James and Lily

[Moriath]

It''s a bank holiday for lots of us and that usually means food, family and fervently-fought debates on CoS. I I would like to ask you all to avoid engaging in a circular discussion that will make our eyes bleed.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by kmhm

Even if James' parents were still alive. What if James had been ill towards them? Aside from Harry being grandparentless or relativeless aside from the Dursleys. One of the reason why he went to the Dursleys is to be far off from all the fame, magic, and glory he has.

James and Lily both loved Harry very much but in this case neither James nor his parents were a factor when Dumbledore chose where to leave baby Harry. Lily, when she refused to step aside when Voldemort came to kill Harry, created some type of protective magic around Harry, and Dumbledore wanted to use this magic to keep Harry safe, and in order to do this, he needed Harry to live with a blood relative of Lily's - in this case, Petunia.

[Melaszka]

I've deleted a couple of posts because they were off-topic for this thread. This thread is about James and Lily's relationship - if you want to discuss why Dumbledore chose to leave Harry with the Dursleys, that really needs to go on the Dumbledore thread or the Dursleys' threads, depending on what angle you are coming at it from.

[StarryVeil]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

The problem is that in OotP James is shown playing with a snitch that he nicked, or stole, from someone else apparently - perhaps from a team that had actually beaten Gryffindor?

I actually didn't read much into the real life Snitch he was playing with. For me, it was just a cool little thing that would be perfect for showing off with and went well with James's love of Quidditch. JKR had to explain how it'd came into his possession so she had him explain to Sirius how he'd "nicked" it (because there was no other possible way for it to be in his possession).

Originally Posted by FurryDice

I don't think there's anything to suggest that James subconsciously (or consciously) compared Lily to the Snitch. Sure, he was showing off with it, to impress her and others. However, a guy showing off with an object to impress a girl does not mean that he compares her in any way to that object.

There were two Snitches in that scene: the real Snitch James was showing off with and the one he drew on a scrap piece of parchment. I was speaking of the latter.

I really don't see any analogy between Lily and a Snitch. Lily is not an inanimate object with no choice but to belong to the first to "catch" her. She is a character, not an object/possession. Unlike the snitch, she was able to choose who she would be with.

Going with the theory that James did compare Lily to the Snitch by writing her initials on a drawing of it (this also is debatable, as LilyDreamsOn has mentioned), I don't think he was objectifying her. I think he simply used the Snitch as a metaphor for Lily because, in his mind, she and the Snitch shared some similar qualities. By thinking so, I don't feel he was regarding her as something to be possessed in order to win some "game". Sort of like how Snow White is as white as snow...and Lily is as elusive as a Snitch.

Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn

I'd just like to point out that there was nothing in the text about James doodling her initials on a snitch.



Just sounds like two different doodles. So I doubt JKR was going for any symbolism here, or comparing Lily to the snitch whatsoever; she was just showing that James was so confident in his answers that he didn't need to review them, and that he already had a significant crush on Lily.

I admit, when I first read the book I thought so too. Then, after reading this popular fandom interpretation (that he had inscribed her initials on the drawing of the Snitch), I started thinking about it and it seemed like a pretty meaningful analogy. So, although it's true that there's nothing to say for sure that he'd written the initials on the Snitch, I think it's a pretty plausible theory. But I'm fine with it both ways.

Originally Posted by LilyDreamsOn

James playing with a snitch in front of Lily also doesn't really indicate that he saw her as a snitch, IMO. I doubt JKR was trying to make a big statement about him wanting to capture her like a possession when the rest of the symbolism relating to their relationship was entirely positive.

I completely agree. Although I'm very open to the theory that there's some symbolism behind the drawing Snitch and her initials, I never thought it was connected to the real Snitch. As I've mentioned above, I always thought the real Snitch was just a convenient object to present James's habit of showing off for Lily with. I, too, doubt JKR would have intended to display negative symbolism in regard to the couple that gave birth to Harry, the person who arguably has the most capacity for love in the whole series.

I think she even went out of her way to show that Harry was born out of pure love, whereas Voldemort was born out of a loveless union (she confirmed this part in an interview).

I felt so warm and fuzzy inside when I saw that interview where she spoke about how Harry was conceived in love in contrast to Voldemort being conceived in a sham marriage. Same feeling when I learnt Lily's Patronus was a doe.

Originally Posted by Moriath

It''s a bank holiday for lots of us and that usually means food, family and fervently-fought debates on CoS. I I would like to ask you all to avoid engaging in a circular discussion that will make our eyes bleed.

Hehe, sorry, can't help it. But I'll try to refrain from circular debates, sure.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

I actually didn't read much into the real life Snitch he was playing with. For me, it was just a cool little thing that would be perfect for showing off with and went well with James's love of Quidditch. JKR had to explain how it'd came into his possession so she had him explain to Sirius how he'd "nicked" it (because there was no other possible way for it to be in his possession).

I'm one of those people who never thought of the snitch as symbolizing anything or James's doodling of the snitch and then Lily's initials as symbolizing anything. I thought James playing with the snitch was because it was the 'coolest' ball on the quidditch field (being winged and golden) and it wouldn't have looked nearly as 'cool' for James to have a big red basketball-sized thing tucked under his arm or tossing that around. He had the snitch because it was the coolest ball.

As for how or why James could have acquired it, I imagine that, since snitches have flesh memories and a new one is required for every match played, that there are a heck of a lot of spare snitches laying around (at least six games a year require "fresh" snitches) - ones from games that have already been played probably become the ones used during practices. I don't imagine James is the first person to ever steal one, either, and it doesn't appear as though the seeker gets to keep the snitches they catch during a match since Harry never got to keep any of his so there are probably hundreds of them in a box somewhere - unless there's some sort of snitch recycling program we haven't been told about

Going with the theory that James did compare Lily to the Snitch by writing her initials on a drawing of it (this also is debatable, as LilyDreamsOn has mentioned), I don't think he was objectifying her. I think he simply used the Snitch as a metaphor for Lily because, in his mind, she and the Snitch shared some similar qualities. By thinking so, I don't feel he was regarding her as something to be possessed in order to win some "game". Sort of like how Snow White is as white as snow...and Lily is as elusive as a Snitch.

Do you think James was that cognizant of that fact? Do you think he knew he thought of Lily as being as elucive as a snitch? I'm not so sure. I think if there was a comparison to be made there it was on JKR's part and I think it would have been more hit-you-over-the-head aparent, as with some of her other symbolism or imagery (such as Harry's polyjuice being golden or Crabbe and Goyles being bogey-colored -- hit you over the head...)

I admit, when I first read the book I thought so too. Then, after reading this popular fandom interpretation (that he had inscribed her initials on the drawing of the Snitch), I started thinking about it and it seemed like a pretty meaningful analogy. So, although it's true that there's nothing to say for sure that he'd written the initials on the Snitch, I think it's a pretty plausible theory. But I'm fine with it both ways.

I thought they were two different doodles, too. I must bear this thread in mind when I get to rereading OOTP soon.

I completely agree. Although I'm very open to the theory that there's some symbolism behind the drawing Snitch and her initials, I never thought it was connected to the real Snitch. As I've mentioned above, I always thought the real Snitch was just a convenient object to present James's habit of showing off for Lily with. I, too, doubt JKR would have intended to display negative symbolism in regard to the couple that gave birth to Harry, the person who arguably has the most capacity for love in the whole series.

Maybe I'm being thick here but I never got the impression that the only reason James ever showed off was to impress Lily. I'm sure some of it was (as in SWM with the snitch) but with how James is described I got the impression that he was a bit of a natural show off anyway and it just got ramped up a notch when Lily was around.

I felt so warm and fuzzy inside when I saw that interview where she spoke about how Harry was conceived in love in contrast to Voldemort being conceived in a sham marriage. Same feeling when I learnt Lily's Patronus was a doe.

I think it's a very intersting comparison to make between Harry and Voldemort. As for Lily's patronus, I always thought that was a groaner. I guess I like when things aren't always a perfect match, all I's dotted, all T's crossed, everything fits together perfectly. Though, to be fair, we don't know for certain that James's patronus was a stag; we know his animagus form was.

[JMUpotterfan]

I have been curious for a while how these two ended up together. I think I became more interested after seeing how james mistreated Snape. This is why I would love to read prequels. I would much prefer to have a prequel to give background on this relationship and others than the encyclopedia that is in the works.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

As for Lily's patronus, I always thought that was a groaner. I guess I like when things aren't always a perfect match, all I's dotted, all T's crossed, everything fits together perfectly. Though, to be fair, we don't know for certain that James's patronus was a stag; we know his animagus form was.

However, we are shown an example of the same animagus/patronus form -- Minerva's cat. Maybe we're supposed to assume from that example that Potter's is the same as well.

[StarryVeil]

And JKR herself has confirmed his Patronus was a stag in an interview.

[merrymarge]

to me, there were two things that James loved. Quidditch and Lily. So, it seems natural that he would draw a picture of a snitch and put Lily's initials inside. I didn't think it meant anything else.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by JMUpotterfan

I have been curious for a while how these two ended up together. I think I became more interested after seeing how james mistreated Snape. This is why I would love to read prequels. I would much prefer to have a prequel to give background on this relationship and others than the encyclopedia that is in the works.

I agree, I so badly prefer a sequel to the encyclopedia as the encyclopedia to me is rehashing things we already at least know a little bit about. We know next to nothing of James and Lily's relationship - we know more of Lily and Snape, a friendship that feel apart in a big way, than we know about the relationship Lily chose to be in for the rest of her life.

In my own mind, Lily finally began to allow herself to see James in a positive light once Snape was out of the picture and that's really where the door opened for the possibility of them having a relationship. Had she and Snape continued to be friends after SWM than Lily and James would never have happened. To me, Snape was the one poisoning Lily and James's chances by his own prejudices.

Originally Posted by merrymarge

to me, there were two things that James loved. Quidditch and Lily. So, it seems natural that he would draw a picture of a snitch and put Lily's initials inside. I didn't think it meant anything else.

I don't know if I agree with this. Yes, James seemed to love Quidditch but to say that he loved Lily in his fifth year is a stretch to me. I think he had a crush on her, was a little infatuated with her but for that to turn into love to me they needed to be in a relationship and reciprocate one anothers feelings. Additionally, I don't believe for a second that quidditch and Lily were the only two things James loved - I'm sure he loved his friends and family, too, for instance. In SWM I'd say James's doodling is indicative of two things that were consuming his mind - Quidditch, which probably just ended a couple weeks before, and the girl he had a crush on.

[MsJPotter]

I think Lily simply found James attractive. He wasn't a bigot, he wasn't enthralled by the Dark Arts, He didn't hang around with a bunch of Death Eaters wanna-be's. He had a sense of humour, he was kind and he had standards. He was brave, he was one of the two smartest kids in school and best friends with the other smartest kid. What was not to like. I guess he also had one other sterling quality in her eyes, he liked her for herself, not for what she represented in his eyes. I guess she didn't have to worry when waliking down a corridor with James that she would be called a 'Mudblood' and he would find that funny or something to be ignored.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

I think Lily simply found James attractive. He wasn't a bigot, he wasn't enthralled by the Dark Arts, He didn't hang around with a bunch of Death Eaters wanna-be's. He had a sense of humour, he was kind and he had standards. He was brave, he was one of the two smartest kids in school and best friends with the other smartest kid. What was not to like. I guess he also had one other sterling quality in her eyes, he liked her for herself, not for what she represented in his eyes. I guess she didn't have to worry when waliking down a corridor with James that she would be called a 'Mudblood' and he would find that funny or something to be ignored.

I agree, I just meant that Lily might have felt very conflicted having a crush on James and being Snape's best friend when James and Snape were basically sworn enemies. If she felt the need to be loyal she would be loyal to the friend she already had. Friends often take their friend's side regardless of the situation or whether they think the argument is right or wrong simply to show loyalty and solidarity with that friend. I have a feeling that that played a part in Lily appearing to not "like" James for so long; she was sort of pressured by her friend to not like her friend's enemy lest that friend think she is betraying him. This is confusing.

Basically, I agree that Lily probably just found James attractive in all the ways you list above. My only argument is the motivation for why she never acted on her attraction until seventh year - that motivation being Snape laying down the law where James is concerned: "If you like him in any way shape or form than there is no possibility of us remaining friends." And it seems Lily valued Snape's friendship enough to abstain from publicly fancying James until after their friendship fell apart.

[MsJPotter]

=Goddess_Clio;6009305]I agree, I just meant that Lily might have felt very conflicted having a crush on James and being Snape's best friend when James and Snape were basically sworn enemies. If she felt the need to be loyal she would be loyal to the friend she already had. Friends often take their friend's side regardless of the situation or whether they think the argument is right or wrong simply to show loyalty and solidarity with that friend. I have a feeling that that played a part in Lily appearing to not "like" James for so long; she was sort of pressured by her friend to not like her friend's enemy lest that friend think she is betraying him. This is confusing.

I don't think it's confusing at all. According to canon Lily didn't go near James while she was friends with Snape. After Snape smashed their friendship to pieces she waited a couple of years before going out with James. I kinda think that Lily got burned real bad by Snape's betrayal, she waited a long time before starting up a friendship with another boy

Basically, I agree that Lily probably just found James attractive in all the ways you list above. My only argument is the motivation for why she never acted on her attraction until seventh year - that motivation being Snape laying down the law where James is concerned: "If you like him in any way shape or form than there is no possibility of us remaining friends." And it seems Lily valued Snape's friendship enough to abstain from publicly fancying James until after their friendship fell apart.

Well like I said she waited 2 years. 2 years is a heck of a long time when you're 15-16-17. She didn't leap into friendship with James. She waited to commit to another friend. James didn't really impress her too much when he was 15, he had to grow up a lot. She probably had a lot of growing up to do as well. I can imagine her feeling stupid and immature for not seeing just how bad Snape had become. She probably didn't trust herself to make a valued judgement for a long time. Like I said 2 years is a long time to a real young kid and she was just a kid when Snape gutted her with his insult.

[Melaszka]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

Well like I said she waited 2 years.

I don't think she could have waited quite that long. SWM happens at the end of year 5, after they've taken their OWLs, and she starts dating James partway through Year 7 - 18 months at most. But it was quite a long time.

2 years is a heck of a long time when you're 15-16-17. She didn't leap into friendship with James. She waited to commit to another friend.

In fairness, she already had other friends - Mary McDonald and the other girls we glimpse her with in SWM - so, devastating as Snape's reprehensible behaviour must have been, it's not like she goes 2 years without having a close friend. She is slow to commit herself to a boyfriend (in a dating sense), but I don't see that as necessarily being the result of Snape's betrayal . After all, Snape was never her boyfriend, so the eventual relationship she has with James is a very different one from the one she had with him. And canon shows her being very wary of James before Snape's betrayal, so it's not like there's a sudden reluctance to get close to him which appears after SWM. Nor do I see it as being her respecting Snape's wishes regarding James - I don't think he has any right to dictate who she can and cannot be friends with and I'd hate to see the books as suggesting he does.

The reason we are given in canon as to why she doesn't date James (both before and after SWM) is that she is unimpressed with James's behaviour, especially to other students. When he grows up a bit and changes that behaviour, she dates him. IMO that's enough of a reason, without having to factor Snape in, in one way or another (although I take your point that Snape's behaviour must have had a big impact on her and could have affected her confidence in relationships).

[ShadowSonic]

About being "impressed with his intelligence", I always thought it was a little strange how they mentioned that James and Sirius were both so "brilliant". We never see either of them doing anything really smart at all whenever we DO see them (James in flashbacks, Sirius as an adult). There's the animagus thing, but Wormtail could do that too and no one thought he was a genius.

Their intellects seem to be informed abilities, we hear about it but never see real proof.

So, I'm wondering if James' intelligence was much a factor in Lily being attracted to him at all.

[MsJPotter]

=Melaszka;6009370]I don't think she could have waited quite that long. SWM happens at the end of year 5, after they've taken their OWLs, and she starts dating James partway through Year 7 - 18 months at most. But it was quite a long time.

It could well have been 18 months, it could have been 20 months. All we know is that it was a really long, long time for a teenager. I remember thinking a weekend was an eternity

In fairness, she already had other friends - Mary McDonald and the other girls we glimpse her with in SWM - so, devastating as Snape's reprehensible behaviour must have been, it's not like she goes 2 years without having a close friend. She is slow to commit herself to a boyfriend (in a dating sense), but I don't see that as necessarily being the result of Snape's betrayal . After all, Snape was never her boyfriend, so the eventual relationship she has with James is a very different one from the one she had with him. And canon shows her being very wary of James before Snape's betrayal, so it's not like there's a sudden reluctance to get close to him which appears after SWM. Nor do I see it as being her respecting Snape's wishes regarding James - I don't think he has any right to dictate who she can and cannot be friends with and I'd hate to see the books as suggesting he does.

Welllllll, Mary MacDonald and the other girls were...girls. Lily waited a long time before becoming freindly with another boy. Once bitten, twice shy sort . I always kind of took it as read that Snape didn't have a say in who Lily wnated to hang around with. The fact that he thought different was his problem, not really Lily's. Which I guess is what you said.

The reason we are given in canon as to why she doesn't date James (both before and after SWM) is that she is unimpressed with James's behaviour, especially to other students. When he grows up a bit and changes that behaviour, she dates him. IMO that's enough of a reason, without having to factor Snape in, in one way or another (although I take your point that Snape's behaviour must have had a big impact on her and could have affected her confidence in relationships).

I think Snape's behaviour probably had a big effect on her. He totally betrayed her and the boy who she didn't like was the one who took up for her. I kinda think that that day had a knock-on effect on all three of them. It must have shook Lily's confidence, it lost Snape the one person who was willing to be his friend and it showed James that bad behaviour was not the way forward. But I think it must have also shown Lily that it's ain't always the person who keeps harping on about being your friend who will stand up for you.

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

About being "impressed with his intelligence", I always thought it was a little strange how they mentioned that James and Sirius were both so "brilliant". We never see either of them doing anything really smart at all whenever we DO see them (James in flashbacks, Sirius as an adult). There's the animagus thing, but Wormtail could do that too and no one thought he was a genius.

Their intellects seem to be informed abilities, we hear about it but never see real proof.

So, I'm wondering if James' intelligence was much a factor in Lily being attracted to him at all.

You know I'm always amazed that people don't recognise the Marauders Map for the fantastic magical artifact that it is. The map never lies, never makes a mistake and is really good condition even after years of use. I kinda think you would have to be pretty smart to come up with something like that, create it and have it still working years after. The only things we see that do that sort of thing are the Three Hallows.
And I guess you could say that we never see just how difficult becoming an Animagus is. That's because the subject isn'taught to the younger kids or even the older. I always kinda thought that this was because of just how difficult it was. We don't see the Patronus taught in regular classes as well.
I have no doubts to tell the truth that Lily was attracted by brains. She was a pretty smart cookie after all. She wouldn't have a mental slouch for a boyfriend IMO.

[StarryVeil]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

I so badly prefer a sequel to the encyclopedia as the encyclopedia to me is rehashing things we already at least know a little bit about. We know next to nothing of James and Lily's relationship - we know more of Lily and Snape, a friendship that feel apart in a big way, than we know about the relationship Lily chose to be in for the rest of her life.

Exactly my sentiments. From her relationship with Snape, we learn that she had a correct moral compass and a strong sense of justice. That's it. From her relationship with James, we can go beyond knowing that she's a decent human being and learn more about who Lily actually is. Same with James - we can go beyond knowing that he was an immature teenager and learn about all the other facets to his personality. I'm not a fan of this encyclopedia idea because, like you, I'd much rather have a prequel.

To me, Snape was the one poisoning Lily and James's chances by his own prejudices.

I like this point and I agree. One's first loyalty will always be towards one's friend and I think Snape's hatred for James did color Lily's own perception of him. For the majority of her friendship with Snape, whenever she thought of James, I think her first thoughts would be "arrogant", "bully", "insensitive" etc. simply because her primary perception of James would have been through the Snape-filter. However, I wouldn't call Snape's perception of James "prejudiced" because the James that was generally around Snape didn't exactly endorse his positive qualities.

However, as Snape became more and more entranced by the Dark Side and Lily became more mature, I think she could gradually learn to separate her own perceptions of James from Snape's perception of James. This is presented in that courtyard scene in TPT, where Lily can appreciate James's bravery and sense of justice against Snape's opinion that he'd saved him simply to "save his own neck". Here, even Snape starts to sense that Lily is starting to break free of Snape-James and make her own opinion of him, as evidenced by Snape's "I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone thinks they are" comment that made Lily blush and also his insistence that he wouldn't let Lily believe that James was some sort of hero.

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

About being "impressed with his intelligence", I always thought it was a little strange how they mentioned that James and Sirius were both so "brilliant". We never see either of them doing anything really smart at all whenever we DO see them (James in flashbacks, Sirius as an adult). There's the animagus thing, but Wormtail could do that too and no one thought he was a genius.

I don't find it strange at all that James and Sirius were considered the best in their year. As teenagers, they co-invented the Marauder's Map, which is, IMO, one of the cleverest magical inventions of the series. As teenagers, they also became Animagi - something Peter apparently needed a LOT of help from the both of them to accomplish. In SWM, we see that both James and Sirius are supremely confident in their ability to earn an Outstanding (both of them don't bother to read over their exam paper meticulously like Remus was doing). Nor do they start revising for their next exam. Plus James becomes Head Boy.

Being a pretty smart girl herself, I don't think Lily would have found an un-intelligent boy or someone who was unable to match her intellectual capacity attractive so, yes, I do agree with MsJPotter that his intelligence was probably one of the factors that made James attractive to Lily.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

I don't think it's confusing at all.

I meant the way I worded my explanation was confusing. I was tired and punchy last night and wasn't thinking too clearly.

Originally Posted by Melaszka

I don't think she could have waited quite that long. SWM happens at the end of year 5, after they've taken their OWLs, and she starts dating James partway through Year 7 - 18 months at most. But it was quite a long time.

Dang! You beat me to the punch!

My understanding was that James and Lily began dating somewhat early in their seventh year, maybe like October or early November. Any later than that and it becomes unbelievable that they would continue a budding romance that's only two or three months old past school when it's a million times harder to be together since you're not forced together by living in the same place, seeing each other in every class, eating all your meals together, etc. To me, it seems like they would have needed a fairly rock solid bond by the time they graduate Hogwarts in order for their relationship to last beyond school and that kind of bond doesn't often happen between teenagers after just a couple months of dating.

I don't think he has any right to dictate who she can and cannot be friends with and I'd hate to see the books as suggesting he does.

I agree that he doesn't have the right to dictate who she can be friends with but it's often felt as an obligation to hate the people your friends hate or like the people your friends like. Lily was already under pressure from her girlfriends in Gryffindor to dump Snape because he was weird and secretive and rumored to be involved with Slytherins known or suspected to engage in dark magic so there is canon evidence of people pressuring their friend not to like someone whether we like it or not. It happened. It happens every day. Teenager bow to peer pressure all the time and no matter how you frame it it seems that there was at least a little bit of peer pressure causing Lily to shun James for five years. (I am not saying that Snape was the only reason she didn't like James, I'm saying that it was a factor in why she didn't like him)

At the same time, Snape isn't just Lily's friend, he's the link between he two worlds - her only link between her two worlds. Without Snape she's basically alone in the Muggle world. Her sister practically disowned her when she left for Hogwarts and her parents wouldn't understand all the things that happen at Hogwarts and wouldn't be the best people to gab to about life at Hogwarts anyway. Snape knew her friends (even if he didn't like them), knew her classes and what she was learning, he was the only person to whom she could talk outside of her family about her life and not have to lie about anything. That's a big thing to give up and I can't imagine anyone giving that up lightly.

Compound Lily's existing friendship with Snape with his rocky homelife and the fact that James immediately begins picking on him from the word go on the train, Lily had every reason in the world not to like James. But once she was living in the same house as James, eating at the same table, taking the same classes, I can't imagine him being so horrible all the time that her attitude towards him wouldn't soften. It seems to me that Lily and James had a very hot and cold relationship - she might have tolerated or even liked him on occassions when he wasn't being a total jerk but then the pendulum swings the other way, she sees James bullying someone or hexing Snape and she goes ape**** on him. I can absolutely see Snape stepping in at such times and whipping Lily up into even more dislike for James and if/when she defends James at all Snape would likewise fly off the handle and claim she's betraying him by liking such an idiot, that James is nothing but a bully with an ego the size of Jupiter and if she's going to say anything nice about James than their friendship would be over. It's not nice, it's absolutely manipulation but friends do that to each other.

(I did not mean for the above statements to be in any way a Snape v. James debate. Just FYI.)

The reason we are given in canon as to why she doesn't date James (both before and after SWM) is that she is unimpressed with James's behaviour, especially to other students. When he grows up a bit and changes that behaviour, she dates him. IMO that's enough of a reason, without having to factor Snape in, in one way or another (although I take your point that Snape's behaviour must have had a big impact on her and could have affected her confidence in relationships).

There is a moment in SWM when Lily almost smiles at James and I believe it happens during James's bullying of Snape. While she may have disapproved of James's behavior it does at least appear that her attraction to him was partly in spite of his bullying behavior.

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

It could well have been 18 months, it could have been 20 months. All we know is that it was a really long, long time for a teenager. I remember thinking a weekend was an eternity

(I remember being in preschool and thinking a 20 minute time out was an eternity. Oh, how things change... )

Welllllll, Mary MacDonald and the other girls were...girls. Lily waited a long time before becoming freindly with another boy. Once bitten, twice shy sort . I always kind of took it as read that Snape didn't have a say in who Lily wnated to hang around with. The fact that he thought different was his problem, not really Lily's. Which I guess is what you said.

I don't think it's as easy as that. Yes, it is kind of Snape's problem but he and Lily were friends - friends as teenagers at that - and friends do manipulate each other, consciously or unconsciously. I would also argue that Lily might have a sort of pleasing people complex once her relationship with Petunia started going bad her frist year at Hogwarts. She valued Petunia and she did something that hurt her and would eventually lead to the destruction of their relationship. Once bitten, twice shy; Lily might not have wanted to lose Snape's friendship badly enough that she might have submitted to his suggestions of James being an awful person even though she knew he wasn't as bad as Snape was saying simply so she wouldn't lose Snape's friendship.

it lost Snape the one person who was willing to be his friend

Well... it appears that Avery and Mulciber were willing to be Snape's friend so it's not like Lily was his only friend or the only person willing to be his friend. I think that moment lost Snape is best friend and arguably the only person who genuinely cared for him and his well being.

But I think it must have also shown Lily that it's ain't always the person who keeps harping on about being your friend who will stand up for you.

A hard way to learn that lesson.

You know I'm always amazed that people don't recognise the Marauders Map for the fantastic magical artifact that it is. The map never lies, never makes a mistake and is really good condition even after years of use. I kinda think you would have to be pretty smart to come up with something like that, create it and have it still working years after. The only things we see that do that sort of thing are the Three Hallows.

I know, right?!? The Marauder's Map is incredible and as far as we are told nothing else like it has existed. As far as we know the spells on the map - to track people on the grounds, to wipe it clean, to keep it in pristine condition - were invented by the marauders which would mean they're not only intelligent enough to do all their schoolwork and become animagi in their spare time, they also have the knowledge of magical theory to invent spells that thwart extremely talented adult wizards (Snape in POA) - and all of this has to have taken place in their last two years at Hogwarts since the map was only written after they became animagi and could explore the castle and grounds more extensively as their animal forms (I don't remember the exact quote but it's from the end of POA: "we only achieved [becoming animagi] in our fifth year" and "that's what led us to write the Marauder's Map...")

Okay, we're drifting off topic a bit...

I guess to bring this point on home, I don't doubt that James's intelligence was at least a contributor to Lily's attraction to him. I doubt very much it was the entire reason she began dating him, I think that had more to do with him maturing and demonstrating that his heart is in the right place with regards to Voldemort, the Death Eaters and pulling his weight as Head Boy.

[Melaszka]

I think it's about time to drop the Snape discussion. It was fair enough as long as it clearly related back to the James/Lily relationship (e.g. Did Lily avoid having a relationship with James prior to the UVIth, either out of loyalty to her friend Snape or because she had been scarred by Snape's betrayal?), but it's gone way past that now. Let's leave him out of it. I may delete some posts or parts thereof.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

You know I'm always amazed that people don't recognise the Marauders Map for the fantastic magical artifact that it is. The map never lies, never makes a mistake and is really good condition even after years of use. I kinda think you would have to be pretty smart to come up with something like that, create it and have it still working years after. The only things we see that do that sort of thing are the Three Hallows.

Well, it hasn't lasted centuries like the Hallows, but it is pretty impressive magic. I'm trying to recall if the Map shows up Harry when he is hidden under the Cloak. Even if it doesn't, it is very impressive to create a piece of magic to monitor the locations of people within Hogwarts, to give the passwords to secret passageways, to safeguard itself against unwelcome use.

I have no doubts to tell the truth that Lily was attracted by brains. She was a pretty smart cookie after all. She wouldn't have a mental slouch for a boyfriend IMO

I think she wouldn't have wanted to date someone who wasn't sharp enough to keep up with her intellectually, but I don't think that brains would have taken priority over common decency for Lily. She wouldn't have dated someone just because they were smart, regardless of their personality or values.

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

From her relationship with James, we can go beyond knowing that she's a decent human being and learn more about who Lily actually is. Same with James - we can go beyond knowing that he was an immature teenager and learn about all the other facets to his personality. I'm not a fan of this encyclopedia idea because, like you, I'd much rather have a prequel.

I would love a prequel. I would love to read about Lily and James' relationship and their work for the Order. I love the little snippets we get of them in DH: Lily's letter, the Potters together before Voldemort breaks in, their arrival in the Forest to support Harry.

I don't find it strange at all that James and Sirius were considered the best in their year. As teenagers, they co-invented the Marauder's Map, which is, IMO, one of the cleverest magical inventions of the series. As teenagers, they also became Animagi - something Peter apparently needed a LOT of help from the both of them to accomplish. In SWM, we see that both James and Sirius are supremely confident in their ability to earn an Outstanding (both of them don't bother to read over their exam paper meticulously like Remus was doing). Nor do they start revising for their next exam. Plus James becomes Head Boy.

I agree, they succeeded in a lot of ways. They were top of their year, and did well in school work and exams. That was just the information that McGonagall was basing her comments on their intelligence on. She knew nothing of their feat of becoming Animagi while still in school, or developing the Marauders' Map.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

I guess to bring this point on home, I don't doubt that James's intelligence was at least a contributor to Lily's attraction to him. I doubt very much it was the entire reason she began dating him, I think that had more to do with him maturing and demonstrating that his heart is in the right place with regards to Voldemort, the Death Eaters and pulling his weight as Head Boy.

I agree. I think Lily would have liked it that James was intelligent. I also agree that she would not have been attracted to someone solely because they were intelligent. I think that would be every bit as shallow as liking someone because they're attractive. Intelligence and appearance have nothing to do with whether someone is a good, decent, likeable person, and I think Lily would have made that distinction.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that James' intelligence and looks were probably among the things that Lily liked about him, but I doubt they were the main things that drew her to him and kept her interested in him. I think that James' nature, his values and his personality were far more important in cementing their relationship, from Lily's perspective. Yes, I imagine she liked his intelliegnce and his appearance. However, unless one is quite shallow, an attractive and/or intelligent person can be completely unappealing if their values and personality are off-putting.