Kreacher the house elf: Character analysis

[The_Green_Woods]

I think sneaky and evil acts are explained by Hermione in Kreacher's tale.

DH - Kreacher's Tale 'I don't understand you Kreacher,' he said finally. 'Voldemort tried to kill you. Regulus died to bring Voldemort down, but you were still happy to betray Sirius to Voldemort? You were happy to go to Bellatrix and Narcissa, and pass information to Voldemort through them ....' 'Harry, Kreacher doesn't think like that,' said Hermione, wiping her eyes dry on the back of her hand. 'He's a slave, house elves are used to bad, even brutal treatment; what Voldemort did to Kreacher wasn't that far out of the common way. What do wars mean to an elf like Kreacher? He's loyal to people who are kind to him, and Mrs Black must have been, and Regulus certainly was, so he served them willingly and parroted their beliefs. I know what you're going to say', she went on as Harry began to protest, 'that Regulus changed his mind ... but he doesn't seem to have explained that to Kreacher, doesn't he? And I think I know why. Kreacher and Regulus' family were all safer if they kept to the old pure-blood line. Regulus was trying to protect them all.'

[Nandi]

I think Kreacher did the same thing as Dobby did but as Sirius was on the good side we consider it treachery and as the Malfoys belonged to Voldemorts camp we consider Dobby's actions bravery but in fact both house-elves repaid both Masters for their actions. Had Sirius been kinder to Kreacher he might have lived a little longer but probably would have died in the Battle at Hogwarts.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by Arithmancer

And I would consider Sirius's dealings with Kreacher "abuse". Not because he yelled at the guy or anything like that, but because, as a Pureblood wizard of the upper class and Kreacher's sole master, he was well aware of the conditions of House Elf enslavement, and did not take any steps to ameliorate their effect on Kreacher. If he was not going to free him, this was the least, in my opinion, that he ought to have done.

What sort of amazed me in OotP, and one reason I didn't like Sirius at all, was that he kept complaining that Kreacher hadn't been cleaning enough.

Now let's think about that. The house has been empty for eleven or more years by the time we see it in OotP. Kreacher thought Sirius was gone forever. He is about 100 or more years old and he's depressed. What motivation or reason did he have to keep the house squeaky clean?

Kreacher has been trapped alone with only paintings and memories, so he's been trapped just as Sirius has been trapped in Azkaban, yet Sirius is the person who yells at him and makes light of his grief. Sirius also tries to take away the few objects that give Kreacher comfort (pardon the pun, LOL). That just seemed unkind, when Kreacher was all ready living under a boiler in a pile of rags.

At first Kreacher didn't like Harry either, but kindness won him over. I think the quote from The Green Woods is important because Harry says "I don't understand you, Kreacher." Right - Harry admits that he doesn't understand Kreacher's point of view and circumstances, but he's willing to try. And that's the big difference between Harry and Sirius, imo.

Once Harry understands Kreacher, he forgives him. He also allows Kreacher to redeem himself by hunting down Mundungus and the horcrux, and fighting in the Battle of Hogwarts.

In my opinion, the message of these books is redemption through good acts and remorse, even if someone is written off by everyone else in society. Voldemort was given the same chance for remorse, but he didn't take it, while Kreacher did, and that's the difference between them.

[The_Green_Woods]

Excellent post SIP!

Originally Posted by Nandi

I think Kreacher did the same thing as Dobby did but as Sirius was on the good side we consider it treachery and as the Malfoys belonged to Voldemorts camp we consider Dobby's actions bravery but in fact both house-elves repaid both Masters for their actions. Had Sirius been kinder to Kreacher he might have lived a little longer but probably would have died in the Battle at Hogwarts.

Not only in Sirius' case, but I do think characters are seen as good and evil at times just because they either fought against Voldemort or for him. If someone was fighting for the Order and Voldemort his actions are seen in a different light than a person who did not IMO.

[eliza101]

I like Kreacher and I also saw a parallel between his behavior and Dobby's. I just didn't think Sirius' treatment of him was that bad, physically. I think Sirius probably ignored him, but benign neglect is still neglect.
But the comparison to Dobby made do some thinking. We see 4 house-elves in the series as distinct characters. Kreacher, Dobby, Winky, and Hokey the house-elf of Hepzibah Smith. These elves are all loyal to their masters, but Dobby is an unwilling slave.
Even Kreacher, though he is unwilling to Sirius is loyal to the House of Black. But they all have a certain degree of autonomy. They speak with their masters and they find ways around their masters wishes. It just made me wonder just how much influence the magical enchantments had on them and how good the various elves were at defiance.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Right - Harry admits that he doesn't understand Kreacher's point of view and circumstances, but he's willing to try. And that's the big difference between Harry and Sirius, imo.

Harry, in my view, does not have a lot of emotional baggage when it comes to Kreacher. Sirius does. He grew up with Kreacher doing his mother's bidding and voicing her opinions. Kreacher represents everything he hates about his family. Harry, on the other hand, has no such memories.

I cannot agree about Kreacher suffering to the same extent as Sirius did in Azkaban. #12GP was Kreacher's home, a safe place. He may have felt abandoned and alone but he was not imprisoned with creatures that sucked all happiness out of him. In my view, this is a big difference.

[The_Green_Woods]

I never thought too much of Kreacher suffering to the extent he must have. But, reading through the chapter again and thinking about it now, I do feel that as a slave and one who could not fulfil his Master's last request, Kreacher's life must have been one endless round of trying to destroy the locket and punishing himself because he could not. He must have felt he had failed Regulus in all ways and must have punished himself endlessly.
==============
The strange thing was that Regulus must have known or suspected that Sirius was with James and in the Order; if he did not know that; he certainly knew Sirius was not with Voldemort and yet Regulus felt he could send Kreacher to Sirius for help, with what was a horcrux. I wonder why? Did he suspect Sirius would not listen to the elf and would kick him out?

DH - Kreacher's Tale 'Nothing Kreacher did made any mark upon it,' moaned the elf. 'Kreacher tried everything, everything he knew, but nothing, nothing would work ... so many powerful spells upon the casing, Kreacher was sure the way to destroy it was to get inside it, but it would not open ... Kreacher punished himself , he tried again, he punished himself, he tried again. Kreacher failed to obey orders, Kreacher could not destroy the locket! And his mistress was mad with grief, because Master Regulus had disappeared, and Kreacher could not tell her what had happened, no, because Master Regulus had forbidden him to tell any of the f - f- family what happened in the c- cave...'

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by arithmancer

I believe Kreacher is motivated by personal loyalty, primarily to Regulus. His parroting of the Pureblood ideology is therefore, in my view, a consequence of that personal loyalty, as is his loyalty to the remnants of Regulus's family who seemed to share those views (Bella, Cissy, Draco). And his lightning change from that view to the 180 degree opposite view is therefore quite natural in light of the revelations Kreacher received in "Kreacher's Tale". The Mudbloods and blood traitors are actually trying to do the same thing Regulus died trying to do? Great, Kreacher is all for them now, and will call them whatever they prefer.

Your take on Kreacher is a lot more generous and nuanced than my initial one. Thanks, Zara, that was very persuasive. Personal loyalty is so very big with House-Elves.

With one rather large difference - Gollum never rallied a band of Sauron's victims to fight with the Free Peoples in the Final Battle.

True.

Erm...I guess it is obvious I love Kreacher and his DH storyline.

Oh, I like it too. I did love his conversion!

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

To me, he is as evil as any dark character in the book (in terms of good and evil as provided - and again, far, far worse than Voldemort, who was at least above board in his evilness).

How is Kreacher, at his worst, worse than Voldemort? Voldemort is a mass murderer. I don't see how being 'at least above board in one's evilness' make it any more acceptable: I hardly imagine that Voldemort's lack of ambiguity about his evil intentions made Harry feel better about the murder of his parents ...

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by Moriath

He may have felt abandoned and alone but he was not imprisoned with creatures that sucked all happiness out of him. In my view, this is a big difference.

DH, "Kreacher's Tale" "Kreacher tried everything, everything he knew, but nothing, nothing would work...Kreacher punished himself, he tried again, he punished himself, he tried again. Kreacher failed to obey orders, Kreacher could not destroy the locket! And his Mistress was mad with grief, because Master Regulus had disappeared, and Kreacher could not tell her what had happened, no, because Master Regulus had f-f-forbidden hin to tell any of the f-f-family what happened in the c-cave...." Kreacher began to sob so hard that there were no more coherent words.

"Living alone and feeling abandoned" does not begin to describe Kreacher's life. This is what the Trio, and possibly Sirius and others, surmised was the condition of Kreacher's life which explained his behavior in OotP. But the quote above reveals things were different, and IMO, a lot worse. According to the passage cited (and Kreacher was certainly not lying to his master...) he was living with a person he loved, who was going mad with grief but he was not allowed to tell her what he knows about the matter, until she died, so that he might consider he contributed to that. And the magic which makes House Elves slaves forced him to torture himself over and over again. I find this really horrible to contemplate, myself.

[UselessCharmMaster]

Originally Posted by Moriath

Harry, in my view, does not have a lot of emotional baggage when it comes to Kreacher. Sirius does. He grew up with Kreacher doing his mother's bidding and voicing her opinions. Kreacher represents everything he hates about his family. Harry, on the other hand, has no such memories.

Yes, I agree, but in DH, when Harry shows his kndness to Kreacher, he could actually see him as responsible of Sirius' death. Harry does not, which is, in my opinion, a very great thing.

[StarryVeil]

Thought I'd post my two cents here.

Kreacher’s storyline is the one that leaves me with the most conflicted feelings. On one hand, he garners sympathy as all house-elves do. On the other, he has earned my eternal disgust for sending Sirius to his death and never paying the consequences. Because of the latter, I just cannot bring myself to sympathize with him and love him as much as I do, say, Dobby.

One reason I have a problem with the forgiveness that Kreacher earned is that there does seem to be moral standards similar to human beings’ among house elves. Dobby is shown to have a conscience similar to humans – he can judge for himself that the Malfoys are up to no good, despite having been in their service for all his life; he can break free of the Malfoys’ beliefs and have his own wish to save Harry, the universally acknowledged “good guy”; he despises the Malfoys but never takes any pleasure in harming them; nor does ever try to find a way to finish the Malfoys. Maltreated house elves, in other words, can have principles and moral values – killing is not good, practicing Dark Magic is not good – similar to human beings. Then why is it that the absence of such values in Kreacher can be excused and explained away as “living under oppression” and “parroting his Masters’ beliefs” and “craving kindness”? IMO, murder (or conspiracy to murder) in cold blood is just that, no matter who does it. If he can have, as DD words it, “feelings as acute as a human beings’”, then he should also have morals similar to humans. And if he doesn’t, then…well, he isn’t a good elf. I’m unable to say “Kreacher conspired to commit a murder - but he’s a slave, so it’s OK!”

Furthermore, his lack of remorse for sending Sirius to his death is appalling, IMO. He laughs while telling Dumbledore about how’d tricked Harry and Sirius and, in later books, after his “transformation”, never expresses a single word of regret for his previous actions. If house elves were simply presented as robots who were hardwired to do nothing more or less than they were bid to do by their masters, I could forgive Kreacher. However, the fact that house elves do have a will of their own and feelings and morals just like human beings, prevents me from sympathizing with him.

In the end, when Harry actively creates a positive relationship with Kreacher, I somehow felt like he was insulting Sirius’ memory. I am not saying that Harry should have punished him – Harry is above such vindictiveness and I would’ve lost respect for him, had he sought Kreacher out just to harm him. However, I felt like Harry should’ve maintained a relationship like he did with Draco after the war - I don’t hate you, but I don’t like you either. It is beyond me how Harry could happily form a positive bond with the creature that had sent one of Harry’s loved ones to his death. This was overkill on JKR’s part, I think. Or maybe I’m just not as big-hearted as Harry.

Having said all that, there is also a part of me that feels sorry for Kreacher. He was a slave who’d spent his life with a bordering-on-deranged family and, following Mrs. Black’s death, was incarcerated in the gloom of No. 12 Grimmauld Place (although, he could have left if he’d had the will to). My greatest moment of sympathy for him would be when Voldemort uses him to drink the potion in the cave. That was one moment in which I actually, fully felt a deep loathing for Voldemort. But beyond that, I cannot feel sorry for Kreacher.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

Kreacher’s storyline is the one that leaves me with the most conflicted feelings. On one hand, he garners sympathy as all house-elves do. On the other, he has earned my eternal disgust for sending Sirius to his death and never paying the consequences. Because of the latter, I just cannot bring myself to sympathize with him and love him as much as I do, say, Dobby.

Let me begin with the most stunning revelation from your above statement: there was a time when anybody loved Dobby? I'm teasing... I have always found him annoying and bothersome but to each their own.

One reason I have a problem with the forgiveness that Kreacher earned is that there does seem to be moral standards similar to human beings’ among house elves. Dobby is shown to have a conscience similar to humans – he can judge for himself that the Malfoys are up to no good, despite having been in their service for all his life;
...
Then why is it that the absence of such values in Kreacher can be excused and explained away as “living under oppression” and “parroting his Masters’ beliefs” and “craving kindness”?

While I should point out that I'm not making excuses for Kreacher's so-called lack of remorse for causing Sirius's death or sending him to his death.

The main difference between Dobby and Kreacher is that Dobby was never forced to drink a potion that would basically send him off the deep end. I think it's important to remember that we don't fully understand the extent of the damage done to Kreacher when he was forced to take the potion in the cave. Dumbledore was nearly driven to madness and died shortly after so we don't have very much clear cut evidence that Kreacher was really with it. The potion didn't seem to affect his memory, as he is clearly able to recall events that happened nearly 20 years before, but the potion could have affected the moral center of his brain which would be the part of Kreacher telling him it was wrong to send his master to his death and could contribute to the fact that he felt no remorse afterwards for his actions.

Now the following statements are kind of in defence of Kreacher:

From what we know, Sirius was horrible to Kreacher. At best he was neglectful, at worst he was outright abusive. I think the truth of the matter lies somewhere between those points. Now, was Sirius horrible enough to Kreacher that Kreacher felt warranted in sending Sirius to his death in order to end the torment? Possibly; we're not shown for certain the extent of Sirius's bad treatment of Kreacher. I personally feel like many fans like Sirius so much that they assume all he did was call Kreacher some bad names on occassion and sort of give Sirius a pass and try to forget that he could be a horrible person at all but Kreacher might have been in a truly terrible situation with regards to Sirius and, with his mental impairment affecting his judgement, Kreacher might have thought that sending Sirius to his death was the right and moral thing to do in order to relieve himself of a tormenter.

There are two sides to every story and while Kreacher, by our moral standards, certainly didn't do the right thing, neither did Sirius. I, personally, feel more empathy for Kreacher than I do Sirius; if it had been Bellatrix who had been treating Kreacher badly and he had sent Bellatrix to her death we'd all be cheering Kreacher for doing a great deed for the Order but because Sirius is a "good guy" or on the "good side" most fans condemn him.

[StarryVeil]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

Let me begin with the most stunning revelation from your above statement: there was a time when anybody loved Dobby? I'm teasing... I have always found him annoying and bothersome but to each their own.

Aww, Dobby’s adorable! I admit his methods of execution may be ill-advised, but his heart’s sure in the right place.

The main difference between Dobby and Kreacher is that Dobby was never forced to drink a potion that would basically send him off the deep end. I think it's important to remember that we don't fully understand the extent of the damage done to Kreacher when he was forced to take the potion in the cave. Dumbledore was nearly driven to madness and died shortly after so we don't have very much clear cut evidence that Kreacher was really with it.

I never really thought the potion would inflict any permanent damage, or at least, damage that would last over two decades. Dumbledore soon snapped out of it and didn’t show any signs of mental damage afterwards – to the contrary, in fact. Of course, it may be argued that the potion would have affected house elves more than humans but I have reason to believe that Kreacher was always as batty as we see him to be. I think that if there had been a time when Kreacher was not so batty, Sirius would have noticed it and remarked on it after returning to Grimmauld Place. His comments seem to suggest, however, that Kreacher had always been the way he is OoTP. So, I don’t think that that single incident of drinking the potion is enough to say that Kreacher and Dobby cannot be judged by the same standards.

From what we know, Sirius was horrible to Kreacher.

But was it undeservedly so? Wasn’t Kreacher horrible back to Sirius? Hadn’t Sirius himself been through multiple traumas that had resulted in profound depression? If Sirius hadn’t spent twelve years in Azkaban undeservedly, and the past year living off rats, I would certainly have condemned Sirius for his actions toward Kreacher, period. He should, then, have been much more considerate of this creature who was under his employ. Yet, considering everything Sirius had been through, Kreacher’s presence was just a constant pounding on Sirius of all the unhappiness he’d faced and thought he’d escaped. And that was exactly what he did not need at that point. If, as DD said, Kreacher’s feelings were “as acute a human being’s”, then perhaps he could have been as considerate of Sirius as Sirius is expected to be of him? If Kreacher can be considered as a “trapped” entity, isn’t Sirius the same?

I personally feel like Kreacher gets it easy both ways – he is not expected to be nice to Sirius because he’s the “underdog” or the “lesser” being in that relationship; yet, he can be human enough and intelligent enough to look for loopholes in his orders, to laugh at his clever downing of a “foe”, and join the right side of the war and redeem himself. He is, in short, applauded and forgiven for making an independent decision that we deem “correct” yet he is cut a lot of slack for his behavior to Sirius because, there, he’s the “underdog”. It’s perfectly normal for him to feel grief and loyalty, but it’s ok if he doesn’t feel compassion or have any comprehension of others’ feelings. Leaves no room for him to pay for his mistakes, really.

Now, was Sirius horrible enough to Kreacher that Kreacher felt warranted in sending Sirius to his death in order to end the torment?

I absolutely don’t think so. I’m not saying Sirius was a great master to Kreacher – the fact that he yells at him and makes snarky comments about him (as far as we see on page) proves that. However, if you’re suggesting that Sirius was physically abusing Kreacher off-page, I have to disagree. Sirius does not come off as the type to raise his hand when he’s angry (and I'm not counting the rage he was in in PoA while he was trying to find Peter). I feel it would be very off-character.

I, personally, feel more empathy for Kreacher than I do Sirius; if it had been Bellatrix who had been treating Kreacher badly and he had sent Bellatrix to her death we'd all be cheering Kreacher for doing a great deed for the Order but because Sirius is a "good guy" or on the "good side" most fans condemn him.

But is Bellatrix’s treatment of “inferior” creatures comparable to Sirius’s treatment of Kreacher? Is Sirius’s treatment of Kreacher comparable to the ways in which all Death Eaters treat “inferior” creatures? Does Sirius ever casually slit open Kreacher’s cheek? Or AK him just ‘cause he jumped out at Sirius too suddenly? There is a reason why Sirius is labeled a “good guy” – because he is so. He doesn’t cross the line and move into “cruel” territory. He was just a product of his horrendous circumstances and so was Kreacher. It just so happened that their circumstances didn’t mix well. And that is completely understandable. What I don’t understand is the higher standards to which Sirius is held while, at the same time, there is emphasis on how similar Kreacher – and house elves, in general – are to human beings, both, emotionally and intellectually.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

I absolutely don’t think so. I’m not saying Sirius was a great master to Kreacher – the fact that he yells at him and makes snarky comments about him (as far as we see on page) proves that. However, if you’re suggesting that Sirius was physically abusing Kreacher off-page, I have to disagree. Sirius does not come off as the type to raise his hand when he’s angry (and I'm not counting the rage he was in in PoA while he was trying to find Peter). I feel it would be very off-character.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. If James had not intervened, Sirius would have gotten Severus killed by Remus because he was angry with him. and this was before Azkabhan. In Sirius' case, Severus tried to intervene in what Kreacher had a hand in setting off - he asked Sirius to stay back, and he alerted the Order, but Sirius - of his own choosing - went to the MoM, because someone he loved was in trouble.

I see Sirius and Kreacher as very much alike. If they love you, they are the most loyal people/creatures on earth and will do anything they can for you. If you aren't a member of their pack, and they can't stand you, then their ire can be deadly. They both spent their lives being shaped by the same household and the same attitudes, even if one were pro-DE and one were pro-Order. And in the end they were both trapped at that house, and trapped with each other, when they'd rather be with the people they valued.

I never really thought the potion would inflict any permanent damage, or at least, damage that would last over two decades. Dumbledore soon snapped out of it and didn’t show any signs of mental damage afterwards

Dumbledore, while on the Astronomy Tower, kept sinking lower and lower and showing signs of getting weaker and weaker. The potion would have killed him in due time, IMHO. Kreacher may have been very physically ill, but since he was house-elf and not human, it probably affected him differently, but exactly how it affected him is hard to say.

[kittling]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

He should, then, have been much more considerate of this creature who was under his employ.

Kreature was not in Sirius’s employ – he was Sirius’s slave. That’s a very different position from being employed as one lacks the freedom to leave for a starter.

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

But was it undeservedly so? Wasn’t Kreacher horrible back to Sirius?

Does anyone deserve to be treated horribly? Personally I don’t think so – while I'm not a Christian the concept of ‘turn the other cheek’ is one that I think is basically laudable and I think a book talking so much about morality and the difference between what is right and what is easy perhaps people have higher expectation of people they consider ‘good guys’; but that’s Sirius’s behaviour and so is OT here.

Hadn’t Sirius himself been through multiple traumas that had resulted in profound depression? If Sirius hadn’t spent twelve years in Azkaban undeservedly, and the past year living off rats, I would certainly have condemned Sirius for his actions toward Kreacher, period. Yet, considering everything Sirius had been through, Kreacher’s presence was just a constant pounding on Sirius of all the unhappiness he’d faced and thought he’d escaped.

I think in some ways the two are rather similar both are beings that have been through awful things. Kreature had a strong bond with his mistress, Walburga Black, and with Regulus he younger son. He was the only person who knew what had happened to Regulus – so not only did he have to deal with ‘survivors guilt’ after Regulus dies to save him (something he’s been taught all his life is the wrong way round) he has lost someone, possible the only person, who valued him and he has to watch his Mistress’s grief over he missing probably dead son. He then finds he is unable do the last thing Regulus asked of him, more guilt. The he watches The House of Black fall into nothingness as his Mistress & Master also die. Then after 1985, when Walburga dies, he has to live alone, essentially in solitary confinement for at least 10 years, in the house as he can’t leave because he is still owned, still without freedom, and trapped in a decaying house totally alone apart from some ‘batty’ portraits.

Not exactly a pain free existence.

I’m trying to play the ‘who was hurt more’ game - I don’t think that relevant, but I think not only that we need to take this into account when analysing Kreature as a character but I think JKR wanted us to as well. Why? Well there are two characters she uses to ‘tell the truth’ when she feels it needs saying, Hermione & Dumbledore – and both make points about the awfulness of Kreature’s existence.

This doesn’t make what he does right – but I think it helps us to understand him better. I think when you say

Kreacher’s presence was just a constant pounding on Sirius of all the unhappiness he’d faced and thought he’d escaped. And that was exactly what he did not need at that point.

I think that was very true for both of them – I think they both brought home to each other the awfulness of their own positions. I think that understanding all of this makes it more understandable why when Kreature finally manages to leave and find a Black who treats him well – he acts the way he does. Perhaps he is hoping that if Sirius dies he will be free of being confined in the house and finally have a master who treats him well. Personally I can’t blame a Slave for being underhanded in a desire to get a better life (and although I strongly question his belief that it would lead to a better life do very strongly believe that he thought this would be the case)

If, as DD said, Kreacher’s feelings were “as acute a human being’s”, then perhaps he could have been as considerate of Sirius as Sirius is expected to be of him? If Kreacher can be considered as a “trapped” entity, isn’t Sirius the same?

Yes they both could have acted better – but Kreature was truly trapped in the house Sirius could have moved out of the UK – as he did for a while after escaping Azkaban if the parrot feather is anything to go by! I’m not saying he was ‘free as a daisy’ he certainly wasn’t but I really do believe he did have more options that an enslaved House Elf.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

Aww, Dobby’s adorable! I admit his methods of execution may be ill-advised, but his heart’s sure in the right place.

I wouldn't go so far as to call him adorable... He annoys me to all get out just like he annoys Harry in COS and IMO he's meant to come off as bothersome and irritating but when he died in the escape from Malfoy Manor I was truly sad as a reader and I genuinely think Harry digging Dobby's grave is the single most touching moment in the books. For however annoying I think he is he does make an impact as a character.

Anyway, OT, this is Kreachers's thread...

I never really thought the potion would inflict any permanent damage, or at least, damage that would last over two decades. Dumbledore soon snapped out of it and didn’t show any signs of mental damage afterwards – to the contrary, in fact. Of course, it may be argued that the potion would have affected house elves more than humans but I have reason to believe that Kreacher was always as batty as we see him to be.

I agree to a certain extent that Kreacher was probably always a little batty but I don't think the potion helped. Dumbledore was a full grown man drinking cup after cup of that potion and it nearly killed him, imagine a tiny body like that of a house elf drinking the same amount of that potion - I definitely think it could and did have a lasting effect.

But was it undeservedly so? Wasn’t Kreacher horrible back to Sirius? Hadn’t Sirius himself been through multiple traumas that had resulted in profound depression? If Sirius hadn’t spent twelve years in Azkaban undeservedly, and the past year living off rats, I would certainly have condemned Sirius for his actions toward Kreacher, period.

The thing is, though, Sirius wasn't just horrible to Kreacher after he returned from Azkaban, he was probably just as horrible to him before he ran away from home, too. Sirius hated his family, hated that house and that hatred probably extended to Kreacher who took on his Mistress's pureblood beliefs as his own because she was good to him. As Kittling points out, Kreacher had been left alone in that house for a decade and, finally, when he gets someone to interact with (even if that person is only giving him orders) the person is the one who probably treated him the worst out of everyone Kreacher ever met. Does this excuse his actions? No. But think about any victim of abuse who escapes and then suddenly finds themself back under the thumb of their tormentor years later. They'd do anything to get away again and I feel like that's kind of what Kreacher was doing.

I personally feel like Kreacher gets it easy both ways – he is not expected to be nice to Sirius because he’s the “underdog” or the “lesser” being in that relationship; yet, he can be human enough and intelligent enough to look for loopholes in his orders, to laugh at his clever downing of a “foe”, and join the right side of the war and redeem himself.

But what, in turn, does that say about Sirius? He is the "greater" being in the relationship and yet he makes the choice to not only hate the "lesser" being that he owns, he actively verbally abuses that being for no other reason than because that being parrots the beliefs of a woman who was nice to him and whom Sirius hates. You know the saying "you don't judge a man by how he treats he equals, you judge him by how he treats his inferiors?" Even if, as Dumbledore says, Sirius is generally good to house elves (which I feel is JKR's way of giving Sirius a reprieve for his actions against Kreacher) that doesn't make it suddenly okay for him to be exceptionally cruel to the one he owns.

I absolutely don’t think so. I’m not saying Sirius was a great master to Kreacher – the fact that he yells at him and makes snarky comments about him (as far as we see on page) proves that. However, if you’re suggesting that Sirius was physically abusing Kreacher off-page, I have to disagree. Sirius does not come off as the type to raise his hand when he’s angry (and I'm not counting the rage he was in in PoA while he was trying to find Peter). I feel it would be very off-character.

MerryLore replied to this better than I could so I'll let her comments stand and just say that I second her statements.

Also, I'm not saying Sirius physically abused Kreacher, but often times it's not the physical abuse that causes the worst damage, it's the mental abuse, the constant drone of hearing that you're inferior, stupid, less than human... There is a great song with the lyrics "I'd rather have stick and stones/and broken bones/than the words you say to me/Cause I know bruises heal/and cuts will seal/but your words beat the life from me" which says a lot. I'm not saying that if you're going to abuse someone abuse them verbally or mentally because it'll have more impact, I'm saying that verbal or mental abuse is often overlooked in the impact that it can have because it isn't as dramatic as a black eye or a broken bone and isn't as easy to see.

But is Bellatrix’s treatment of “inferior” creatures comparable to Sirius’s treatment of Kreacher? Is Sirius’s treatment of Kreacher comparable to the ways in which all Death Eaters treat “inferior” creatures? Does Sirius ever casually slit open Kreacher’s cheek? Or AK him just ‘cause he jumped out at Sirius too suddenly?

I wasn't trying to pit Sirius's actions against Bellatrix's, I was trying to point out that if the roles had been reversed and if Kreacher had been sending a villainous character to their death rather than a character the fandom loves would we be condemning Kreacher for that death as we are condemning him for what he did to Sirius? I don't think so. I think a lot of what fans react to with regards to Kreacher is that he sent a "good guy" to his death, and not just a good guy, he sent Harry's godfather and a beloved and sympathetic character, to his death. If he had done the same to a death eater, any death eater, we would have been applauding Kreacher.

There is a reason why Sirius is labeled a “good guy” – because he is so. He doesn’t cross the line and move into “cruel” territory.

I think Sirius is more complex a character than simply labeling him a "good guy" - his actions against Severus weren't those of a "good guy", he was sending someone basically to their death because he thought it would be funny.

This is the Kreacher thread, though, if you'd like to talk more about Sirius we can do it in his thread.

Originally Posted by MerryLore

I see Sirius and Kreacher as very much alike. If they love you, they are the most loyal people/creatures on earth and will do anything they can for you. If you aren't a member of their pack, and they can't stand you, then their ire can be deadly. They both spent their lives being shaped by the same household and the same attitudes, even if one were pro-DE and one were pro-Order. And in the end they were both trapped at that house, and trapped with each other, when they'd rather be with the people they valued.

Absolutely. Agree 100%. Kreacher and Sirius are neither entirely good nor entirely bad, neither is an innocent victim of the other, they were active participants in an on-going battle. The reason I have more sympathy for Kreacher than Sirius in this battle is because Kreacher is the employee, the slave, he doesn't have a choice about his situation whereas Sirius can chose to walk about the door of Grimmauld Place and never go back. He can make the choice not to be horrible to Kreacher whereas Kreacher has no choice in the matter but to take the abuse and relatiate in the only way he can, in finding those loopholes in his orders. Sirius, to me, is the instigator in the whole situation; after he left home at the age of 16 Kreacher could go back to living his life with the Mistress he loved and the boy he loved him enough to sacrifice himself instead of Kreacher. Sirius could order Kreacher to do whatever he wanted, he could order Kreacher to never retailiate against him, to take his abuses without comment and that's just sick. When Sirius returned to Grimmauld Place Kreacher, once again, found himself in the employ (or in the involuntary service of) a person he hates because of how that man chose to treat him.

That's why Sirius is held to a higher standard than Kreacher. Because he had the choice to do it differently and he didn't.

Originally Posted by kittling

Does anyone deserve to be treated horribly? Personally I don’t think so – while I'm not a Christian the concept of ‘turn the other cheek’ is one that I think is basically laudable and I think a book talking so much about morality and the difference between what is right and what is easy perhaps people have higher expectation of people they consider ‘good guys’; but that’s Sirius’s behaviour and so is OT here.

Sirius, IMO, chose the easy path in giving in to his hatred of Kreacher and, by extention, his family rather than doing the "right thing" and turning the other cheek.

Personally I can’t blame a Slave for being underhanded in a desire to get a better life (and although I strongly question his belief that it would lead to a better life do very strongly believe that he thought this would be the case)

I think a lot of readers only see the books from one perspective and don't really give the motivations of other characters much thought. Kreacher was a slave who lived under the thumb of a bad master. If the entire story were framed differently, if Kreacher were the hero of this story we would be cheering when he finally broke free of his bad master but because the bad master is one of the heros we sympathize with... It's like the debate about Peter Pettigrew's betrayal; did he do it simply to be spiteful or did he, as a character operating under his own motives, feel that betayal was justified? If the entire story were framed with Peter as the hero, as the character we're meant to sympathize with, as the character whose thoughts and emotions we know the best, would we not at least understand why he made the choices he did?

Sorry, this isn't the Peter thread, I know, I'm using it as an example, not to incite an OT converstation about Peter. If you want to talk about him I'll go to that thread and discuss it with you.

Yes they both could have acted better – but Kreature was truly trapped in the house Sirius could have moved out of the UK – as he did for a while after escaping Azkaban if the parrot feather is anything to go by! I’m not saying he was ‘free as a daisy’ he certainly wasn’t but I really do believe he did have more options that an enslaved House Elf.

For sure. Sirius had choices, Kreacher had none.

[kittling]

From the Sirius thread

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

And Kreacher did have the choice to move if he had the willpower necessary. I think JKR makes it clear that there is no actual magical bond that literally sticks a house elf with their family.

HBP; Will and Won’t Harry stared at Dumbledore. He knew that Kreature could not be permitted to go and live with Bellatrix Lestrange, but the idea of owning him, of having responsibility for the creature that had betrayed Sirius, was repugnant. ‘Give him an order,’ said Dumbledore. ‘If he has passed into your ownership, he will have to obey.’

I think it is fairly clear here that free will is not a possibility if a master gives an order the owned house-elf has to obey wither they want to or not.

As for where a house elf resides – I don’t think free will comes into that either.

HBP; Will and Won’t ‘If I might make a suggestion, you could send him to Hogwarts to work in the kitchen there. In that way, the other house-elves can keep an eye on him.’ ‘Yeah,’ said Harry in relief, ‘yeah, I’ll do that. Er – Kreature – I want you to go to Hogwarts and work in the kitchen there with the other house-elves.’ Kreature, who was now lying flat on his ack with his arms and legs in the air, gave Harry one upside-down look of deepest loathing and, with another loud crack, vanished.

CoS; Dobby’s Warning ‘Dobby is a house-elf – bound toserve one house and one family for ever…’ […] ‘But why don’t you leave? Escape?’ ‘A house-elf must be set free, sir. And the family will never set Dobby free… Dobby will serve the family until he dies, sir…’

Again being a slave means free will is not the issue but rather house-elves exist under a magical bond they cannot break – a bit like an unbreakable vow - the magic holds them and an exercise of free will, will not change it. Unless you can find some cannon that refutes this of course

[TheGuy]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

Thought I'd post my two cents here.

Kreacher’s storyline is the one that leaves me with the most conflicted feelings. On one hand, he garners sympathy as all house-elves do. On the other, he has earned my eternal disgust for sending Sirius to his death and never paying the consequences. Because of the latter, I just cannot bring myself to sympathize with him and love him as much as I do, say, Dobby.

One reason I have a problem with the forgiveness that Kreacher earned is that there does seem to be moral standards similar to human beings’ among house elves. Dobby is shown to have a conscience similar to humans – he can judge for himself that the Malfoys are up to no good, despite having been in their service for all his life; he can break free of the Malfoys’ beliefs and have his own wish to save Harry, the universally acknowledged “good guy”; he despises the Malfoys but never takes any pleasure in harming them; nor does ever try to find a way to finish the Malfoys. Maltreated house elves, in other words, can have principles and moral values – killing is not good, practicing Dark Magic is not good – similar to human beings. Then why is it that the absence of such values in Kreacher can be excused and explained away as “living under oppression” and “parroting his Masters’ beliefs” and “craving kindness”? IMO, murder (or conspiracy to murder) in cold blood is just that, no matter who does it. If he can have, as DD words it, “feelings as acute as a human beings’”, then he should also have morals similar to humans. And if he doesn’t, then…well, he isn’t a good elf. I’m unable to say “Kreacher conspired to commit a murder - but he’s a slave, so it’s OK!”

Furthermore, his lack of remorse for sending Sirius to his death is appalling, IMO. He laughs while telling Dumbledore about how’d tricked Harry and Sirius and, in later books, after his “transformation”, never expresses a single word of regret for his previous actions. If house elves were simply presented as robots who were hardwired to do nothing more or less than they were bid to do by their masters, I could forgive Kreacher. However, the fact that house elves do have a will of their own and feelings and morals just like human beings, prevents me from sympathizing with him.

In the end, when Harry actively creates a positive relationship with Kreacher, I somehow felt like he was insulting Sirius’ memory. I am not saying that Harry should have punished him – Harry is above such vindictiveness and I would’ve lost respect for him, had he sought Kreacher out just to harm him. However, I felt like Harry should’ve maintained a relationship like he did with Draco after the war - I don’t hate you, but I don’t like you either. It is beyond me how Harry could happily form a positive bond with the creature that had sent one of Harry’s loved ones to his death. This was overkill on JKR’s part, I think. Or maybe I’m just not as big-hearted as Harry.

Having said all that, there is also a part of me that feels sorry for Kreacher. He was a slave who’d spent his life with a bordering-on-deranged family and, following Mrs. Black’s death, was incarcerated in the gloom of No. 12 Grimmauld Place (although, he could have left if he’d had the will to). My greatest moment of sympathy for him would be when Voldemort uses him to drink the potion in the cave. That was one moment in which I actually, fully felt a deep loathing for Voldemort. But beyond that, I cannot feel sorry for Kreacher.

I think we need to start right from the top; Dobby is a VERY unique House Elf. Winky and the House Elves in the kitchens of Hogwarts did not agree with Dobby's ways. Winky was downright apalled by Dobby's conduct while the others - while not vocal about it -, were also clearly not on the same page as Dobby either. Based on this, I don't think it is even possible to compare Kreacher - or any other House Elf for that matter - to Dobby. Dobby's reasoning capabilities and world views are so very different to that of any other House Elf. The others, Winky included, showed almost sacrificial allegiance to their masters, regardless of their ideas & opinions, while Dobby is the only one we know of that was able to transgress that. Winky nearly starved and drank herself to death over losing her master and Kreacher drank poison and tortured himself trying to make his master proud.

We also know that Kreacher had been left alone in that house for over a decade, with his only company being the picture of Sirius' mother and I get the distinct feeling she would not be telling him happy stories. So, locked in that dank, dark house all alone and brewing on the - as Sirius put it - ''pure-blood mania'' indoctrination he had been subjected to would create a very, well, dark Kreacher. Also, we know that Sirius was ostricised by his family, so there's another point there. Kreacher would just continue behaving in the manner his masters did - the ones who showed him affection - when he came across Sirius again.

I'm willing to bet that had Sirius attempted - Sirius was no Saint - to reconcile with Kreacher, he would have changed his ways. Heck, he even managed to tolerate Hermione.

I do not believe that a House Elf can be good or evil. I believe they behave how they are treated and conduct themselves according to how they are indoctrinated by their masters.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

Furthermore, his lack of remorse for sending Sirius to his death is appalling, IMO. He laughs while telling Dumbledore about how’d tricked Harry and Sirius and, in later books, after his “transformation”, never expresses a single word of regret for his previous actions. If house elves were simply presented as robots who were hardwired to do nothing more or less than they were bid to do by their masters, I could forgive Kreacher. However, the fact that house elves do have a will of their own and feelings and morals just like human beings, prevents me from sympathizing with him.

His lack of remorse was because he hated Sirius. I don't think his feelings towards Sirius changed even after his transformation. Right at the end, when the elves fought at Hogwarts, Kreacher makes it obvious that he was doing it for Regulus. As Dumbledore says, some wounds are too deep. I don't think Sirius or Harry (prior to DH) would have been too upset if Kreacher had died.

In the end, when Harry actively creates a positive relationship with Kreacher, I somehow felt like he was insulting Sirius’ memory. I am not saying that Harry should have punished him – Harry is above such vindictiveness and I would’ve lost respect for him, had he sought Kreacher out just to harm him. However, I felt like Harry should’ve maintained a relationship like he did with Draco after the war - I don’t hate you, but I don’t like you either. It is beyond me how Harry could happily form a positive bond with the creature that had sent one of Harry’s loved ones to his death. This was overkill on JKR’s part, I think. Or maybe I’m just not as big-hearted as Harry.

I think Harry understood why Kreacher acted the way he did. Also, I don't really hold Kreacher responsible for Sirius' death. You could say he attempted to send Harry to his death but not Sirius. The plot was to send Harry to the DoM not Sirius.

I never really thought the potion would inflict any permanent damage, or at least, damage that would last over two decades. Dumbledore soon snapped out of it and didn’t show any signs of mental damage afterwards – to the contrary, in fact.

We don't know this. Dumbledore died soon after ingesting it. He also did not snap out of it, other than for a brief moment when the news of the Dark Mark acted as a catalyst. He was showing signs of weakness on the tower. In fact, if not for Kreacher's tale, I'd have thought that the potion would eventually kill the person without immediate medical help.

The similarity for me between Dobby and Kreacher was that they both worked for masters they hated and they both tried to screw them over. House elves seem to be risky slaves to have.

I wonder what Dumbledore would have done to Kreacher to keep him away from Bellatrix if Bellatrix had become his master after Sirius' death.

[TheGuy]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

The similarity for me between Dobby and Kreacher was that they both worked for masters they hated and they both tried to screw them over. House elves seem to be risky slaves to have.

Don't let Hermione hear you say that.

But in all seriousness, what slave is not dangerous to have? I think both Dobby and Kreacher proved that they are capable of very human feelings and behaviour. But even aside of that, if you mistreat a dog you will create a very dangerous animal. If you degrade/torment/abuse anything for long enough, it will rebel. How you treat a House Elf is how it will behave. Kreacher would have died for Regulus, but nor for Sirius as Regulus likely treated him with respect and showed affection to him. Likewise Dobby's attempts to save Harry - although he was doing more harm than good most of the time - as Harry had treated him so very unlike the Malfoys had.