Sirius Black: Character Analysis v.4

[SnapesBane]

In order for Sirius to be prejudice against Kreacher, he would have had to dislike him for being a house elff. He didn't. The hate was acceptible because of the actions took by the elf before and after the deaths of the Blacks.

[JohanT]

I don't think that is necessarily true. While prejudice is usually associated with feelings against a specific group of people, it can relate to the individual in the sense that the prejudiced person in question associates the target with something the target is associated with. It can be defined as "any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence", according to wikipedia. I think Sirius' opinion of Kreacher fits in with this.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by SnapesBane

I see it somewhat different. Kreacher had a tendancy to use racist speech. Kreacher's support for Sirius' mother played a part also. Supporting her means old feelings come up. Family played a part but his views were informed.

Originally Posted by JohanT

Very true. I am also of the opinion, however, that Sirius was determined to hate Kreacher regardless of the circumstances. Simply because he was a reminder of his childhood. While preconceived notions may have been present, I suppose, if I were to tweak the definition slightly, that it was evidently irrational of Sirius to despise to that extent. While Dumbledore preached being reasonable with the elf, Sirius did not listen.

I tend to agree with JohanT on this point.

(Sorry to mods if this goes a little bit Kreacher-y but it does related to Sirius's character, I promise!)

While, yes, Kreacher used racial epithets and touted his mistress's beliefs as his own, it's also shown that when treated kindly as Harry begins to treat him in DH that he is more than capable of responding in kind, dropping those epithets to the best of his ability and treating even Hermione whom he previously called filth and a mudblood with some amount of respect.

Sirius, on the other hand, was blind to this. Dumbledore urged everyone to treat Kreacher with kindness and respect, a huge feat for even the most patient of Order members given Kreacher, before his talk with Harry about Regulus, was a right little a-hole. It's also stated (by Dumbledore) that Sirius was kind to house elves in general so his treatment of Kreacher clearly had to do with some other factor than merely Kreacher being a house elf or inferior to Sirius or whatever. IMO, Sirius was cruel to Kreacher, as JohanT says, because Kreacher reminded him of the family he hated, the prejudices they flaunted and the people Sirius ultimately ran away from home to escape. When Sirius returns to Grimmauld Place in OOTP and is under house arrest Kreacher is the salt that is continually rubbed into Sirius's wounds. Sirius wasn't about to forgive Kreacher for anything because Sirius was still very wounded by his family and Sirius wasn't about to just let it go because Kreacher hadn't been confronted with his story about Regulus and his failed mission which was the catalyst which turned things around for Harry with Kreacher.

[SnapesBane]

That is cruelty, not being prejudiced.

[JohanT]

But where did the cruelty stem from, then? I understand what you mean, as in there was reason for his emotions, but I do not believe that negates the fact that he held bias against Kreacher. While this is not an attack on Sirius, I feel like any prejudice on his part emphasizes his flaws, and that only helps to complete his character.

[SnapesBane]

Im just not seeing how Sirius is prejudiced against immoral and wrongbehavior displayed by Kreecher.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by SnapesBane

Im just not seeing how Sirius is prejudiced against immoral and wrongbehavior displayed by Kreecher.

He is prejudiced against Kreacher in that Kreacher, to Sirius, represents all that he hates and it wouldn't matter at all if Kreacher changed his tune and started singing the praises of every muggleborn on the planet Sirius would still hate him, despise him, whatever.

I'd use an example but I have a feeling it would be too controversial and would be deleted by mods...

[SnapesBane]

Is there evidenec in the text that suggests he wouldnt stop hating Kreecher if he changed?

[StarryVeil]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

While, yes, Kreacher used racial epithets and touted his mistress's beliefs as his own, it's also shown that when treated kindly as Harry begins to treat him in DH that he is more than capable of responding in kind, dropping those epithets to the best of his ability and treating even Hermione whom he previously called filth and a mudblood with some amount of respect.

Except Harry and Hermione didn't have to face Kreacher with the emotional baggage that Sirius had to face Kreacher with. It's much easier to forgive someone you don't know that well as opposed to someone you have a personal history with. Therefore, when it comes to the forgiveness of Kreacher, I definitely don't see Harry and Hermione as more big-hearted and tolerant than Sirius (as a lot of people are wont to do, I've noticed).

Sirius wasn't about to forgive Kreacher for anything because Sirius was still very wounded by his family and Sirius wasn't about to just let it go because Kreacher hadn't been confronted with his story about Regulus and his failed mission which was the catalyst which turned things around for Harry with Kreacher.

Maybe if Kreacher had given Sirius an opportunity to forgive him, we would have an instance to back this up. As it is, I don't see any textual evidence that indicates that Sirius was irrationally prejudiced against Kreacher or anything like that. He had a reason, it was valid IMO, and Kreacher certainly didn't help matters. I think people forget that Sirius, also, was an extremely damaged man and was certainly in no state to be Mr. Understanding.

Originally Posted by JohanT

I understand what you mean, as in there was reason for his emotions, but I do not believe that negates the fact that he held bias against Kreacher.

I'm not understanding your point. What is wrong with such a bias? Kreacher is a devoted member of the family Sirius hates and leaves no stone unturned in professing his undying loyalty to that vile family. It's like saying someone is prejudiced towards terrorists and supporters of terrorists. Is that a flaw? Not for me, no.

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

He is prejudiced against Kreacher in that Kreacher, to Sirius, represents all that he hates and it wouldn't matter at all if Kreacher changed his tune and started singing the praises of every muggleborn on the planet Sirius would still hate him, despise him, whatever.

We don't really have any proof of that. All we saw was Kreacher behaving badly and Sirius behaving badly back at him.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by SnapesBane

Is there evidenec in the text that suggests he wouldnt stop hating Kreecher if he changed?

No, it's implied, as I said in my previous post. When Sirius looked at Kreacher he saw his mudblood-hating mother, his Slytherin-loving and family-suck-upping brother, the house he grew up in and hated, the house in which he was imprisoned once he was "set free" of Azkaban... Kreacher, for Sirius, holds no good connotations, is not linked to anything good in his mind and if it were up to Sirius, whether Kreacher changed or not, he would send Kreacher away at once just to be rid of the reminder of what he hated.

[JohanT]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

I'm not understanding your point. What is wrong with such a bias? Kreacher is a devoted member of the family Sirius hates and leaves no stone unturned in professing his undying loyalty to that vile family. It's like saying someone is prejudiced towards terrorists and supporters of terrorists. Is that a flaw? Not for me, no.

But what is Kreacher's reason for loving the family and professing this undying loyalty? Nothing but for the kindness he received as a result of being a servant to this family. I am not partial to Kreacher (who is not a terrorist), however, I cannot deny that Sirius' feelings towards him were irrational in nature, to the point where he did not heed Dumbledore's advice to treat Kreacher with at least some form of dignity. It wasn't Kreacher himself that Sirius so desperately disliked. It was the fact that Kreacher reminded him of the Blacks. In addition, I should reiterate that this main "accusation" of mine stems from Sirius' unyielding hatred, rather than any justification of his bias.

[StarryVeil]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

Kreacher, for Sirius, holds no good connotations, is not linked to anything good in his mind and if it were up to Sirius, whether Kreacher changed or not, he would send Kreacher away at once just to be rid of the reminder of what he hated.

I never read any implications in the text that Sirius would have hated Kreacher even if Kreacher had been nice. What is clear, I think, is that Sirius hated his family for the vile ideas they endorsed. However, he wasn't so irrational that he would hate a Black just for being part of the family, regardless of whether or not they were good as people. This is evidenced in his fondness for Andromeda and his Uncle Alphard. Therefore, for me, Sirius hated Kreacher for being a Black (of sorts) who ardently endorsed racism, not for just being a Black.

Originally Posted by JohanT

But what is Kreacher's reason for loving the family and professing this undying loyalty? Nothing but for the kindness he received as a result of being a servant to this family.

Yeah, and perhaps if Sirius had been in the right state of mind, he would have been able to understand that. As it stands in the books, however, he doesn't have that stability of mind after his stint in Azkaban and being imprisoned once again in OotP. Therefore, it beats me how all the blame for this situation is constantly heaped onto Sirius.

I am not partial to Kreacher (who is not a terrorist)...

No, he's not a terrorist but he's an ardent supporter - and later co-conspirator - of them.

And I'd say that prejudice in general is a large flaw, regardless of where it is directed. I have prejudice, but I readily acknowledge the fact that it is nothing but a set of faulty thoughts.

Sorry, but I don't see anything wrong in being "prejudiced" towards terrorists or criminals or any immoral people. If that were true, then all the people on the good side could be called prejudiced for disliking people who practice the Dark Arts. Therefore, I don't understand your argument about Sirius's "prejudice" against his family being a flaw in his character. On the contrary, I look at it as a major strength in his character.

[JohanT]

Originally Posted by StarryVeil

Yeah, and perhaps if Sirius had been in the right state of mind, he would have been able to understand that. As it stands in the books, however, he doesn't have that stability of mind after his stint in Azkaban and being imprisoned once again in OotP. Therefore, it beats me how all the blame for this situation is constantly heaped onto Sirius.

All blame is not placed on him. However, as this is his character thread, we must discuss his part in this enmity. I don't believe anyone, myself included, has blamed Sirius solely for this. Again, this is not about justifying his bias, but acknowledging that he was biased.

Sorry, but I don't see anything wrong in being "prejudiced" towards terrorists or criminals or any immoral people. If that were true, then all the people on the good side could be called prejudiced for disliking people who practice the Dark Arts. Therefore, I don't understand your argument about Sirius's "prejudice" against his family being a flaw in his character. On the contrary, I look at it as a major strength in his character.

Oh, I was just stating the irony of fighting against prejudice while being prejudiced, which I believe factors in perfectly with Sirius' characterization. Sirius just happens to exemplify this due to his background and childhood, from which he tried so hard to escape, but seems to constantly fall into the hands of biased thought. I don't think it is about being "wrong", though. For reference of what I was truly attempting to present, look to the last sentence of my first paragraph.

But, of course, I see prejudice as just one concept, and not something that is split up, and does not vary in a moral basis as situations change.

[OldMotherCrow]

I'm not seeing "prejudice" in Sirius against his family. He seemed to have liked Andromeda and Tonks well enough, and that Uncle who left him a house. I think Sirius didn't like individual members of his family because of what they supported and what they did as, and liked other members of his family based on what they supported and what they did.

[mirrormere]

Technically, Sirius was not prejudiced against Kreacher. Prejudice is pre-judging someone and Sirius knew Kreacher very well. Sirius's problem was that either he was ignorant of the nature of house elves and lacked the skills to help Kreacher change or chose not to for whatever reason (he thought it beneath him, he couldn't get past his miserable childhood experiences with Kreacher, too lazy, etc).

House elves seemed to behave like two-legged, talking dogs, with a bit more intelligence. If a criminal who owns a dog and treats it well earns that dog's loyalty, the dog will protect that master and his property even against "good" people. If the dog is separated from this owner, it can eventually accept and transfer it's loyalties to a new master if treated properly and given time. Part of Kreacher's problem was Mrs. Black's portrait which he treated as if it were alive. Sirius either didn't understand this or willfully chose to ignore it to his detriment (as per Dumbledore's advice.)

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by JohanT

All blame is not placed on him. However, as this is his character thread, we must discuss his part in this enmity. I don't believe anyone, myself included, has blamed Sirius solely for this. Again, this is not about justifying his bias, but acknowledging that he was biased.




Oh, I was just stating the irony of fighting against prejudice while being prejudiced, which I believe factors in perfectly with Sirius' characterization. Sirius just happens to exemplify this due to his background and childhood, from which he tried so hard to escape, but seems to constantly fall into the hands of biased thought. I don't think it is about being "wrong", though. For reference of what I was truly attempting to present, look to the last sentence of my first paragraph.

But, of course, I see prejudice as just one concept, and not something that is split up, and does not vary in a moral basis as situations change.

I think the question would be what bias did Sirius have? Sirius had no bias against house elves in general as far as we're shown. He disliked Kreacher because they had a history - a very negative history - between them and Kreacher was always very antagonistic towards Sirius as well as the people he cared about - calling them mudbloods, blood traitors, and filth naturally made Sirius and others angry, IMO.

What stands out more to me is the fact that - in spite of Kreacher's insolence and antagonistic behavior - Sirius never forced him to physically harm himself. Poor Dobby was constantly forced to do things like iron his hands or shut his ears in the stove for even the slightest infraction when he belonged to the Malfoys and he always had bandages on because of this. We never see Kreacher with such injuries or any bandages. The worst Sirius ever did was yell at Kreacher and throw him out of a room for being rude and antagonistic.

Likewise, Sirius showed some compassion towards Kreacher when Hermione suggested he be freed. Sirius told Hermione that being forced into freedom and forced to leave the house would kill Kreacher - in which case, it wouldn't have mattered what Kreacher knew. But as much as Sirius disliked Kreacher because of his behavior and their negative history, he didn't want to physically hurt him or kill him, IMO.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

What stands out more to me is the fact that - in spite of Kreacher's insolence and antagonistic behavior - Sirius never forced him to physically harm himself. Poor Dobby was constantly forced to do things like iron his hands or shut his ears in the stove for even the slightest infraction when he belonged to the Malfoys and he always had bandages on because of this. We never see Kreacher with such injuries or any bandages. The worst Sirius ever did was yell at Kreacher and throw him out of a room for being rude and antagonistic.

Very quickly because this has nothing to do with Sirius but I always thought that Dobby's punishments were to extreme as a way to make readers dislike the Malfoys (and later the extended family of the Blacks which included Bellatrix) more and show that they are cruel and horrible people. I never thought that the Malfoys' treatment of Dobby was indicative of how all wizards treated house elves, I thought they were the extreme example.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

Very quickly because this has nothing to do with Sirius but I always thought that Dobby's punishments were to extreme as a way to make readers dislike the Malfoys (and later the extended family of the Blacks which included Bellatrix) more and show that they are cruel and horrible people. I never thought that the Malfoys' treatment of Dobby was indicative of how all wizards treated house elves, I thought they were the extreme example.

That was my take as well. From what we see with Winky and Kreacher it was not an automatic behavior all house-elves did nor was it a standard punishment required by all wizards who owned house-elves. Winky was actually treated very well before the incident at the World Cup. Sirius did not like Kreacher because of their history and Kreacher's antagonistic because, but no matter how badly Kreacher behaved, Sirius never made him hurt himself that way.

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

That was my take as well. From what we see with Winky and Kreacher it was not an automatic behavior all house-elves did nor was it a standard punishment required by all wizards who owned house-elves. Winky was actually treated very well before the incident at the World Cup. Sirius did not like Kreacher because of their history and Kreacher's antagonistic because, but no matter how badly Kreacher behaved, Sirius never made him hurt himself that way.

But Kreacher does behave this way:

DH: Kreacher's Tale “ — and the locket, Master Regulus’s locket, Kreacher did wrong, Kreacher failed in his orders!” Harry reacted instinctively: As Kreacher lunged for the poker standing in the grate, he launched himself upon the elf, flattening him. Hermione’s scream mingled with Kreacher’s, but Harry bellowed louder than both of them: “Kreacher, I order you to stay still!"

I don't think the Malfoy's made Dobby punish himself--we see a few instances, after he is free, where he tries to punish himself for some imagined offense. I think it's just their nature.

At the same time, DD says that Kreacher played a bit loose with the rules when Sirius told him to get out and he liberally interpreted that to mean out of the house.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

But Kreacher does behave this way:I don't think the Malfoy's made Dobby punish himself--we see a few instances, after he is free, where he tries to punish himself for some imagined offense. I think it's just their nature.

At the same time, DD says that Kreacher played a bit loose with the rules when Sirius told him to get out and he liberally interpreted that to mean out of the house.

Dobby states that the Malfoy's did make him do 'extra punishments.' The way he speaks makes it seem, to me at least, that they ordered him to punish himself for any disobeying.

That said, I do believe that house-elves seem to want to punish themselves for any misbehaviour naturally, so long as they want to serve a given master, and I think your example with Kreacher supports that point well.

I think the relevant point is whether Sirius ever took advantage of his position of power over Kreacher- whether he abused it in any way. For the most part, Sirius treated Kreacher almost as an equal. He had the power to make Kreacher punish himself for any rude language or behaviour; he had the power to starve him or make him stay perfectly still, but the worst he ever did was make him leave. At worst, he treated him like an unruly child. At best, he treated him as an unpleasant room-mate.