Harry's immortality

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

So...yes and no?

I personally view the actions the characters take as coinicidences in terms of their world but that's because I don't personally have a great belief in fate or destiny; I am of the opinion that we make our own choices and reap the consequences of those choices, for better or worse. To me, the actions of the characters in the HP series are all choices those characters made and everything that leads Harry to be in the position he is in at the end of the book is brought about by coincidence, happenstance, luck and ingenuity and the only reason it all works out in the end is because it's a book and we want the hero to win.

With all that being said, I view Harry's mortality with much the same opinion. It was the choice Voldemort gave Lily that led to her inadvertantly giving Harry protection from Voldemort as a baby. It was happenstance that Phineas overheard Hermione say they were staying in the forest of Dean which allowed Snape the oppotunity to pass the sword on to Harry. It was ingenuity on Dumbledore's part that led Harry to be in possession of two of the three hallows by the beginning of DH. It was a hell of a lot of luck that got the trio through their exploits at the Ministry and in Gringotts.

[horcrux4]

Looking at your 4 points I don't think any of them made Harry immortal. The ancient magic triggered by Lily's sacrifice and remaining in her blood only protected Harry from Voldemort as far as I can see and anyone else could have killed him. When that blood was transferred to Voldemort as well, it took away some of Harry's invulnerability but didn't necessarily guarantee Voldemort still couldn't kill him. At Kings Cross, Dumbledore said Harry had the option to "go on" ie die, or to return his consciousness to his body which he chose to do. The blood connection however did guarantee him a choice - again so long as it was Voldemort who "killed" him, which is why Dumbledore, telling Snape that Harry must die, was insistent that it must be Voldemort who killed him.

The piece of Voldemort's soul in Harry was no guarantee that Harry would live, just that Voldemort would live so long as Harry did and the horcrux remained safe. It protected Voldemort's life rather than Harry's. As for the 3 Hallows, it is impossible to say what effect having all 3 in your possession would have on your mortality because until Harry, no-one had ever owned all three at once. What Dumbledore and Grindelwald, and even Xeno Lovegood, understood by "Master of Death" is never clearly stated and of course since they had never been united, those people couldn't have actually known what the effect would be. It seems to me that Harry survived the final battle because he was Master of the Wand, not because of the other two Hallows.

[ShadowSonic]

And he was only "Master of the Wand" by another amazing twist, rather than anything pre-planned by anyone.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

And he was only "Master of the Wand" by another amazing twist, rather than anything pre-planned by anyone.

Right, but ending up master of the wand, while making for a good story, didn't ensure his immortality in any real way. He likely wouldn't have been able to defeat Voldemort with the flourish that he did if he didn't have the allegiance of the wand, but Voldemort was made vulnerable, was defeated, by Harry's actions without the EW, not because he was its master.

[TheGuy]

Originally Posted by horcrux4

Looking at your 4 points I don't think any of them made Harry immortal. The ancient magic triggered by Lily's sacrifice and remaining in her blood only protected Harry from Voldemort as far as I can see and anyone else could have killed him. When that blood was transferred to Voldemort as well, it took away some of Harry's invulnerability but didn't necessarily guarantee Voldemort still couldn't kill him. At Kings Cross, Dumbledore said Harry had the option to "go on" ie die, or to return his consciousness to his body which he chose to do. The blood connection however did guarantee him a choice - again so long as it was Voldemort who "killed" him, which is why Dumbledore, telling Snape that Harry must die, was insistent that it must be Voldemort who killed him.

The piece of Voldemort's soul in Harry was no guarantee that Harry would live, just that Voldemort would live so long as Harry did and the horcrux remained safe. It protected Voldemort's life rather than Harry's. As for the 3 Hallows, it is impossible to say what effect having all 3 in your possession would have on your mortality because until Harry, no-one had ever owned all three at once. What Dumbledore and Grindelwald, and even Xeno Lovegood, understood by "Master of Death" is never clearly stated and of course since they had never been united, those people couldn't have actually known what the effect would be. It seems to me that Harry survived the final battle because he was Master of the Wand, not because of the other two Hallows.

I suppose I did not make it too clear but I was meaning immortal in the Harry-Voldemort conflict. Voldemort sought to be immortal but the irony was the one person he wanted dead he could not kill. Hence Harry was immortal when confronted by Voldemort. I don't dispute that anyone else could kill him, but Voldemort could not. Just how I see it.

BUT, if it weren't for Lily's blood in Harry, Lily's blood in Voldemort, the Horcrux in Harry and the fact that the Elder Wand would not kill Harry, would Harry have even had the choice to return to this world? We know that the Elder Wand swears allegiance to it's owner until he is defeated, so by casting the Killing Curse with it the only thing Voldemort could kill would have been his own bit of soul within Harry. The curse would not harm Harry. Then after that the Elder Wand would still not work for Voldemort or harm Harry. Then we still have to factor in the blood. There has to be a reason why Dumbledore smiled when Harry told him Voldemort took his blood. It had to form some sort of connection.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Right, but ending up master of the wand, while making for a good story, didn't ensure his immortality in any real way. He likely wouldn't have been able to defeat Voldemort with the flourish that he did if he didn't have the allegiance of the wand, but Voldemort was made vulnerable, was defeated, by Harry's actions without the EW, not because he was its master.

This has to be a contributing factor in the defeat of Voldemort that can't be overlooked though. The wand would not harm Harry nor would it work effectively for Voldemort as it was not his.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by TheGuy

This has to be a contributing factor in the defeat of Voldemort that can't be overlooked though. The wand would not harm Harry nor would it work effectively for Voldemort as it was not his.

Regardless of Harry's actions, Voldemort would not end up master of the wand. He did send Malfoy to defeat Dumbledore, so the wand going to Malfoy was really Voldemort's own design.

Besides that, though, Voldemort was truly defeated through the removal of his horcruxes, followed by Harry's sacrifice. All of this took place completely separate from the Elder Wand conversation.

By the time the final showdown happened, Voldemort was effectively defeated. If he had the Elder Wand, he would not be able to use it on anyone but Harry, given his sacrifice. As it was, Harry was able to finish things through a duel, as he knew that the wand wouldn't betray him. However, if the wand was truly Voldemort's by that time, then he likely would have had to resort to something different, and in all likelihood, a lot less heroic.

The full effects of Voldemort having mastery of the Elder Wand is an interesting thing to discuss, though I don't think that it would have made much difference.

[ShadowSonic]

Well, if he had control over the Elder Wand and he COULD kill Harry and did...well, couldn't he just order the rest of the DEs to kill everyone else there while he used the Wand's power to incapacitate them without killing them?

Harry's sacrifice only protected the people at the battle, not everyone in the world. Once they were dead the protection wouldn't spread to others elsewhere.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Well, if he had control over the Elder Wand and he COULD kill Harry and did...well, couldn't he just order the rest of the DEs to kill everyone else there while he used the Wand's power to incapacitate them without killing them?

The DEs were being ordered to kill everyone there. That's why it was a battle. The DEs lost, though, because they were outnumbered.

Besides that, it wasn't just killing curses which didn't work for Voldemort due to the protection; it was all curses. Harry points this out.

[ShadowSonic]

But wasn't it just the killing curse Harry himself was protected from? If this was the same kind of protection spread to everyone else, why would they be protected from everything?

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

But wasn't it just the killing curse Harry himself was protected from? If this was the same kind of protection spread to everyone else, why would they be protected from everything?

Harry's protection from Lily was to save him from Voldemort. That's what happened; Voldemort couldn't kill or even touch Harry without dire consequences (Quirrell), until he uses Harry's blood for creating a new body. Then he can touch Harry but as we see from DH, he also reinstates Lily's protection as far as not being able to kill Harry. Harry's sacrifice protects the others from Voldemort in the same way as Lily's sacrifice did, so the spells & curses don't hold. But, like Harry, everyone else was still vulnerable to be harmed or killed by others.

[ShadowSonic]

Makes you wonder how extensive the protection is. We see it repel spells focused directly on Harry and physical touching.

I mean, what if Voldemort had levitated a heavy rock above Harry and let it drop? Would the levitation spell just not work or would the rock bounce off of him?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Makes you wonder how extensive the protection is. We see it repel spells focused directly on Harry and physical touching.

I mean, what if Voldemort had levitated a heavy rock above Harry and let it drop? Would the levitation spell just not work or would the rock bounce off of him?

Yeah, I've always wondered that. And what if Voldemort apparated to right behind Harry and knifed him?

[TheGuy]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Makes you wonder how extensive the protection is. We see it repel spells focused directly on Harry and physical touching.

I mean, what if Voldemort had levitated a heavy rock above Harry and let it drop? Would the levitation spell just not work or would the rock bounce off of him?

I think any form of physical attack could and would kill Harry. He does sustain cuts and bruises, so a knife would penetrate him. I think he was only protected by magic from magic. We do know that Wizards and Witches are not logical and would not think to try a simple knife. Voldemort was also so arrogant he probably believed his abilities as a Wizard were so vastly superior that it was inevitable that he would defeat Harry via magic.

Originally Posted by willfitz

The full effects of Voldemort having mastery of the Elder Wand is an interesting thing to discuss, though I don't think that it would have made much difference.

This will go on in circles, but I still think it does. A wizard as powerful as Voldemort was rendered useless as not even the most simple of curses was working for him with that Wand. We can say sacrfifice or blood was the prime reason as to why Harry was protected/saved, but at the same time the tool Voldemort thought would allow him to kill Harry would not work for him in any manner.

Harry revealed this to Voldemort in their final duel, so it meant something in the greater scheme of things. As much as the blood and sacrifice.

Voldemort would never have been able to kill Harry at the end with that Wand anyway due to the other reasons, but it still does not make the fact that the Wand was not working less relevant. That was the gist of my OP, to point out what I believe to be as much as 4 things making Harry immortal in the Harry-Voldemort axis. Either one on their own would probably do the trick.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by TheGuy

This will go on in circles, but I still think it does. A wizard as powerful as Voldemort was rendered useless as not even the most simple of curses was working for him with that Wand. We can say sacrfifice or blood was the prime reason as to why Harry was protected/saved, but at the same time the tool Voldemort thought would allow him to kill Harry would not work for him in any manner.

But the allegiance of the wand was not the reason the wand wasn't working against anyone in the Great Hall, according to Harry. When Harry sacrificed himself, he did for all people fighting against Voldemort what Lily had done for him all those years ago- he gave them magical protection against Voldemort. No matter what wand he was using, therefore, Voldemort wouldn't be able to effectively use magic against anyone in the Hall.

Voldemort originally thought that the Elder Wand would solve his problem because he was convinced that the strongest magical weapon could overcome love- that was his fatal flaw, of course, that he didn't realize that love, and the protection granted by it, would overcome any kind of conventional magic, Elder Wand included. That is why I say it had little bearing on the outcome. I believe its purpose was thematic, and to allow for an extremely fitting ending, preventing Harry from having to commit murder.

[horcrux4]

Originally Posted by TheGuy

This will go on in circles, but I still think it does. A wizard as powerful as Voldemort was rendered useless as not even the most simple of curses was working for him with that Wand. We can say sacrfifice or blood was the prime reason as to why Harry was protected/saved, but at the same time the tool Voldemort thought would allow him to kill Harry would not work for him in any manner.

Harry revealed this to Voldemort in their final duel, so it meant something in the greater scheme of things. As much as the blood and sacrifice.

Voldemort told Snape that with the Elder Wand he could only perform his usual magic (which was pretty powerful) so the wand was not useless to him but no more useful than his original wand. His spells wouldn't work on the people of Hogwarts because of Harry's sacrifice and wouldn't have worked with any wand.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Voldemort originally thought that the Elder Wand would solve his problem because he was convinced that the strongest magical weapon could overcome love- that was his fatal flaw, of course, that he didn't realize that love, and the protection granted by it, would overcome any kind of conventional magic, Elder Wand included. That is why I say it had little bearing on the outcome. I believe its purpose was thematic, and to allow for an extremely fitting ending, preventing Harry from having to commit murder.

I had the impression that Voldemort wanted the Elder Wand to overcome the twin core problem which borrowing another's wand had failed to do. He therefore saw the Elder Wand as the best prospect of overcoming Harry. I'm not convinced he thought about love at all - and certainly hadn't understood what taking some of Harry's love-protected blood into himself would do.

When Harry is transferred to Kings Cross after Voldemort AKs him in the Forest, he has the option of dying if he prefers that to returning to finish off Voldemort (although I think everyone knew he wouldn't take that course). So it was possible for Voldemort to kill him, despite the blood protection; the blood just gave Harry a lifeline back if he chose to use it. That's why I think the allegiance of the Elder Wand was significant in the final battle.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by horcrux4

I had the impression that Voldemort wanted the Elder Wand to overcome the twin core problem which borrowing another's wand had failed to do. He therefore saw the Elder Wand as the best prospect of overcoming Harry. I'm not convinced he thought about love at all - and certainly hadn't understood what taking some of Harry's love-protected blood into himself would do.

When Harry is transferred to Kings Cross after Voldemort AKs him in the Forest, he has the option of dying if he prefers that to returning to finish off Voldemort (although I think everyone knew he wouldn't take that course). So it was possible for Voldemort to kill him, despite the blood protection; the blood just gave Harry a lifeline back if he chose to use it. That's why I think the allegiance of the Elder Wand was significant in the final battle.

I understand your points, but I'm not sure how you drew your conclusion. If you are referring to the final battle as the final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort, then I strongly doubt there would have been a final battle if Harry didn't have the allegiance of the Elder Wand. He simply wouldn't have been able to take that risk.

[ID824]

Originally Posted by EXPELIAMUS

I agree with 1 and 2, Harry avoided death twice. I actually don't understand your 3rd point. Are you saying that because Voldy has Lily's blood in him, that Harry can't be killed? If so, then are you saying that a part of Harry/Lily is alive in Voldy acting as a Horcrux of some sort? Also, is it confirmed that Lily's protection magically installed some death barrier in baby Harry's blood from then on? If not, then your 3rd point isn't true. Harry ended up killing Voldy, who in your point of view has Lily's blood. I believe the DH2 would've made it clear that your 3rd point was another layer, since it's the last movie.

I don't agree with 4, you can still be killed even if the Elder Wand's allegiance is to you. Having the wand doesn't automatically make you invincible since someone can sneak up on you from behind or in your sleep. That being said, in order for someone to be a master of death, you need all 3 in your possession at the same time IMO. I like the idea that something cool would happen once you get all 3, like transform into something god-like, but it could also just be a theoretical term. Because someone has 3 of these super cool things, it would be like you are the master of avoiding getting killed because no one can see you and you have a lot of power and in general you can talk to the dead people you loved again. However, you may still die if the 3 DH owner was careless and the opponent is clever, but that's just my opinion.

Now that I think about point 2 further, Harry could die and Voldy's soul in him may survive, similar to Quirrell with Voldy in him from SS. That is, if someone besides Voldy killed Harry. I could be wrong but I thought only Voldy killing Harry would result in the horcrux in Harry and Harry dying. Dumbledore told Harry that he didn't have to return to the world of the living if he didn't want to. I know Harry's body on earth was somewhat moving or at least had a pulse when Harry was with Dumbledore. Yeah I'm confused.

This last point is something I disagree with. When Voldemort kills Harry in the woods, his soul/mind is transported to some place where Harry is given the choice to go back into his body and live, or take a train and travel on to death. The mangled piece of Voldemort's soul doesn't have the same ability.

What I find amusing is that Voldemort trusted so fully in his magical ability, that he never seemed to think of a more permanent way to kill Harry, such as chopping off his head. I don't think Harry would have been able to come back in the woods if that had been the method of killing.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

While Harry is alive and calls the Dursley's house home Lily's love/blood protection would protect Harry from being killed by Voldemort or being touched by Voldemort without him experiencing excruciating pain. It is Lily's love, which lives in Harry's blood, that caused Voldemort's curse to rebound so techinically once Voldemort regenerates using Harry's blood it can be assumed that the same would happen if Harry attempted to kill Voldemort using the killing curse. It is also shown that once Voldemort regenerates using Harry's blood he can now cause Harry excruciating pain by touching him as Harry caused Quirrelmort excruciating pain in PS/SS.

I think that the description of Harry experiencing pain when Voldemort touches him in GOF cannot necessarily be interpreted as Voldemort overcoming Lily's protection in Harry's blood.

Harry also experiences excruciating pain when Wormtail appears carrying Voldemort in the frail disfigured "body" that was created as a temporary home for Voldemort's soul. There was no physical contact involved.

It must be taken into account that the pain Harry was experiencing in GOF could be related to the scar soul-piece, not any negation of Harry's protection from death by Voldemort. The only thing that changed was Voldemort's ability to physically touch Harry without causing pain to himself.

In King's Cross Dumbledore says this:

DH, page 709 US hardcover edition "Precisely!" said Dumbledore. "He took your blood and rebuilt his living body with it! Your blood in his veins, Harry, Lily's protection inside both of you! He tethered you to life while he lives!"

The way I see it, Dumbledore is saying that Harry's protection is strengthened by Voldemort's actions, not that one replaced the other. "Lily's protection inside both of you". I think that this view is further supported by Dumbledore's further conversation of the connection between Harry & Voldemort, on pages 710-711 of DH.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

The way I see it, Dumbledore is saying that Harry's protection is strengthened by Voldemort's actions, not that one replaced the other. "Lily's protection inside both of you". I think that this view is further supported by Dumbledore's further conversation of the connection between Harry & Voldemort, on pages 710-711 of DH.

But how do you reconcile this with the fact that the main thing we see that the old blood protection offered- ie the ability to touch and cast spells on Harry- are gone upon Voldemort's reincarnation?

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by ID824

What I find amusing is that Voldemort trusted so fully in his magical ability, that he never seemed to think of a more permanent way to kill Harry, such as chopping off his head. I don't think Harry would have been able to come back in the woods if that had been the method of killing.

He's pretty arrogant about being magical, he killed his father partly because he was not magical and I think, personally, that it just might never have crossed Voldemort's mind that a magical means of murder would be any "less permanent" than a non-magical method. Also, Voldemort might have wanted to kill Harry magically because he regarded muggle methods of murder such as cutting ones head off as beneath him, that he was more sophisticated than that and far too magically powerful to think that his magic would be incapable of killing a teenager or a baby even though it has been proven to him on several occasions that he couldn't do it.