A Song of Ice and Fire

[DeliciousMoon]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

And look how horrible of a leader she has been since then She nearly killed her entire Khalasar in the Red Waste, then decided to free slaves in the Slaver Cities without ever thinking of the consequences and helped in making matters ever more cruel and has now settled them in a city that not only is rebelling but facing an outside force and deadly diseases.

I'm not sure what you would have had her do to save her people from the Red Waste? She was pretty much out of options. If they went any other way they would be killed or taken as slaves. She realized the consequences about freeing the slaves after it happened and then stayed to try and make it work. The situation was pretty messed up by then. What was she supposed to do here - just let the freed be taken as slaves again? Her problem was she wasn't aggressive enough (losing the fire and blood targaryen in her) but the end of the book pretty much tells us she realises that this is what she needs to conquer and rule.

Spoiler: show

No, because Aegon is an imposter, not a real Targaryen.

Was this in the books or is it just a theory? I missed this.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

I'm not sure what you would have had her do to save her people from the Red Waste? She was pretty much out of options. If they went any other way they would be killed or taken as slaves. She realized the consequences about freeing the slaves after it happened and then stayed to try and make it work. The situation was pretty messed up by then. What was she supposed to do here - just let the freed be taken as slaves again? Her problem was she wasn't aggressive enough (losing the fire and blood targaryen in her) but the end of the book pretty much tells us she realises that this is what she needs to conquer and rule.

I agree with your assessment that she isn't aggressive enough. And because of that she has failed miserably at ruling. Her last chapter does show progress, but judging her based on the majority of her chapters, not just this one, and I think she's been a terrible ruler and strongly believe that people only want her as queen because of the structure of the story. Perhaps later on she'll show her merit as a ruler but so far he hasn't and we can't base our feelings about characters on what might be.

Spoiler: show

Was this in the books or is it just a theory? I missed this.

It is never explicitly said in the books, but way back in Clash Dany was told she needs to defeat the mummer's dragon which was described as a cloth dragon propped up on poles to amuse the masses and I think (as do many others) that

Spoiler: show

this refers to Aegon. I also would be very angry with Martin if waited so long to introduce this important character if he were real.

[Exodus2000]

I actually saw the tv series before reading the books, and the series was so incredibly well made that it inspired me to get the books Usually it works the other way around: I read the book first and then see the film/series. What I like about this series is that the characters are not black and white, they all have good and bad sides; One moment you love someone and and then that character does something nasty and you start to hate him... Only to love him again after a while I especially like Tyrion, he is such a charmer

[HMN]

Originally Posted by xhanax315

Finally finished A Feast for Crows... Why is it taking me so long to move through this series??

I just started it - but after plowing through the first 3, I'm feeling like I want to bail on this one. It seems that it's just a whole new cast of characters that I have to get to know that Martin will only kill off page by page. Please someone share why I should slog through this one too.

Also I'm furious with him

Spoiler: show

for killing Rob and Catelyn and then - at least seemingly to me right now - bringing Catelyn back from the dead. Seriously? He's losing me on that one. Bran and Rickon are one thing but to say the throat was sliced, have Arya's wolf find her and then she turns out to be ok? Too much fantasy for me.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by HMN

and then she turns out to be ok?

But she isn't okay. She's undead and her whole personality is changed. All she sees is vengeance. We know that bringing people back is not without consequences and that it becomes harder every time. So her being around is incredibly creepy and disturbing but hardly a magical cop-out, in my view.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by HMN

I just started it - but after plowing through the first 3, I'm feeling like I want to bail on this one. It seems that it's just a whole new cast of characters that I have to get to know that Martin will only kill off page by page. Please someone share why I should slog through this one too.

Also I'm furious with him

Spoiler: show

for killing Rob and Catelyn and then - at least seemingly to me right now - bringing Catelyn back from the dead. Seriously? He's losing me on that one. Bran and Rickon are one thing but to say the throat was sliced, have Arya's wolf find her and then she turns out to be ok? Too much fantasy for me.

Spoiler: show

Also the whole bringing someone back from the dead thing has long been established in the series with the idea of Beric Dondarion who was repeatedly killed by many different people, but always seemed to popped back up. It's not something Martin just randomly came up with for Catelyn.

Also, I find it humorous that you say this is "too much fantasy" considering we're on a Harry Potter forum and ASoIaF has next to no fantasy compared to Harry Potter.

As for why you should stick around for the series, well maybe you shouldn't. If you don't appreciate the world building that Feast offers, then you're not going to like Dance. These two books really take the readers on a world building tour that allows characters to experience Braavos, and Dorne and Meereen and while I didn't care for all of the plots in those locations (mainly Meereen) I still care immensely what happens to these characters and I love the world and lore and history that Martin has created. If that isn't for you then, don't stick around.

Originally Posted by Moriath

But she isn't okay. She's undead and her whole personality is changed. All she sees is vengeance. We know that bringing people back is not without consequences and that it becomes harder every time. So her being around is incredibly creepy and disturbing but hardly a magical cop-out, in my view.

I agree.

Spoiler: show

Martin has Catelyn come back in the same book in which she died. If he didn't want her to die, he could have just rewritten. Also like I said above, the idea that a Red Priest can bring someone back from the dead has long been established in the series with Beric Dondarrion, at least from Clash of Kings we heard rumors about him being dead or not dead and we get more confirmation as the series progresses. So I did not ever feel like it was a cop-out.

ETA:

Spoiler: show

The deaths of Robb and Catelyn are essential to the story. It absolutely sucks because they were the last chance we saw for revenge for Ned and the North thriving, but it pushes the story along. Martin doesn't kill characters for the hell of it - he does it to serve the plot. And even though when I initially read the deaths of Robb and Catelyn I had to put the books down out of grief, I look back and realize how the story has changed because of what happened and how the story HAD to change that way.

So I take HMN's criticism that Martin will just kill characters off page after page as a little ridiculous. Martin kills big characters certainly, he stays true to real life like that, but he never flippantly slaughters his characters, even though it may seem that way.

[HMN]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

Also, I find it humorous that you say this is "too much fantasy" considering we're on a Harry Potter forum and ASoIaF has next to no fantasy compared to Harry Potter.

Well when you put it that way... I think while Jo had a lot of fantasy, she kept some ground rules firm - you can't revive the dead for one. Her characters take risks, get hurt, but death is final to her. Jo's magic is very logical, I find Martin's magic very convenient. When he needs to get out of a rough spot, suddenly it's magical. Like suddenly the whole Strak clan are Wargs. It's one thing to say that Bran is, and another to give the whole family powers when it is convenient in the storytelling.

I get that when the dragons were born magic that hadn't been seen in the realm in ages starts to come back, that makes sense. So when Bran is able to warg it up, shouldn't all the Starks be able to around the same time. Or is Bran more magical than the others and if so, please give me an explanation why. Just because Jojen has a green dream? That's not logic - that's an excuse.

I'm fine with things like the Others, the Wights, the dragons... The years long summers and winters - I can handle that. I don't mind fantastical elements like poisons that can kill one character but not another. But either there is no set up to the magic we see, or it seems that there are no rules behind the magic. I feel like I will have to read another 1500 pages to have the magic make sense. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't yet see the logic in Martin's fantasy.

As for why you should stick around for the series, well maybe you shouldn't. If you don't appreciate the world building that Feast offers, then you're not going to like Dance. These two books really take the readers on a world building tour that allows characters to experience Braavos, and Dorne and Meereen and while I didn't care for all of the plots in those locations (mainly Meereen) I still care immensely what happens to these characters and I love the world and lore and history that Martin has created. If that isn't for you then, don't stick around

I think I'm just really angry with Martin at this point. I read the books with a map so that I can track everyone's progress. I like his world building (otherwise I wouldn't have gotten this far!), I've invested hours and emotion in his story but after 1500 pages or so there is just no resolution to anything. I fall in love with a character and then they die, or they get close to home and then there is a blood bath.

I picked up the series knowing that Martin "breaks all the literary rules" but I feel like I'm being toyed with and I would just appreciate some resolution on something before a new land and a slew of new characters is introduced into the mix. I want to like it, I find it interesting, but I don't think I'm enjoying it. I think I'm reading because I want some closure to any of the multiple story lines that are wide open midway through the series.

So I take HMN's criticism that Martin will just kill characters off page after page as a little ridiculous. Martin kills big characters certainly, he stays true to real life like that, but he never flippantly slaughters his characters, even though it may seem that way.

Maybe I'm not in far enough yet to see that the multiple deaths do have reasoning behind them. And I think it's frustrating that you think so-and-so is dead, yet they're not! It's like the boy who cried wolf to me at this point. I just find myself waiting for the next character I get to know meet their demise. Breinne of Tarth - I have a feeling you're next!

Or maybe I just don't get it and while I'm expecting a story with a beginning, middle and an end, it's really just a stream of conscience or a 'day in the life' and not meant to have a traditional story structure.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by HMN

Well when you put it that way... I think while Jo had a lot of fantasy, she kept some ground rules firm - you can't revive the dead for one. Her characters take risks, get hurt, but death is final to her. Jo's magic is very logical, I find Martin's magic very convenient. When he needs to get out of a rough spot, suddenly it's magical. Like suddenly the whole Strak clan are Wargs. It's one thing to say that Bran is, and another to give the whole family powers when it is convenient in the storytelling.

I get that when the dragons were born magic that hadn't been seen in the realm in ages starts to come back, that makes sense. So when Bran is able to warg it up, shouldn't all the Starks be able to around the same time. Or is Bran more magical than the others and if so, please give me an explanation why. Just because Jojen has a green dream? That's not logic - that's an excuse.

The logic behind it is because Bran has trained at it harder than any of the other Starks and he is the only one to realize he is not just dreaming but actually slipping his skin. Arya (until Dance) thinks that she's jut having dreams about this wolf and doesn't realize it's Nymeria and while Jon might realized he can actually see things through Ghosts eyes it's never been something he has shown an interest in harnessing. Sansa's wolf is dead so she isn't a warg and Robb and Rickon we don't really know about because we don't have their PoVs. But Bran has been training for at least 3 books how to slip into Summer and control the actions, not just go along for the ride. I really don't see how anyone could think Martin uses the warging especially "to get out of a tight spot" because I can't think of any examples of Arya or Jon doing that at all.

I also don't think Martin has used other forms of magic for convenience either. Like I explained with Catelyn - the magic for that was canonical long before it was used on Catelyn and if Martin just wanted her alive he just had to rewrite a chapter a few chapters earlier. Martin wanted Catelyn to die and for Lady Stoneheart to be born to serve the story, not for convenience.

I'm fine with things like the Others, the Wights, the dragons... The years long summers and winters - I can handle that. I don't mind fantastical elements like poisons that can kill one character but not another. But either there is no set up to the magic we see, or it seems that there are no rules behind the magic. I feel like I will have to read another 1500 pages to have the magic make sense. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't yet see the logic in Martin's fantasy.

Again, I disagree. I see plenty of setup and rules. We know that Red Priests and Priestesses are trained in magic to serve R'hllor. That's why they can read flames and, before the dragons came back, preformed this religious ritual for the dead, but when the ritual was preformed on Beric Dondarrion it had a new effect - it brought him back to life, repeatedly. Each time he was a little bit less than before. Dondarrion, who felt he had lived enough gave up that privilege for Catelyn. As for the Starks and warging I think from Bran's first chapter it is well established that there is going to be a special connection between the wolves and the Starks, so I again don't see the gripe.

I think I'm just really angry with Martin at this point. I read the books with a map so that I can track everyone's progress. I like his world building (otherwise I wouldn't have gotten this far!), I've invested hours and emotion in his story but after 1500 pages or so there is just no resolution to anything. I fall in love with a character and then they die, or they get close to home and then there is a blood bath.

Isn't that just more realistic? With stories like Harry Potter everything is wrapped up nicely at the end of his school year because it is a more simplistic and, in my opinion, a less realistic narrative. Martin's stories are on-going, they cross the boundaries of the books, they're about character growth that exceeds the binding of one book.

Maybe I'm not in far enough yet to see that the multiple deaths do have reasoning behind them. And I think it's frustrating that you think so-and-so is dead, yet they're not! It's like the boy who cried wolf to me at this point. I just find myself waiting for the next character I get to know meet their demise. Breinne of Tarth - I have a feeling you're next!

Martin does like the use of the false-death and it can get annoying after a while, especially once you start to question if ANYONE is dead if you haven't physically seen their head chopped off. But I don't get the complaints about Martin killing too many characters. It's real, it's gritty, it's war. But also I feel like his knack for killing anyone and everyone is exaggerated all the time. What main PoV characters has Martin killed? Ned and Catelyn. That's really it. Ned's death set in motion this idea that Martin breaks all traditional norms with his main characters and no one is safe, but that really isn't true. I don't ever expect Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, Tyrion to die because we've had a lot invested in them, and Martin isn't really that brutal of a killer as his reputation would make it seem. He has enough large killings that anger fans and make them bemoan that he slaughters everyone, but he really doesn't. And, as I said before, any large character deaths he has in the series goes on to benefit the narrative. And maybe you aren't far enough to see the benefits of Robb or Catelyn's deaths on the narrative, but think back about how Renly and especially Ned's death set in motion so many things that moved the story along. That is how Martin uses large character deaths all the time.

Or maybe I just don't get it and while I'm expecting a story with a beginning, middle and an end, it's really just a stream of conscience or a 'day in the life' and not meant to have a traditional story structure.

This is a fair comment but not a criticism I share. These books are one long narrative separated for convenience of binding but I am not bothered by that. This story does have a beginning, a middle and (hopefully) will have an end bit they're not contained in one book - they'll be spread across 7. And that format isn't for everyone , but I don't think that's something wrong Martin's story. In fact, it is something that I greatly enjoyed while flying through the books the first time because I could put down Game of Thrones and immediately pick up Clash of Kings and keep going. To be in the middle of this long narrative can be frustrating, but I am not bothered by it as I look forward to an ultimate ending in the final book.

[DeliciousMoon]

Originally Posted by HMN

Well when you put it that way... I think while Jo had a lot of fantasy, she kept some ground rules firm - you can't revive the dead for one. Her characters take risks, get hurt, but death is final to her. Jo's magic is very logical, I find Martin's magic very convenient. When he needs to get out of a rough spot, suddenly it's magical. Like suddenly the whole Strak clan are Wargs. It's one thing to say that Bran is, and another to give the whole family powers when it is convenient in the storytelling.

The Stark children were always Wargs. Martin set it up in the second chapter of the series by having them discover the direwolves. Their connections to their wolves made it easier to start warging. JKR also did pretty much bring Harry back from the dead at the end of the seventh book. At least in Martin's world, the dead come back with memory loss or exaggerations of what they once were. They're not the same characters.

I get that when the dragons were born magic that hadn't been seen in the realm in ages starts to come back, that makes sense. So when Bran is able to warg it up, shouldn't all the Starks be able to around the same time. Or is Bran more magical than the others and if so, please give me an explanation why. Just because Jojen has a green dream? That's not logic - that's an excuse.

You have to keep in mind that Bran had people explaining these things to him. Plus he can't walk and is bored around Winterfell a lot, which could give him more time to practice warging. Everyone else is running around with no one to tell them anything about it, and without any time to really think about this stuff. It makes perfect sense imo.

Maybe I'm not in far enough yet to see that the multiple deaths do have reasoning behind them.

The books would be very different if certain characters had lived imo

Spoiler: show

Eg. if Catelyn and Robb were still alive, they might have gone back to Winterfell as planned and have prevented a lot of the things the Boltons have done. And Ned's death was a huge catalyst for the events of the rest of the books. Drogo's death left Dany alone, and completely in charge. The list goes on!

I think that's enough of a reason to kill any character. Not to mention that it would be unrealistic to have all the characters survive in the world Martin's created.

[Arya_]

I love the books so far, but they're so big and full of characters that half way through a book, I will forget what that character was.

My favourite characters are: Jon, he reminds me a little of Harry in personality. His immaturity in a dark fierce world still shines through his black robes.

I like Arya (as you can tell with my username) and also Tyrion. I like his witty lines.

[HMN]

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

The Stark children were always Wargs. Martin set it up in the second chapter of the series by having them discover the direwolves. Their connections to their wolves made it easier to start warging. JKR also did pretty much bring Harry back from the dead at the end of the seventh book. At least in Martin's world, the dead come back with memory loss or exaggerations of what they once were. They're not the same characters.

When there was all the speculation about what would happen in DH and how the HP series would end - I posted (I should dig it up) that the worst possible ending for HP would be that Harry die but not die. And that's exactly what happened. I had just seen Beauty and the Beast on Broadway and at the end of the story when Beast survives because love broke the spell, I knew it was how HP would end, and it wasn't what I wanted.

I think another aspect of my frustration is that the inhabitants of Westeros (through the first 3 1/2 books at least), don't know that all the magical happenings are connected to the whole dragon thing. And as a reader, I'm glad I caught that one line in whatever part of the story was that explained it.

I'm curious to see how this Red Priest/Priestess thing works itself out. Is it the same magic? Is it really the power of R'hllor or is it the same string of magic. These are things I would like explained better in the books. Just because the characters aren't aware, doesn't mean the reader has to not understand either.

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

Martin does like the use of the false-death and it can get annoying after a while, especially once you start to question if ANYONE is dead if you haven't physically seen their head chopped off. But I don't get the complaints about Martin killing too many characters. It's real, it's gritty, it's war. But also I feel like his knack for killing anyone and everyone is exaggerated all the time. What main PoV characters has Martin killed? Ned and Catelyn.

Well there is also:

Spoiler: show

Drogo, Robert Baratheon, Rob, Renly, Joffrey, Lord Tywin, and Winterfell! The people of Winterfell and the castle itself, which I see as a huge main character. While many of them make sense to die, it's still a lot. And there is a plethora of secondary characters that you follow along for a while, then they die. Syrio, Yoren, Ygritte, Lysa Tully, Baelon Greyjoy - and Theon too? Sandor Clegane? And so many others.

Ned makes sense because that death is the catalyst for the next 3 books.

Like I implied in my last post, I guess I just like more of a traditional structure, and I like to have an idea where the journey in the story is taking me.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by HMN

Well there is also:

Spoiler: show

Drogo, Robert Baratheon, Rob, Renly, Joffrey, Lord Tywin, and Winterfell! The people of Winterfell and the castle itself, which I see as a huge main character. While many of them make sense to die, it's still a lot. And there is a plethora of secondary characters that you follow along for a while, then they die. Syrio, Yoren, Ygritte, Lysa Tully, Baelon Greyjoy - and Theon too? Sandor Clegane? And so many others.

Ned makes sense because that death is the catalyst for the next 3 books.

Spoiler: show

Apart from Theon, none of them are point of view characters and Theon does not die. I think these deaths all served a point. We wouldn't be where we are without Robert Baratheon dying ignorant of his children's true parentage. Drogo's death liberated Dany and made her a free agent. Robb, Renly and Joffrey had to die so that there would be new, less obvious major players in the game. With Robb gone and his siblings all over the realm, who's the next heir of Winterfell? That's relevant. Lord Tywin, equally, offered stability and control. With him gone, everything's up in the air again because none of his children have his combination of authority, wits and ruthlessness. Syrio and Yoren cared for Arya and she would not be lost if they had gone on living. Ygritte was Jon's big loss etc. etc.

[HMN]

I just finished A Feast for Crows - and you guessed it, I'm upset with Mr. Martin again.

I swear to you, just as I said to myself that I loved Pod and Brienne together,

Spoiler: show

why oh why did they have to die. Their story and quest could have been eliminated entirely, or they could have been given a real purpose. Even if it was just to tell Gendry who his parentage was. But no, it's just all a big tease and then they die.

I remember a friend of mine telling me that JKR was too popular and her books were too loved to be edited down properly. I, of course, disagreed, but I now see what this friend was referring to when I read A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Lord Godric]

I'll just say don't believe anyone is dead unless you see them die.

I do agree that parts of Feast needed to be edited down, and that continues with Dance. But I love Martin's world and won't complain about seeing too much of it.

[HMN]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

I'll just say don't believe anyone is dead unless you see them die.

Well then, I hope Pod has a purpose at the end of the day. He's grown on me for some reason.

[HMN]

i'm 1/4 of the way through A Dance with Dragons and need some clarification...

Why does Martin use the name Reek for 2 characters? I see that Mr. Greyjoy isn't dead, but now I'm wondering if Reek 1 will show again. And will there be more confusion?

And while I'm here - can anyone clarify for me Wylla. I can't remember if she was mentioned with Gendry or if she's Jon Snow's mother. And are there 2 Wylla's because the age difference doesn't seem to work out with either of those boys. I'm confused!

[Lord Godric]

Reek was, in Clash of Kings, the alias for Ramsey Bolton, b.astard son of Roose Bolton who turned on Theon and captured him at the end of Clash. Really, Reek originally was Ramsey's manservant who was killed by the Ironborn when they invaded and Ramsey, to survive, assumed his identity. But since the end of Clash Ramsey (aka Reek 1) has held Theon (aka Reek 2) prisoner and now refers to him as his Reek.

As for Wylla she was, supposedly, the mother of Jon Snow although that is still a large mystery. And Wylla may or may not be Jon's actual mother. She has no connection to Gendry, however. Gendry's mom was just a tavern worker who died young.

[HMN]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

Reek was, in Clash of Kings, the alias for Ramsey Bolton, b.astard son of Roose Bolton who turned on Theon and captured him at the end of Clash. Really, Reek originally was Ramsey's manservant who was killed by the Ironborn when they invaded and Ramsey, to survive, assumed his identity. But since the end of Clash Ramsey (aka Reek 1) has held Theon (aka Reek 2) prisoner and now refers to him as his Reek.

As for Wylla she was, supposedly, the mother of Jon Snow although that is still a large mystery. And Wylla may or may not be Jon's actual mother. She has no connection to Gendry, however. Gendry's mom was just a tavern worker who died young.

THANK YOU.

I totally missed that Reek 1 was Ramsey Bolton. But now it makes sense. I think the whole Bolton storyline was hard for me to follow. Perhaps because they were always mentioned, but there was no Bolton PoV. So Reek 1 is at Winterfell and convinces Theon that he can get the Dreadfort to help, and then when the other northerners arrive, they attack them. But Theon is taken and becomes Reek 2. Right?

I think I thought of Gendry because at some point it is mentioned that he was a milk brother of someone. Can't remember who. But I recall it was one of those moments where the story started to match up parentage.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by HMN

THANK YOU.

I totally missed that Reek 1 was Ramsey Bolton. But now it makes sense. I think the whole Bolton storyline was hard for me to follow. Perhaps because they were always mentioned, but there was no Bolton PoV. So Reek 1 is at Winterfell and convinces Theon that he can get the Dreadfort to help, and then when the other northerners arrive, they attack them. But Theon is taken and becomes Reek 2. Right?

Right. Reek 1 convinced Theon to let him rally men from the Dreadfort and Theon let him. But when he returned he and his men betrayed Theon, killing all his men, along with the inhabitants of Winterfell and then set fire to Winterfell before taking Theon prisoner as Reek 2.

I think I thought of Gendry because at some point it is mentioned that he was a milk brother of someone. Can't remember who. But I recall it was one of those moments where the story started to match up parentage.

Well when Arya is traveling with the Brotherhood Without Banners she meets Edric Dayne, who mentions that he was wet nursed by the same Wylla who wet nursed (but did not give birth to) Jon Snow and he refers to them as "Milk Brothers." That might be who you're thinking of. Its just one of the many complicated pieces in the "who is Jon's mother" mystery.

[HMN]

Of course I just got to the point of A Dance with Dragons that explains it all.

All the false identities in this book is driving me a bit crazy! I'm about 40% in and all of a sudden nobody is who they are calling themselves. And now I'm questioning if so-and-so is really who they say they are in the first place. Young Griff for example.