the one I had just left.
Now DD could have been on a broom (how uncomfortable would that be?) or maybe he was flying as a phoenix Animagus. And what better cover for your Animagus than having your own pet phoenix? Everytime someone saw a phoenix flying over Hogwarts, they would just assume it was Fawkes.

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
This is a really interesting theory because, as far as we are shown, all animagus forms are of real animals (house cats, dogs, rats, deer, weasles, lynxes, otters, hares), not mythical or magical ones like a phoenix so we have no documented evidence of an animagus having any powers their animal form would have because no one (other than potentially Dumbledore) has a magical animal as their animagus form.
Maybe as Pottermore expands we will learn if there Animagi can take the form of magical creatures.


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  #805  
Old April 16th, 2012, 8:47 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Since there seems to be a correlation between one's patronus and one's Animagus, it would follow that Dumbledore's Animagus would have been a phoenix. Is there a possibility that instances were we thought it was Fawkes, it was actually Dumbledore?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
No, I don't think he was Fawkes either. Most of the times when we see Fawkes, he is in Dumbledore's presence.

But the instance in the Chamber of Secrets when Fawkes comes to save Harry:

1) Fawkes behaves quite a bit as Dumbledore would--and a bit too human, imo
2) Riddle chases the bird away after it heals Harry and later Harry finds Fawkes waiting for him at the entrance to the Chamber. This would be a perfect opportunity for DD to replace himself with the real Fawkes.
I don't think this is likely. We see Fawkes lead Harry, Ron, Ginny and Lockhart to McGonagall's office where Dumbledore was.

CoS, The Heir of Slytherin and Dobby's RewardFawkes was leading the way, glowing gold along the corridor. They strode after him, and moments later, found themselves ouside Professor McGonagall's office.
Harry knocked and pushed the door open.
<snip>
Fawkes went whooshing past Harry's ear and settled on Dumbldore's shoulder, just as Harry found himself and Ron being swept into Mrs Weasley's tight embrace.


If Dumbledore could become a phoenix animagus and did so within the story, then I think we would have been told as much.


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  #806  
Old April 16th, 2012, 9:26 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I don't think this is likely. We see Fawkes lead Harry, Ron, Ginny and Lockhart to McGonagall's office where Dumbledore was.
Technically, it is possible. The last we see of Fawkes in the Chamber is:
CoS: The Heir of SlytherinThen, in a rush of wings, Fawkes had soared back overhead and something fell into Harry’s lap — the diary.
Then: Harry stabs the diary; Riddlemort dies, Harry tends to Ginny; they discuss a few things; they head back to where:
CoS: The Heir of SlytherinFawkes was waiting for them, hovering in the Chamber entrance.
Then they climb through the rock fall and Fawkes takes them back up the pipe and leads them to DD, who is in Minerva’s office.

While “Fawkes” is waiting in the Chamber entrance, DD could have pulled the old switheroo--no one around to see.

Note to TreacleTartlet: just positing some possibilities and using my imagination. I think this would actually contradict my other theory we’ve been discussing on the Triwizard Cup thread.

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If Dumbledore could become a phoenix animagus and did so within the story, then I think we would have been told as much.
With the revealtion on Pottermore of all JKR's "ghost plots", all bets are off!


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  #807  
Old April 16th, 2012, 11:23 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

I don't see a reason for Dumbledore wanting to be one in the first place unless he knew beforehand that he would be some exotic creature. Being an Animagus offered him no advantage that he couldn't already do.


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Old April 17th, 2012, 12:36 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I don't see a reason for Dumbledore wanting to be one in the first place unless he knew beforehand that he would be some exotic creature. Being an Animagus offered him no advantage that he couldn't already do.
But what advantage would it afford Minerva? What benefit does she gain for becoming an Animagus? How does DD teach Minerva if he doesn't know how?

And I would so prefer flying to London vs. riding a broom.


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  #809  
Old April 17th, 2012, 12:58 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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But what advantage would it afford Minerva? What benefit does she gain for becoming an Animagus?
footnotes from Tales of Beedle the Bard 14 [Professor McGonagall, Headmisrress of Hogwarts, has asked me to make clear that she became an Animagus merely as a result of her extensive researches into all fields of Transfiguration, and that she has never used the ability to turn into a tabby cat for any surreptitious purpose, setting aside legitimate business on behalf of the Order of the Phoenix where secrecy and concealment were imperative. JKR]


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How does DD teach Minerva if he doesn't know how?
And I would so prefer flying to London vs. riding a broom.
I think these are excellent questions. Nowhere does DD say he isn't an animagus in the Tales of Beedle the Bard book, and the reason I bring this up is that he also wrote about the Invisibility Cloak:

Albus Dumbledore on “The Tale of the Three Brothers” in Tales of Beedle the Bard Their theory (or perhaps “desperate hope” might be a more accurate term) is supported by little actual evidence. True Invisibility Cloaks, though rare, exist in this world of ours; however, the story makes it clear that Death’s Cloak is of a uniquely durable nature.21 Through all the centuries that have intervened between Beedle’s day and our own, nobody has ever claimed to have found Death’s Cloak. This is explained away by true believers thus: either the third brother’s descendants do not know where their Cloak came from, or they know and are determined to show their ancestor’s wisdom by not trumpeting the fact.

Naturally enough, the stone has never been found, either.


We know he knew about the cloak, and later found the stone.

Introduction to Tales of Beedle the Bard It seems only right to make one small, additional comment on Professor Dumbledore’s notes. As far as we can tell, the notes were completed around eighteen months before the tragic events that took place at the top of Hogwarts’ Astronomy Tower. Those familiar with the history of the most recent wizarding war (everyone who has read all seven volumes on the life of Harry Potter, for instance) will be aware that Professor Dumbledore reveals a little less than he knows – or suspects –about the final story in this book. The reason for any omission lies, perhaps, in what Dumbledore said about truth, many years ago, to his favourite and most famous pupil:

“It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution.”


I think it's possible he could have been an animagus but told very few people. To me, it seems within his character.

And if i could turn into a bird, or even ride a thestral, I'd pick those over a broom as well.


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  #810  
Old April 17th, 2012, 1:01 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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But what advantage would it afford Minerva? What benefit does she gain for becoming an Animagus?
McGonagall uses her animagus form in PS/SS to sit on Privet Drive all day waiting for Dumbledore to deliver Harry to the Dursleys without raising questions about why some strange woman is lurking around Privet Drive.

Sirius uses his form to sneak in and out of Hogwarts in POA undetected and unrecognized, in addition to keeping Lupin company in their time at Hogwarts though I suspect he probably used his form back then to get into mischief without fear of such mischief being pinned on him.

Peter uses his animagus for to hide out for 12 years.

Rita uses her animagus form to spy on people and gets primo scoops for her Prophet articles.

The question to me isn't really what would the good of Dumbledore becoming an animagus be so much as what good is becoming such a flaboyant animal when you'll stick out like a sore thumb everywhere you go?

And, with the uses the people above put their animagus forms to, I'd be real suspicious of anyone I found out is an animagus.


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Old April 17th, 2012, 1:13 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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The question to me isn't really what would the good of Dumbledore becoming an animagus be so much as what good is becoming such a flaboyant animal when you'll stick out like a sore thumb everywhere you go?
He wouldn't be able to use it to conceal himself or blend in, but healing tears come in handy, and it would be fun to fly around Hogwarts on occasion.

I don't know if he were an animagus or not, but he seems to me like the type who wanted every advantage he could get.

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And, with the uses the people above put their animagus forms to, I'd be real suspicious of anyone I found out is an animagus.
I agree. I think this is why the MoM expected animagi to register themselves, and McGonagall did.


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Old April 17th, 2012, 6:07 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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The question to me isn't really what would the good of Dumbledore becoming an animagus be so much as what good is becoming such a flaboyant animal when you'll stick out like a sore thumb everywhere you go?
I agree. Dumbledore can make himself invisible without a cloak, after all.


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  #813  
Old April 17th, 2012, 7:40 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
How does DD teach Minerva if he doesn't know how?
She was only guided by him. I don't think he himself needed to be an Animagus to be able to give McGonagall some pointers.

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And I would so prefer flying to London vs. riding a broom.
He took a thestral most likely. In any case, Dumbledore seemed to prefer apparating than flying.


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Old April 17th, 2012, 10:22 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Technically, it is possible. The last we see of Fawkes in the Chamber is:
CoS: The Heir of SlytherinThen, in a rush of wings, Fawkes had soared back overhead and something fell into Harry’s lap — the diary.
Then: Harry stabs the diary; Riddlemort dies, Harry tends to Ginny; they discuss a few things; they head back to where:
CoS: The Heir of SlytherinFawkes was waiting for them, hovering in the Chamber entrance.
Then they climb through the rock fall and Fawkes takes them back up the pipe and leads them to DD, who is in Minerva’s office.

While “Fawkes” is waiting in the Chamber entrance, DD could have pulled the old switheroo--no one around to see.
Personally I don't see a need for this scenario, as Fawkes is a magical and intelligent bird in his own right.

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Note to TreacleTartlet: just positing some possibilities and using my imagination. I think this would actually contradict my other theory we’ve been discussing on the Triwizard Cup thread.


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And I would so prefer flying to London vs. riding a broom.
Hagrid tells us in OotP that Dumbledore uses Thestrals when he doesn't want to apparate. If he could turn into a phoenix and fly himself, I don't think he would bother using the Thestrals.


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  #815  
Old April 17th, 2012, 7:46 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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I think it's possible he could have been an animagus but told very few people. To me, it seems within his character.

And if i could turn into a bird, or even ride a thestral, I'd pick those over a broom as well.
I completely agree it's within DD's character to keep something like that hidden, and the examples shown underscore that tendency in him.

Transfiguring into a phoenix and flying myself would be such a thrill!

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
McGonagall uses her animagus form in PS/SS to sit on Privet Drive all day waiting for Dumbledore to deliver Harry to the Dursleys without raising questions about why some strange woman is lurking around Privet Drive....
I'm not questioning the usefulness of being an Animagus, I'm just pointing out that if Minerva found it helpful as Transfiguration professor, then Albus, as her predecessor, would have found it equally as useful.

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
The question to me isn't really what would the good of Dumbledore becoming an animagus be so much as what good is becoming such a flaboyant animal when you'll stick out like a sore thumb everywhere you go?
As pointed out previously, having a pet phoenix that everyone knows about would certainly maintain his cover as an Animagus. Even Riddlemort recognized the phoenix as "Dumbledore's bird." (Fawkes has been with him a long time. How that companionship began would be another interesting story.)

And if his Animagus has all the powers of a phoenix, then he could teleport in and out of Hogwarts whenever he liked. That could be quite handy.

And I wonder why Fawkes couldn't heal DD's hand.


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Old April 17th, 2012, 9:14 pm
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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And I wonder why Fawkes couldn't heal DD's hand.
Hey, whoa, wait a minute!! I think you're on to something here! Plot hole???

Excellently spotted.


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Old April 18th, 2012, 12:18 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Hey, whoa, wait a minute!! I think you're on to something here! Plot hole???

Excellently spotted.
Not sure (as usual!) Snape says it's a curse that would eventually spread and strengthen over time. Perhaps that was something phoenix tears couldn't heal.

Here's another thought--if DD was a phoenix Animagus and as such has the same powers as phoenixes, could he have turned into a phoenix right before his mortal death and then regenerated when he died? All sorts of possibilities!


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Old April 18th, 2012, 12:54 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
Not sure (as usual!) Snape says it's a curse that would eventually spread and strengthen over time. Perhaps that was something phoenix tears couldn't heal.
All we're told is that phoenix tears have "healing powers" - it healed Harry both of the basilisk venom which was spread through his body and the outward wounds inflicted when his arm was impaled on the basilisk tooth, why couldn't it heal Dumbledore's hand or at least stop the curse from spreading? It's a fair question.

If the curse was trapped in his hand, why not amputate the hand and get a silver glove like Peter Pettigrew or Anakin Skywalker? ()

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Here's another thought--if DD was a phoenix Animagus and as such has the same powers as phoenixes, could he have turned into a phoenix right before his mortal death and then regenerated when he died? All sorts of possibilities!
I don't know about that since they went and retrieved a body and not an urn full of Dumblyash that will one day regenerate into Dumbledore. Harry, too, watched Dumbledore fall from the tower after he had been struck with the curse that killed him and I think he would have had to have taken the brunt of the curse as a phoenix in order to regenerate and come back, as Fawkes swallows the curse and then died in whatever book that happened in.


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Old April 18th, 2012, 1:24 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet View Post
Hagrid tells us in OotP that Dumbledore uses Thestrals when he doesn't want to apparate. If he could turn into a phoenix and fly himself, I don't think he would bother using the Thestrals.
Oh I don't know. If he flew as an animagus all the way to London he'd arrive pretty tired but if he used a Thestral he'd arrive fresh as a daisy!
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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
All we're told is that phoenix tears have "healing powers" - it healed Harry both of the basilisk venom which was spread through his body and the outward wounds inflicted when his arm was impaled on the basilisk tooth, why couldn't it heal Dumbledore's hand or at least stop the curse from spreading? It's a fair question.
Curses seem to be a different thing from other injuries. George's ear couldn't be restored because it had been cursed off (although I admit Fawkes wasn't around at the time). Katie's injuries from the necklace didn't seem to be suitable for Fawkes to heal or I'm sure Dumbledore would have asked him to, and saved Katie a long spell in St Mungo's. So I think Fawkes couldn't have healed Dumbledore's hand because it was a curse injury.


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Old April 18th, 2012, 2:39 am
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Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
If the curse was trapped in his hand, why not amputate the hand and get a silver glove like Peter Pettigrew or Anakin Skywalker? ()
I have often wondered that myself. Perhaps Severus could only contain the damage the curse caused to his hand, but the actual curse had spread throughout? Snape mentions that he might have been able to give DD more time if he had come to him sooner.

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio View Post
I don't know about that since they went and retrieved a body and not an urn full of Dumblyash that will one day regenerate into Dumbledore. Harry, too, watched Dumbledore fall from the tower after he had been struck with the curse that killed him and I think he would have had to have taken the brunt of the curse as a phoenix in order to regenerate and come back, as Fawkes swallows the curse and then died in whatever book that happened in.
I was thinking specifically about the curse. Since Malfoy had disarmed DD just previous to Snape's AK, he would not have been able to transform at that point.

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Originally Posted by horcrux4 View Post
Curses seem to be a different thing from other injuries. George's ear couldn't be restored because it had been cursed off (although I admit Fawkes wasn't around at the time). Katie's injuries from the necklace didn't seem to be suitable for Fawkes to heal or I'm sure Dumbledore would have asked him to, and saved Katie a long spell in St Mungo's. So I think Fawkes couldn't have healed Dumbledore's hand because it was a curse injury.
Snape was able to heal Malfoy from wounds caused by Sectumsempra, and I think he would have been able to reattach George's ear--but then no one else thought it possible except Harry because he had seen it done.

But I agree that there are indications that Fawkes' healing powers might have been limited when it came to curses.


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