A Game of Thrones

[mrfutterman]

Spoiler: show

Maybe it's just me, but almost any attempt to show unwashed peasants on screen invokes memories of Monty Python and comes across as unintentionally comic. The glimpses of the Wildlings smacks of that. I thought it the least successful part of this week's episode. On the other hand, all the scenes involving any of the Lannisters were gold.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

While I'm a fan of Margaery's portrayal, I definitely agree that the writing for the show lacks subtlety. The way they are writing littlefinger doesn't make it seem like he's a master planner, because he's too open with everyone!

I've heard this complaint many times, but I don't think it is necessarily true. Littlefinger, especially this season but also in the first, is open with everyone, but he lets everyone best him. Cersei bested him with her guard, Tywin did by cutting him off continually and doing away with any persona, Catelyn did by demanding he leave her alone, and Tyrion thinks that Littlefinger is just his pawn that will run all over for him. And I can't help but think this is a decision purposely planned out by the writers. Littlefinger continually gets beaten down by everyone and he's just another pawn in the game, but later on we'll see that this was all a big charade and Littlefinger was using that persona of the faithful pushover to subtly get his way and work around these big egos in King's Landing. While it is a slight departure from the character in the books, I ultimately think it's very similar. This is something you could believe from someone who was low-born and rose to a powerful position, and in the end I think it'll have the same effect as the book's characterization did.

[jordmundt6]

Except--he's not open with everyone. He tells, at most, a quarter of the truth to any person, pushes all the right buttons and gets them to reveal their weakest points. Ceresi didn't best him, she tried to bully him and showed a fundamental lack of understanding that has permeated her entire rearing of Joffrey and ensured that he turned into a monster.

I would have thought that Tyrion wouldn't be stupid enought to dismiss Baelish as a toady, but anyone who could misread Joffrey's loathsome, rapacious nature as...pent up teenage lust is clearly quite fallible.

Tywin may have tried a more elegant, effective bullying technique but all he succeeded in doing was cutting off his own nose. Baelish saw Arya, and I'm sure he recognized her. If he had been treated openhandedly, he might have given that little tidbit to Tywin for a price. The only time we've ever seen the real Baelish is when he's training his employees and when he was muttering under his breath about Ned. That's it.

[DeliciousMoon]

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

Except--he's not open with everyone. He tells, at most, a quarter of the truth to any person, pushes all the right buttons and gets them to reveal their weakest points. Ceresi didn't best him, she tried to bully him and showed a fundamental lack of understanding that has permeated her entire rearing of Joffrey and ensured that he turned into a monster.

I just want to say I doubt Joffrey was Cersei's doing. Tommen and Myrcella are as sweet as you can get and they were raised by her as well. Joffrey seems more likely to be a sociopath. What he did to the kittens supports this imo. I would also be more willing to place the blame on Robert in raising Joffrey so terribly. Sos Spoiler:

Spoiler: show

Afterall, didn't Joffrey send the assassin on Bran to try and impress him? (I might be remembering incorrectly.) He was also an abusive parent and husband.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

Except--he's not open with everyone. He tells, at most, a quarter of the truth to any person, pushes all the right buttons and gets them to reveal their weakest points. Ceresi didn't best him, she tried to bully him and showed a fundamental lack of understanding that has permeated her entire rearing of Joffrey and ensured that he turned into a monster.

I would have thought that Tyrion wouldn't be stupid enought to dismiss Baelish as a toady, but anyone who could misread Joffrey's loathsome, rapacious nature as...pent up teenage lust is clearly quite fallible.

Tywin may have tried a more elegant, effective bullying technique but all he succeeded in doing was cutting off his own nose. Baelish saw Arya, and I'm sure he recognized her. If he had been treated openhandedly, he might have given that little tidbit to Tywin for a price. The only time we've ever seen the real Baelish is when he's training his employees and when he was muttering under his breath about Ned. That's it.

Well that's kinda my point. No one has actually bested Littlefinger, but he allows them to think they have. Cersei obviously came away from their meeting with each other thinking that she showed Littlefinger who is boss, and I think Tyrion, Tywin and Catelyn have all felt similarly about him. I think he's purposely letting people think this way so they underestimate him.

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

I just want to say I doubt Joffrey was Cersei's doing. Tommen and Myrcella are as sweet as you can get and they were raised by her as well. Joffrey seems more likely to be a sociopath. What he did to the kittens supports this imo. I would also be more willing to place the blame on Robert in raising Joffrey so terribly. Sos Spoiler:

Spoiler: show

Afterall, didn't Joffrey send the assassin on Bran to try and impress him? (I might be remembering incorrectly.) He was also an abusive parent and husband.

While I definitely think that Tommen and Myrcella are good children, I do think Cersei deserves some of the blame for how Joffrey turned out. Joffrey is no doubt mentally unstable, but Cersei's rearing didn't help. She spoiled him, she kept him close, she raised him to rule after Robert finally died. She loved him in ways she never loved Tommen or Myrcella. We get confirmation of that in Feast when she finally gets a PoV. So, her spoiling and general treatment of him probably didn't help his already fragile and psychotic mind. But I wouldn't give her the majority of the blame.

As for Robert, I wouldn't place much, if any, blame on him. Robert was distant with Joffrey. While Joffrey might try to impress Robert by doing certain things, I don't think Robert can be responsible for how Joffrey actually turned out in his personality, and I don't think I've ever seen anything to suggest that. We never learn that Robert treated Joffrey any different than Tommen or Myrcella, he seemed to not really care for any of them equally. So if Robert had no effect on Tommen or Myrcella, I don't see how his actions could have made Joffrey something he already wasn't.

Spoiler: show

The example you provide shows this clearly. Joffrey overheard Robert saying about how'd it be a mercy to put Bran out of his misery since he was going to be a cripple for life -- so Joffrey sends an assassin to kill Bran. That wasn't Robert's fault -- Joffrey's sociopathic mind is to blame. Yes, he was trying to impress Robert, but he was doing it in a mentally unstable way that isn't Robert's fault.

[DeliciousMoon]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

As for Robert, I wouldn't place much, if any, blame on him. Robert was distant with Joffrey. While Joffrey might try to impress Robert by doing certain things, I don't think Robert can be responsible for how Joffrey actually turned out in his personality, and I don't think I've ever seen anything to suggest that. We never learn that Robert treated Joffrey any different than Tommen or Myrcella, he seemed to not really care for any of them equally. So if Robert had no effect on Tommen or Myrcella, I don't see how his actions could have made Joffrey something he already wasn't.

Spoiler: show

The example you provide shows this clearly. Joffrey overheard Robert saying about how'd it be a mercy to put Bran out of his misery since he was going to be a cripple for life -- so Joffrey sends an assassin to kill Bran. That wasn't Robert's fault -- Joffrey's sociopathic mind is to blame. Yes, he was trying to impress Robert, but he was doing it in a mentally unstable way that isn't Robert's fault.

Robert didn't always ignore Joffrey - he physically beat him bloody after he found out about the kittens. I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't an isolated incident either, given Robert's abusive and violent personality in general. Imo this would have affected Joffrey negatively. Cersei at least tried to teach him that being violent towards women was wrong. It's not her fault he didn't listen.

I'm sure Joffrey is a product of his own mental issues as well as the way he was raised. I just think Cersei gets way too much blame for the way he turned out.

[Lord Godric]

Robert did certainly beat Joffrey bloody, but it was after he had cut open a pregnant cat to see the kittens. The cruelty was already there. Which, like I said, was probably due to mental instability he was born with. And, as far as we know, it was an isolated incident. I think if it happened regularly Cersei would have had him killed much sooner (I think we get told by Cersei that she would never allow Robert to touch Joffrey again, but I can't remember for certain). But even if Robert had beaten Joffrey regularly I still do not believe, and I see nothing in the text, to suggest that Joffrey developed the way he did because of Robert. Again, maybe he did outlandish things to impress Robert, but the disgusting nature of those things can not be pinned on Robert's rearing. Nor Cersei's. When I blame Cersei for how Joffrey turned out, I mean how spoiled he was, how uncontrollable his temper was. Cersei spoiled him and let him do whatever he wanted to do. She never told his no, she never punished him, she raised him to think he was infallible. We know Robert didn't do that -- Robert largely ignored him and left the parenting up to Cersei. She does get a lot of blame, and Joffrey was the way he was mainly because of his mental instability, but I certainly think being treated as a king from birth added to the egomaniacal sense of person.

[RemusPotter]

I think the film-makers are trying to make the dragons and direwolves as offscreen as possible, due to budget restrains. Pitty

[jordmundt6]

Aah, there are places even HBO won't go. From the TV series the impression given is that Joffrey is damaged goods, but the outlook that Cersei fostered in him (spinning the "revised history" of the incident with Nymeria, regarding "everyone who isn't us" as an enemy) might not have turned Joffrey evil but provided the perfect environment for all of his maliciousness to fester. I'm not sure what would have happened if a child with Tommen's personality and traits had been her eldest and a child like Joffrey had been the second son, but I think the pressure of her nurturing would have brought out the worst side of hypothetical Tommen (though it might not be as bad as Joffrey has turned out to be).

Anyone getting the sense that they're improving Robb to set us up for next season? It seems like they're making him more into a young version of Ned than the text indicated. Anyone else getting that sense?

[RikuStark]

Originally Posted by RemusPotter

I think the film-makers are trying to make the dragons and direwolves as offscreen as possible, due to budget restrains. Pitty

Yea, I got that impression as well. In these more recent episodes I keep expecting one of the direwolves to pop up somewhere but they're always a no show. I can understand why they're not around, but I would really like to see more of them.

Can't wait for the next episode! I can already tell that it will be amazing.

[Lord Godric]

The direwolves have actually been around a lot this season compared to last. They're obviously CGI so they rarely interact with the actors but they can be seen occasionally strolling near their characters.

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

Aah, there are places even HBO won't go. From the TV series the impression given is that Joffrey is damaged goods, but the outlook that Cersei fostered in him (spinning the "revised history" of the incident with Nymeria, regarding "everyone who isn't us" as an enemy) might not have turned Joffrey evil but provided the perfect environment for all of his maliciousness to fester. I'm not sure what would have happened if a child with Tommen's personality and traits had been her eldest and a child like Joffrey had been the second son, but I think the pressure of her nurturing would have brought out the worst side of hypothetical Tommen (though it might not be as bad as Joffrey has turned out to be).

Tommen would be different and probably much more like Cersei, but I doubt he'd be like Joffrey. He'd be spoiled, egomaniacical and paranoid but not cruel and sadistic.

Anyone getting the sense that they're improving Robb to set us up for next season? It seems like they're making him more into a young version of Ned than the text indicated. Anyone else getting that sense?

I don't think it is their intention to make him a young version of Ned, I just think given the television medium his story needs to be shown, at least in part. With the books it worked that Catelyn was our eyes into Robb and we got reports about his progress from other people. However, because he is one of the five kings, it seems crucial that we follow him. Richard Madden plays Robb magnificently and he gives them plenty of opportunities to expand Robb's story.

Now, with all that said, I have to express one of my largest gripes with this season and that is Talisa. I do not understand why they turned Jeyne Westerling into Lady Talisa of no last name from Volantis. Oona Chaplin could easily play the part of Jeyne and they even kept the Westerling castle, the Crag, and if you watch with the extras from the website they mention the Westerling family. I'm not one to complain about the changes they make in the television adaptation because I trust the writers and normally every change has an ultimate goal. However, I just do not see what Talisa adds to the story that Jeyne wouldn't have added. It bothers me greatly, not because it impacts the story at all, but because it seems like the first time the writers are making a change just because they can and not to serve the greater story via television. Also, (MAJOR book spoilers ahead)

Spoiler: show

The fact that the Westerlings were bannermen of the Lannisters was what led Jeyne's mother to begin collaborating with the Lannisters and the Freys that led to the Red Wedding and Robb's death. If Talisa really is from Volantis -- we lose that completely. It wouldn't be entirely unbelievable to just cut out the middle-woman and have Tywin directly scheme with Walder, but I'm still disturbed that they're changing the plot for no obvious reason.

I've heard some people suggest that Talisa *is* Jeyne and just under cover or something, but I don't believe that especially since Robb and Talisa supposedly just returned from The Crag. It's not a big deal, the character still will serve the same purpose, but it irritates me in a way nothing has yet.

Anyway, "War is Here" next week and I can't wait especially since George R. R. Martin wrote the episode. The trailer looks almost like an epic movie trailer.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

Anyway, "War is Here" next week and I can't wait especially since George R. R. Martin wrote the episode. The trailer looks almost like an epic movie trailer.

I thought that, too. His episode in season one didn't disappoint, so I have very high hopes for next week. Not least of all because GRRM gets his characters like no other. Obviously.

[jordmundt6]

On the replacement of Jeyne with Talisa--The theory has been advaned that Jeyne could be spying on the northern camp, using "Talisa" as an alias (much like Arya's ally--whatever his real name is). However, I think it more likely that they erased Jeyne and replaced her with Talisa to reflect the expansion of Robb's role in the series and the alteration of his character. He is his father's son, perhaps he is repeating his father's mistake, falling for the same type of woman his father was attracted to in his youth (assuming, of course, that Jon Snow turns out to be Ned's son and not his nephew). Just an idea.

[DeliciousMoon]

I haven't been bothered too much by Jeyne Westerling's change. Her role in the books is tiny and she's really only there to make Robb screw up. My problem is that they way writers handled it was boring. I don't care about either character enough to listen to a 5 minute monologue about Talisa's brother, and then see Robb turned on by a story like that. They tried to make her and Robb interesting, but failed imo. The time could be spend on actual point of view characters. Like where is Sansa?

My biggest issue with the last episode was that they changed Catelyn and Robb's motivations for their mistakes. Catelyn released Jaime after she thought Bran and Rickon were dead. Robb slept with Jeyne after he found out as well. He had also made his mistake before his mother did so he wasn't as harsh to her and understood what she was going through (if he did in the show, then I didn't see it in the portrayal). It was such an unnecessary change too. They could have easily have spread the news to Robb and Catelyn before they screwed up.

Btw, Jaime and Brienne's scene last week was flawless, and I can't wait to see more of their roadtrip adventures!

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

My biggest issue with the last episode was that they changed Catelyn and Robb's motivations for their mistakes. Catelyn released Jaime after she thought Bran and Rickon were dead. Robb slept with Jeyne after he found out as well. He had also made his mistake before his mother did so he wasn't as harsh to her and understood what she was going through (if he did in the show, then I didn't see it in the portrayal). It was such an unnecessary change too. They could have easily have spread the news to Robb and Catelyn before they screwed up.

Agreed. It also took away one of Robb's shining moments in which he outmanoeuvred his mother. It's one of the times she sees him as a king, not a boy trying to be king.

I can't really get behind Talisa because she seems to be a character that would have a hard time existing in this world. I mean, a high-born lady walking all by herself over battlefields. In GRRM's world armies plunder, they pillage, they rape and burn. She wouldn't survive a day. And she seems oddly modern to a point where I just can't suspend my disbelief.

[DeliciousMoon]

Anyone else heard the official show version of "The Rains of Castamere" by The National? I love it!

[RikuStark]

Originally Posted by DeliciousMoon

Anyone else heard the official show version of "The Rains of Castamere" by The National? I love it!

Yes! I just listened to it now, it's really good! I found it a bit chilling.

[DeliciousMoon]

So I loved the Blackwater episode. I'd want George R.R. Martin to write all of the episodes if he didn't have those books to finish.

Sansa was absolutely amazing and my favourite part of the episode, especially her scenes with Cersei. Perfect acting on both parts. Her scene with Joffrey and Tyrion in the beginning was so well done too. And Shae. Ahhh just so good.

I'm very happy they kept the wildfire green. And ending it with the scene with Cersei on the throne with Tommen was well done.

[Lord Godric]

I really wish Martin could write every episode. This was, by far, the greatest episode of the 19 so far. And while everything Martin did in this episode was great particularly his Cersei was excellent. THAT is how I wanted Cersei to be from the beginning. I love that he used the excuse of making her drunk to get her to be her normal self. I just wish we'd see more of that side of Cersei. She was no longer reserved, she was fearless, she spoke her mind and pushed everyone out of her way. That is how she should be.

In addition to Cersei, the Hound scenes were also fantastic (and I'm not a big Hound fan to begin with, but who can't help but love him after his departing scene).

Tyrion was his usually greatness and his speech to rouse the men of King's Landing was as great as ever before war speech should be. I also really like Stannis in this episode. First off the boats, first up the ladders, last to be pulled away from the war. He would have died fighting for his right to the throne. And you have to respect him for that.

These are Martin's characters and it really shows when he writes the episode because he can control them in ways no one else can.

And finally, that final scene where we see Loras and Tywin come and announce the end of the battle literally gave me chills. It was absolutely the perfect ending to the best episode yet.

[jordmundt6]

That definitely was the moment we saw Book Cersei emerge onscreen. Tyrion was excellent. The actress who plays Sansa may just be tonally off.

Tyrion's speech and decision to face his fear worked very well.

Apologies, but who is that page who broke the spear protecting Tyrion.

We also got to see Tommen's impending doom--he may not have taken literal poison, but he's about to be force-fed the metaphorical poison of Cersei's "nuturing." Eesh.

Doesn't Joff have any animal courage? I was under the impression when we started that he was actually supposed to have some skill on the practice field--otherwises why would he be stupid enought to provoke...oh, it's Joffrey (he's the embodiment of idiotic arrogance).