The Dursley-Potter family character analysis

[Hes]

Pottermore has given us insight in the dynamics between the Dursleys and the Potters. From their first meeting until their last.

1. Should Petunia have told Vernon at all about Lily's magical abilities? Knowing Vernon's dislike for the abnomal?

2. Do you think Vernon Dursley and James Potter gave each other a fair chance during their first meeting?

3. Could both Petunia and Lily have done things differently (and better) to make things work?

4. If Lily and James had survived, how would their relationship with Petunia and Vernon have progressed?

[StarryVeil]

I can't believe nobody's replied to this thread yet! Let me do the honors.

Should Petunia have told Vernon at all about Lily's magical abilities? Knowing Vernon's dislike for the abnormal?
I actually thought coming clean to Vernon about her sister’s magical abilities was one of the best things Petunia ever did and showed whatever strength of character she had. Knowing Vernon’s abhorrence of the abnormal, Petunia still decided not to keep it a secret from him. Judging from the amount of animosity between Petunia and Lily and the lack of contact between them, Petunia could, I think, very easily have just decided to ignore her sister’s existence and not tell Vernon. And yet she risked the possibility of being ditched by Vernon in order to tell him the truth.

Do you think Vernon Dursley and James Potter gave each other a fair chance during their first meeting?
Not completely, no. On Vernon’s side, it was just purely aggressive and I think he came into the restaurant with repugnance for the then-unknown Lily’s boyfriend already planted in his system - simply because he knew Lily’s boyfriend was a wizard. His attempts at “conversation” with James seemed, to me, to be simply attempts at humiliating him.

On James’s side, I don’t think he came in with any sort of disgust or prejudice ingrained in his mind. Yes, I do think he viewed Muggles with that slight amusement and harmless condescension that most pureblood wizards seem to look upon Muggles with (ie. the Weasleys). Vernon’s cartoonish demeanor and appearance would, I think, have added to the amusement of the high-spirited James. However, the account given doesn’t give any evidence of James actively trying to antagonize Vernon, only him retaliating to Vernon’s needling. I do think, however, that it would have been more prudent of James to let it go for the sake of keeping things civilized…but I suppose “letting it go” is not a very James thing, is it? That being said, I believe that if Vernon had not instigated the verbal spar but had been friendly instead, James would definitely have responded in kind.

Could both Petunia and Lily have done things differently (and better) to make things work?
Petunia certainly could have. She shouldn’t have been so bitter, IMO, and should have let it go and decided to be happy the way she was. I know it would have been hard (I’d be positively ballistic if I found out my sister had magical abilities and I didn’t ) but once they had reached adulthood, Petunia should have put a rest to such childish sentiments, IMO.

On Lily’s side…well, I don’t have very solid evidence to back this up, but maybe she could have tried to lessen her use of magic in front of Petunia. Judging from TPT and Petunia’s comments about her coming home and turning teacups into rats, I got the feeling that Lily didn’t exactly try to downplay her abilities. Added to that, their parents were obviously fascinated with their younger daughter’s abilities. Given all this, maybe Lily could have tried to be extremely modest at home just so Petunia and her skills could get a similar amount of attention and praise.

If Lily and James had survived, how would their relationship with Petunia and Vernon have progressed?
Well, judging by Lily’s letter to Sirius in DH, she had come to terms with her dysfunctional relationship with her sister. Her snarky comment about Petunia’s Christmas present seemed to suggest that. For a long time, I do believe Lily fought to maintain a warm relationship with her sister. She and James had even attended Petunia and Vernon’s wedding and tolerated their insults and ignorance silently. But by the time Lily was writing the letter to Sirius, I think she had realized that Petunia was too hardened to change. So if Lily and James had survived, I think they would have continued to have a distant, Christmas-present relationship.

[xhanax315]

I can't see Vernon giving James a chance when they first met, especially if Petunia told him about his magical abilites. I'd like to think that James attempted to be nice when they first met since he had grown out most of his immaturity.

[Goddess_Clio]

Should Petunia have told Vernon at all about Lily's magical abilities? Knowing Vernon's dislike for the abnormal?

Knowing it or not it's a personal belief of mine that you should tell your spouse or significant other things they should know about people you're related to (for instance whether you have a criminal in the family, whether you have an aunt declared insane and that's in an institution, etc.) A marriage where you actively repress information about someone as close to you as your sister isn't a good marriage.

My personal beliefs aside, if Petunia was so ashamed of her sister that she felt like she couldn't tell her husband about her than maybe she shouldn't have married that man.

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

I actually thought coming clean to Vernon about her sister’s magical abilities was one of the best things Petunia ever did and showed whatever strength of character she had.

I agree.

Do you think Vernon Dursley and James Potter gave each other a fair chance during their first meeting?

Not really but to be fair neither was really in a position to give the other a fair chance. Vernon entered the situation with a prejudice he wasn't willing to let go. James entered the situation essentially being attacked and from what we're shown of their encounter he seemed more apt to push Vernon's buttons than to put aside his own amusement for sake of making the situation work out, something it is said he regretted after the fact.

Could both Petunia and Lily have done things differently (and better) to make things work?

From what we're shown in canon and what is probably assumed from the encounter described on Pottermore (the dinner double date, the assumption being that Lily set it up) Lily seemed to be trying pretty hard to make it work with Petunia, she seemed to want their relationship to continue. It seems that Petunia was the one holding onto her childhood jealousy and anger and seemed the one unwilling to play along and try to get things back on the right track.

On Lily’s side…well, I don’t have very solid evidence to back this up, but maybe she could have tried to lessen her use of magic in front of Petunia. Judging from TPT and Petunia’s comments about her coming home and turning teacups into rats, I got the feeling that Lily didn’t exactly try to downplay her abilities. Added to that, their parents were obviously fascinated with their younger daughter’s abilities. Given all this, maybe Lily could have tried to be extremely modest at home just so Petunia and her skills could get a similar amount of attention and praise.

While this is an interesting and good point, it's true that we aren't told whether or not Lily went around flouting her abilities. I'm reasonably certain that Lily did use magic at home but I am also inclined to think that Petunia's anger and jealousy which she was holding onto all those intervening years blew the amount of magic Lily performed out of proportion.

If Lily and James had survived, how would their relationship with Petunia and Vernon have progressed?

I think they had reached an impasse or a stalemate by this point and I think Lily knew it. As long as Petunia was married to Vernon and under the prejudiced influence him and his obsession with everything proper and normal, Petunia and Lily's relationship could never heal because Vernon will never change his mind.

[leckleck]

Petunia and Vernon Dursley. The two individuals hating anything from the wizarding world of any sort. And the only reason they know about this obviously ridiculous, stupid, abhorrent world is because of Petunia's own experiences in her childhood, growing up with Lily for a sister. Now, I have to wonder.. What made Vernon detest the abnormal? Because we know that Petunia had reason to, because of her younger years spent with Lily, and her exposure to the oddity of it at a young age, and realizing she would never be able to take part in this separate world. Was it Petunia that influenced Vernon? I don't believe this is ever really explained in the books.. feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But anyway-- I feel like when Petunia told Vernon all about Lily's capabilities, she was essentially letting go of the last burden holding her to her sister. While that may sound cruel, Lily being dead and all, it makes sense to me when I think about it. Therefore yes, I do think it was a good idea, not to mention brave. After this, their relationship might actually be able to have progressed, now that everything was laid out on the table.
Moving on to my next point: James Potter vs. Vernon Dudley. Well, were either of them given a fair chance? I mean, I picture Lily as not being nearly as harsh as her sister, but I'm sure that James himself already had opinions formed in his glorious little head. As did Vernon, of course. Their minds were already tainted with preconceived assumptions as to what they had heard-- and even if this was not much, all the more power to them. It seems to me that this would just give them more room to make up scenarios of the other couple in their head. So no, I don't, simply because they had already grown to hate each other based on holding on to experiences from the past, and of course, the Dursley's resilience to the wizarding world.
Could they have worked it out, Lily and Petunia? Yes and no. The modern part of me wants to urge them to have gotten therapy at some point in their lives, or had a positive outlook on the other sister. But realistically thinking, as soon as Lily met Snape and began to learn more and more about the wizarding world.. she was gone. Petunia was completely opposed to this, and it tore them apart. I believe that they could have eventually resided to an awkward communication. Because Lily would always be holding back the want to use some sort of magic, or recount a funny tale at Hogwarts. And Petunia would always be holding back comments, most likely, about Lily and her family and the wizarding world in general. Therefore it would probably be better for there to be more of a neutral agreement, and the two families to have been left at ease. (This, of course, if Lily had lived. Sigh).
Not to mention that if Petunia hadn't been so opposed with magic to begin with, and Lily hadn't been so constant with using it.. they might have gotten along. But that's like telling them to be someone else. They're not. Yeah, that's just the gist of what I think.

[StarryVeil]

Firstly, thanks for reviving this thread! I was waiting for someone to trigger a debate here.

Originally Posted by leckleck

I mean, I picture Lily as not being nearly as harsh as her sister, but I'm sure that James himself already had opinions formed in his glorious little head. As did Vernon, of course. Their minds were already tainted with preconceived assumptions as to what they had heard-- and even if this was not much, all the more power to them. It seems to me that this would just give them more room to make up scenarios of the other couple in their head. So no, I don't, simply because they had already grown to hate each other based on holding on to experiences from the past, and of course, the Dursley's resilience to the wizarding world.

Why do you say so? This was the first time Vernon and James were meeting - I doubt they knew much about the other's personality and nature before that. All James knew of Vernon was that he was Lily's Muggle brother-in-law to be, and all Vernon knew of James was that he was his future sister-in-law's wizard boyfriend. I doubt Lily had filled James's head with malicious thoughts regarding Vernon so I don't see why James "already had opinions formed inside his glorious little head" or how Vernon and James "had already grown to hate each other based on holding on to experiences from the past".

IMO, Vernon came in with an already-ingrained revulsion of James, but only because he was a wizard, not because he knew or had anything against James as a person. And, I see no reason why James would've come in with any prejudice in his head - I imagine he came in ready to have a pleasant dinner (prepared to share his joke about the Chaser, the niffler, and the Muggle policeman ) but ended up being antagonized instead.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

IMO, Vernon came in with an already-ingrained revulsion of James, but only because he was a wizard, not because he knew or had anything against James as a person. And, I see no reason why James would've come in with any prejudice in his head - I imagine he came in ready to have a pleasant dinner (prepared to share his joke about the Chaser, the niffler, and the Muggle policeman ) but ended up being antagonized instead.

James came from a pure blood wizarding family and most likely had little to no experience with muggles, and many in the wizarding world considered themselves superior to them. Vernon came from a total muggle world and would not have even known wizards existed until he met Petunia. To me, they both sound like they'll believe their worlds are superior, and neither James nor Vernon come across as being particularly humble people themselves.

I think Petunia and Lily chose spouses who were secure in themselves and the world they lived in, with Vernon reinforcing the strength of the muggle world and helping Petunia deny to herself the feelings she had of jealousy towards Lily, while James helped Lily leave the muggle world behind and focus entirely on her life in the wizarding world, despite perhaps feeling concern about her lack of wizarding background and "mudblood" status to the DEs. Most people would rather not be involved in a war and would prefer to live in peace, which I think Lily saw Petunia as having. I think the two sisters wanted to reach out to each other, but they were conflicted, and therefore the relationship was doomed, IMHO.

[StarryVeil]

Originally Posted by Merrylore

James came from a pure blood wizarding family and most likely had little to no experience with muggles, and many in the wizarding world considered themselves superior to them.

I think the majority of the wizarding population consider themselves superior to Muggles. However, I don't think it means that they behave badly with Muggles just because of that. I think James's general attitude towards Muggles was similar to that of the Weasleys. Mild amusement, curiosity, and perhaps a harmless condescension.

I honestly always pictured James's meeting with Lily's family as similar to my picture of Ron meeting Hermione's family. Ron certainly thought wizards were superior to Muggles (in a harmless way), but I don't see him behaving rudely with Hermione's family just because of that.

To me, they both sound like they'll believe their worlds are superior, and neither James nor Vernon come across as being particularly humble people themselves.

Yes, but not being humble doesn't immediately translate to bad behavior. I think Vernon was actually repulsed by the idea of magic and magical beings whereas I doubt James had any disgust or aggressive feelings toward Muggles (I don't see Lily marrying him if he did. Nor do I see him fighting in the Order). Therefore, coming into the restaurant, Vernon was the one carrying hostile feelings, not James. Vernon started behaving impolitely and James couldn't resist retaliating (which, IMO, was the only mistake he made that evening). I would also like to point out that, even while retaliating, James never insulted Vernon back. He simply took Vernon's questions and assumptions literally and laid out his defenses, thereby infuriating Vernon.

I think the two sisters wanted to reach out to each other, but they were conflicted, and therefore the relationship was doomed, IMHO.

You do? I actually never saw any wish from Petunia's side to reconcile with Lily. I only saw bitterness and an inability to let go of childish sentiments. IMO, if Petunia had really wanted to reach out to her sister, all she had to do was extend her hand, and Lily would surely have done the rest. On Lily's side, I don't see any mental conflicts, really. I think she was ready to accept her sister back into her circle always and that's what she tried to do for a long time.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

Why do you say so? This was the first time Vernon and James were meeting - I doubt they knew much about the other's personality and nature before that. All James knew of Vernon was that he was Lily's Muggle brother-in-law to be, and all Vernon knew of James was that he was his future sister-in-law's wizard boyfriend. I doubt Lily had filled James's head with malicious thoughts regarding Vernon so I don't see why James "already had opinions formed inside his glorious little head" or how Vernon and James "had already grown to hate each other based on holding on to experiences from the past".

While I agree with the general sentiment of these statements I do think James probably had a better idea of what to expect from Vernon than it seems you think he did. When you bring home your girlfriend or boyfriend to meet your family for the first time it's usual to give them a quick breakdown of each person's personality (My dad is a big car guy, talk cars with him and he'll love you. My brother is in an antisocial phase right now so if he spends the whole evening ignoring you don't take it personally. etc.) I don't think Lily would have let James go into a meeting with not only her sister and future brother-in-law completely blind but to have her wizard boyfriend meeting her muggle-hating brother-in-law would probably have necesitated Lily pulling James aside and giving him a talking to about behaving well because even if James and Lily don't last it's likely that Vernon will remain her brother-in-law for the next 50 years so she needs this meeting to go well.

I also think that Vernon was the one who came into the dinner in attack mode and James was heeding Lily's request to the best of his ability and might not have seen his needling Vernon as having any negative consequences for Lily until after the fact. He wasn't biting at Vernon's bait which he might have thought was obeying Lily's request to be polite and friendly.

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

You do? I actually never saw any wish from Petunia's side to reconcile with Lily. I only saw bitterness and an inability to let go of childish sentiments. IMO, if Petunia had really wanted to reach out to her sister, all she had to do was extend her hand, and Lily would surely have done the rest. On Lily's side, I don't see any mental conflicts, really. I think she was ready to accept her sister back into her circle always and that's what she tried to do for a long time.

I agree. It seems, based on book canon and the Pottermore story, that it was Lily who was extending the olive branches and it was Petnuia who was throwing them aside. It was Petunia who wouldn't let go of her jealousy and it was Lily who was trying to mend a relationship she probably held herself responsible for ruining.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

I honestly always pictured James's meeting with Lily's family as similar to my picture of Ron meeting Hermione's family. Ron certainly thought wizards were superior to Muggles (in a harmless way), but I don't see him behaving rudely with Hermione's family just because of that.

Ron's father was fascinated by muggles. He grew up in a different atmosphere, I suspect. And I also suspect James' "harmless condescending attitude" would have been picked up on by Vernon and viewed as offensive.

Vernon started behaving impolitely and James couldn't resist retaliating (which, IMO, was the only mistake he made that evening). I would also like to point out that, even while retaliating, James never insulted Vernon back. He simply took Vernon's questions and assumptions literally and laid out his defenses, thereby infuriating Vernon.

Maybe it's just me, but if i were meeting Lily's family I'd put in an extra effort to get along, and I think James chose to not do that, because he saw his world as superior, just as Vernon saw his own world.

You do? I actually never saw any wish from Petunia's side to reconcile with Lily. I only saw bitterness and an inability to let go of childish sentiments. IMO, if Petunia had really wanted to reach out to her sister, all she had to do was extend her hand, and Lily would surely have done the rest. On Lily's side, I don't see any mental conflicts, really. I think she was ready to accept her sister back into her circle always and that's what she tried to do for a long time.

I do. Petunia agreed to this meeting - if she didn't want to reconcile, she would not have. She also would not have bought Lily a gift later on (which was accidentally broken while they were in hiding.) And i do believe Lily, even if it were on an entirely unconscious level, wished she did not have a muggle background. No one wants to see themselves targeted.

Myself, i don't see any potential for reconciliation. I think both couples would have gone their separate ways, although i think Petunia and Lily would have had regrets and set the yearly Christmas presents.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

Maybe it's just me, but if i were meeting Lily's family I'd put in an extra effort to get along, and I think James chose to not do that, because he saw his world as superior, just as Vernon saw his own world.

While I agree that there was probably a tinge of not-so-harmless condescention on James's part, I wonder at the same time how much of his needling of Vernon was due to his personality rather than his belief that his people were superior. James might have thought himself generally superior to everyone hence the reason he came off as and got the descriptor of being arrogant. He was wealthy, intelligent, witty, popular and probably pretty good-looking (probably no Sirius Black but he probably wasn't a troll either) and a combination of factors like that can lead to arrogance and a certain amount of superiority. In addition, cockiness and self-assuredness of ones abilities can often come off as looking or acting superior when in reality that person is just very secure in themself and very aware of their own talents and shortcomings. I can totally see a person like that thinking they are being extra polite (while throwing in a few zingers here and there to ruffle feathers) when in reality they are coming off as totally condescending. James might have thought he was doing a heck of a job being polite and extra charming but it turns out he was actually coming off like a jerk.

Basically, I hesitate to say that all of the "blame" in this situation should be put on whether or not James thought all of wizard-kind were superior to all of muggle-kind and at least part of the situation is heavily dependant on his personality and how it is perceived by people who don't know him. Some people can be really sweet people but they make a lousy first impression. James might have just made a really lousy first impression.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

Basically, I hesitate to say that all of the "blame" in this situation should be put on whether or not James thought all of wizard-kind were superior to all of muggle-kind and at least part of the situation is heavily dependant on his personality and how it is perceived by people who don't know him. Some people can be really sweet people but they make a lousy first impression. James might have just made a really lousy first impression.

Please don't misunderstand - Vernon had a huge hand in it as well. I think one of the reasons Petunia chose him was because he was exceedingly Muggle ordinary and proud of it, and i do think he made his dislike of James and Lily clear from the start. I just don't think James, being who he was, made the situation any easier.

[JohanT]

1. Should Petunia have told Vernon at all about Lily's magical abilities? Knowing Vernon's dislike for the abnomal?

Well, if the secret had been kept, and the meeting between Vernon and Lily finally rolled around, all Petunia would have gotten would be an incredulous, frightened stare, and a broken heart . But, here is a theory that is probably complete nonsense, but I'll present it regardless. Petunia dislikes wizardry, though not necessarily for the reasons Vernon dislikes it. Perhaps this mutual fear/disgust with the abnormal was how they were able to maintain such a steady relationship . Petunia may have thought that telling Vernon of her dislike would strengthen their ties, as they would both then be able to relish in their aversion together .

2. Do you think Vernon Dursley and James Potter gave each other a fair chance during their first meeting?

I think preconceived notions and opinions were already developed by the time this occured. No doubt, what both Petunia and Lily would tell their husbands about their sibling's partner was less than kind, I am assuming. I would imagine Lily to be more frank and honest though, but she most likely warned James of the intense hatred Vernon had for magic. Already, James has a reason to toy with Vernon. He may have been reasonably well-mannered at first, but I do believe Vernon's attitude would have set off the sarcasm and cruel wit. And, of course, Vernon most likely heard nothing from Petunia but negativity regarding her sister and husband. It would be difficult for either of them to give the other a fair chance, when they both walked in with loyalty to the one who had given them these already formed opinions.

3. Could both Petunia and Lily have done things differently (and better) to make things work?

Yes, most definitely. Petunia, for one, could have accepted her sister's abilities. And, to go along with that, accepted that she did not have them. But, in my opinion, specifically later on, Petunia's grudge against Lily had less to do with the fact that Lily was born with magic, and more to do with the fact that Petunia did not want to admit that she was wrong . She did not want to acknowledge her part in driving her sister away.

Lily, as the younger sibling, no doubt looked up to Petunia. However, perhaps Lily, who seems to be quite outspoken and fiery at times, could have learned to be accomodating with her magic skills, and maybe she could have restrained herself when in Petunia's presence.

Similarily, perhaps the parents could have done a bit more. Though we are unaware of their part in this enmity between siblings, maybe they could have payed less attention to Lily for her abilities, and just payed her attention because she was their daughter. And, of course, do the same for Petunia. It would even out the equality of a sibling relationship, with regards to the parents.

4. If Lily and James had survived, how would their relationship with Petunia and Vernon have progressed?

Well, if they had survived...As the question is not that specific, I am not sure how to answer it. Survived as in they did not die from Voldemort's wand, or survive as in Voldemort never came after them in the first place? Or, better yet, Voldemort never existed to even make an attempt on their lives?

The two former hypotheticals have a probability of presenting the wish Petunia and Vernon would have to keep their own family unit safe. Lily and James would always be marked people, on Voldemort's most wanted list. As a result, I doubt that these so-called "normal" people would appreciate having contact with two war criminals .

If Voldemort hadn't existed, though, that is another question. There is a possibility that Lily wouldn't even have ended up with James, so I dare not answer this .

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by MerryLore

Please don't misunderstand - Vernon had a huge hand in it as well. I think one of the reasons Petunia chose him was because he was exceedingly Muggle ordinary and proud of it, and i do think he made his dislike of James and Lily clear from the start. I just don't think James, being who he was, made the situation any easier.

I think I understand what you were saying. And, yes, the point could also be made that Vernon wasn't making much effort to be cordial to James. Both are culpable in the sour turn the dinner took (as far as we know Lily and Petunia were getting on fine and/or were trying to wrangle their partner the whole night). The point in my reply wasn't that Vernon was innocent in the situation it's that I wonder less about how James and Vernon's world views influenced the evening and more about how their seemingly type-A personalities reacted when confronted with someone who was, in Vernon's case, unwilling to be patronized and, in James's case, someone who hell bent on making him feel inferior. Neither were the type to back down so the dinner never would have gone well unless one or the other of the men had a lobotomy.