General 'What If...?' Thread

[Charlotte_Snape]

Originally Posted by HufflePuff137

Question: If Snape had married Lily, would he have wanted kids? He was really nasty to most of the students, but perhaps it was because he'd become bitter and cynical?...

Okay, but why would Lily marry a DE to begin with? To me, it doesn't matter what Voldemort would have wanted if they were married, because the idea that Lily would have married into that circle in the first place is very unlikely (contradicts the characterization in the books )

IMO, Lily/Snape could only have happened in a Voldemort-free world. With no evil gang for Snape to latch onto, and no wizarding war giving James an incentive to mature, it's at least possible that Lily and Snape would have remained close, and that she would have developed feelings for him in return (at least, JK said that she could have loved him that way if he hadn't been attracted to the dark arts).

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

I also think that if Snape had kids he'd love them even though he might continue to not like "kids" in general - like Miranda from Sex and the City when she comments on her own baby "I don't like any children by my own."

I can totally see that I know a couple curmudgeons like that in RL (love their own kids, but can't stand kids in general). Generally, I imagine he would be the strict father type.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape

Okay, but why would Lily marry a DE to begin with? To me, it doesn't matter what Voldemort would have wanted if they were married, because the idea that Lily would have married into that circle in the first place is very unlikely (contradicts the characterization in the books )

Indeed, the idea is very unlikely. A Lily/Snape relationship would require one of them to be utterly different from the canon versions. The Lily we see in canon wanted nothing to do with Death Eater thugs; she had a conscience and self-respect. But a Snape who got what he wanted in terms of a relationship with Lily would have no incentive not to become a DE. If he felt that he could do whatever he wished and Lily was doormat enough to accept his crimes/turn a blind eye, then Snape would have remained on the path he was on. If Lily had been that doormat, then her children would have been brought up to follow the DE credo.

IMO, Lily/Snape could only have happened in a Voldemort-free world. With no evil gang for Snape to latch onto, and no wizarding war giving James an incentive to mature, it's at least possible that Lily and Snape would have remained close, and that she would have developed feelings for him in return (at least, JK said that she could have loved him that way if he hadn't been attracted to the dark arts).

In other words, a world where Snape has no moral choices to make. So Snape can resist anything except temptation? Where is Snape's responsibility in all of this?
Even without Voldemort, there would have been Dark Arts as a quick and easy path to being "important". There would still have been extremist bigots among the "important" people for Snape to attach himself to.

I can totally see that I know a couple curmudgeons like that in RL (love their own kids, but can't stand kids in general). Generally, I imagine he would be the strict father type.

Or the type that wanted as little as possible to do with his kids.

[Charlotte_Snape]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

In other words, a world where Snape has no moral choices to make.

So people only have moral choices to make during times of war? I think people have moral choices to make no matter what times they're living in, but my point here is simply that growing up in a time of war can influence the course of a person's life.

JK said that he joined the DEs because he wanted to be part of something big & important. Essentially he chose his ambitions over Lily. All I'm arguing is that without that particular outlet for his ambitions, it's possible that Snape would have made different choices.

Even without Voldemort, there would have been Dark Arts as a quick and easy path to being "important".

I think it's equally possible that Snape's interest in the dark arts would have died out altogether as he got older, if it wasn't for the reality of Voldemort & the DE's existence feeding the fantasy of "becoming important".

There would still have been extremist bigots among the "important" people for Snape to attach himself to.

Well, he was prejudiced against muggles as a boy, but this prejudice is not proof that he always desired to attach himself to people with a much more extremist position. Again, in a scenario where the DEs didn't exist at all, I think Snape would still be ambitious, and would have gone on to become successful through a traditional channel.


Basically, the thing for me about the OP's original question is that if Lily & Snape married and had kids, then we are obviously not talking about canon Snape lol. Lily has always had a good head on her shoulders, and good people surrounding her, so if I'm asked to imagine a scenario where she marries Snape and they have kids, then I already know - as a given - that certain things must be different about Snape's character.

To that end, the only scenario I can imagine where it would be possible is one where Voldemort never existed, and the war never happened. However, I think his personal prejudice against muggles would still be a deal-breaker for Lily, so it's not like he wouldn't have any moral decisions to make - he would.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by Charlotte_Snape

So people only have moral choices to make during times of war? I think people have moral choices to make no matter what times they're living in, but my point here is simply that growing up in a time of war can influence the course of a person's life.

I did not say that. Here is a section of your previous post:

IMO, Lily/Snape could only have happened in a Voldemort-free world. With no evil gang for Snape to latch onto, and no wizarding war giving James an incentive to mature, it's at least possible that Lily and Snape would have remained close, and that she would have developed feelings for him in return (at least, JK said that she could have loved him that way if he hadn't been attracted to the dark arts).

This seems to imply that Snape only had to make a moral choice because Voldemort existed. That Snape only held prejudices and an unhealthy interest in Dark Magic because Voldemort existed. Bigotry based on blood existed long before Voldemort. Dark Magic would have been there with or without Voldemort. Voldemort is not the reason for Snape going down a dark path and embracing prejudices. If that were the case, one could dismiss the whole theme of choice in the HP series and cast Snape as the helpless victim of fate.

JK said that he joined the DEs because he wanted to be part of something big & important. Essentially he chose his ambitions over Lily. All I'm arguing is that without that particular outlet for his ambitions, it's possible that Snape would have made different choices.

There would still be other criminal outlets for his ambitions. Especially as his ambitions involved Dark Magic.

I think it's equally possible that Snape's interest in the dark arts would have died out altogether as he got older, if it wasn't for the reality of Voldemort & the DE's existence feeding the fantasy of "becoming important".

There would be other outlets for Snape's interest in Dark Magic. Also, Snape's desire to be important came from himself, not from the existence of a group of murdering fanatics. He would still have had that desire to be important if the DEs had not existed. He would still have seen Dark Arts as a shortcut to get what he wanted. He would still have had the same egocentric view of the world. A world without Voldemort does not mean that Snape's basic personality would be any different.

Basically, the thing for me about the OP's original question is that if Lily & Snape married and had kids, then we are obviously not talking about canon Snape lol. Lily has always had a good head on her shoulders, and good people surrounding her, so if I'm asked to imagine a scenario where she marries Snape and they have kids, then I already know - as a given - that certain things must be different about Snape's character.

Yes, clearly a Snape/Lily relationship cannot involve the canon versions of the characters. For Snape/Lily to happen, either we get a Snape with a conscience, or a Lily with no conscience and no self-respect.

So why must it be a given that Snape never became a DE to discuss this scenario? This is all hypothetical, so if we're discussing scenarios where Snape and Lily got together, then one scenario, one that doesn't involve wiping Voldemort out of the picture, is where Lily didn't have a shred of self-respect and didn't mind being involved with a DE as long as she herself was unharmed. Where Snape felt that he could have his cake and eat it because Lily wouldn't object anyway.

[Hes]

Okay I think we can move this discussion to Snape's character thread now. As you know we don't really allow any Snape discussions outside his own special thread. And this is veering into character analysis territory.

[Charlotte_Snape]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

So why must it be a given that Snape never became a DE to discuss this scenario?

You're right. It's the "what if" thread, after all. And since we're talking infinite possibilities, I choose to imagine that Snape would have made better choices

Originally Posted by Hes

Okay I think we can move this discussion to Snape's character thread now. As you know we don't really allow any Snape discussions outside his own special thread. And this is veering into character analysis territory.

Sorry for delving into it. I was just trying to explain my pov.

[MrSleepyHead]

Originally Posted by merrymarge

What if the Sorting Hat is already a horcrux from Slytherin?

I remember when this was a very popular theory. But not from Slytherin, but from Gryffindor. It started when a couple of astute fans realized that Dumbledore's comment in HBP ("I am confident, however, that the only known relic of Gryffindor remains safe.” Dumbledore pointed his blackened fingers to the wall behind him, where a ruby-encrusted sword reposed within a glass case.) was not quite accurate for the Sorting Hat said in one of his songs that he once belonged to Gryffindor.

I was a very serious follower of this theory (possibly because I realized this without external help!) until JKR squashed it saying that Horcruxes are not the type to draw attention to themselves.

But I still think it was one of the more eloquent and canon-based theories out there. Of course, most fans had realized who R.A.B. was and the locket from Grimmauld Place - but few other Horcrux theories were near the truth. I remember expecting Dumbledore to be wrong about Nagini (even while reading DH for the first time) and for the Sorting Hat to be a relic from Gryffindor and an unknown object from Ravenclaw. So if the Sorting Hat had turned out to be a Horcrux, I would have been one of a fair few fans to be very happy about our sleuthing!

And I still wonder about this theory's plausibility. Would the Sorting Hat be more difficult to destroy, given its soul piece from Voldemort and its "brains" from the founders? And don't those "brains" from the founders sound awfully similar to soul fragments, the way that they more or less gave life to a hat for over 1,000 years - just like Riddle's diary was sentient? And then, if the Sorting Hat had to be destroyed, how would the Sorting be handled in the future? So many interesting repercussions, if only...

[asdfasdf17]

What if Harry had decided to be Draco's friend in the first book? If Voldemort ended up coming back, and Lucius was a Deatheater, would Draco be forced to betray Harry? Or would he switch sides and stay by Harry's side?

[Revaunch]

Originally Posted by asdfasdf17

What if Harry had decided to be Draco's friend in the first book? If Voldemort ended up coming back, and Lucius was a Deatheater, would Draco be forced to betray Harry? Or would he switch sides and stay by Harry's side?

I wondered about this the last time I read SS. I think that if everything else stayed the same Draco would have betrayed Harry even if they were the best of friends. He was under way too much pressure to save his family after OOTP and I can't see him making different choices based on a freindship with Harry.

I also don't think Lucius would have approved of Draco being friends with Harry. Especially after the events in COS!

[asdfasdf17]

Originally Posted by Revaunch

I wondered about this the last time I read SS. I think that if everything else stayed the same Draco would have betrayed Harry even if they were the best of friends. He was under way too much pressure to save his family after OOTP and I can't see him making different choices based on a freindship with Harry.

I also don't think Lucius would have approved of Draco being friends with Harry. Especially after the events in COS!

That makes senses. But I figured that Draco choose to save his family because he truly loved and cared about them. If he were very good friends with Harry, he would have cared too much about him to want to betray him (when Crabbe dies in DH Draco seems really upset which shows he does care about his friends).

But your probably right about Lucius not liking Draco being friends with Harry.

[ShadowSonic]

I don't think a Draco/Harry friendship would have lasted very long once Harry got to see Draco's true nature as a racist blood supremacist. They'd have drifted apart pretty soon.

[Revaunch]

Originally Posted by asdfasdf17

That makes senses. But I figured that Draco choose to save his family because he truly loved and cared about them. If he were very good friends with Harry, he would have cared too much about him to want to betray him (when Crabbe dies in DH Draco seems really upset which shows he does care about his friends).

But your probably right about Lucius not liking Draco being friends with Harry.

Harry and Draco are on such different paths right from the beginning. If they had become friends both of them would have had to make difficult choices to try and maintain a close relationship. They seem like complete opposites and yet both of them are leaders. So I could see a lot of disagreements about morals and plans of action. If they were friends I could see Harry betraying Draco's friendship just by being himself. I doubt Draco would enjoy visiting Hagrid. Harry wouldn't like making fun of Ron. It seems that ending their freindship would be inevitable. It would make the ROR scene in DH a bit more dramatic and Harry's capture at Malfoy manor would take on a whole new meaning.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by Revaunch

I wondered about this the last time I read SS. I think that if everything else stayed the same Draco would have betrayed Harry even if they were the best of friends. He was under way too much pressure to save his family after OOTP and I can't see him making different choices based on a freindship with Harry.

I also don't think Lucius would have approved of Draco being friends with Harry. Especially after the events in COS!

Wasn't there a point where Malfoy was encouraging Draco to befriend Harry? Seems to me I remember that being used as a reason Prof. Snape could have been more friendly to Harry. . . .

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by Revaunch

Harry and Draco are on such different paths right from the beginning. If they had become friends both of them would have had to make difficult choices to try and maintain a close relationship. They seem like complete opposites and yet both of them are leaders. So I could see a lot of disagreements about morals and plans of action. If they were friends I could see Harry betraying Draco's friendship just by being himself. I doubt Draco would enjoy visiting Hagrid. Harry wouldn't like making fun of Ron. It seems that ending their freindship would be inevitable. It would make the ROR scene in DH a bit more dramatic and Harry's capture at Malfoy manor would take on a whole new meaning.

The thing is, those are the very things that made Harry not want to be friends with Draco in the first place when they met at Madame Malkin's. Draco was being obnoxious - talking about bullying his parents into getting him a broom so he could break the rules and smuggle it into Hogwarts, making snide comments about Hogwarts shouldn't let "the other kind" in, making fun of Hagrid. Harry was reminded of Dudley - particularly with how spoiled Draco was acting - and immediately did not like Draco. That was only reinforced on the train when Draco showed up with Crabbe and Goyle and made fun of Ron and then decided to take the candy they'd been sharing.

Knowing that, the only way for Harry and Draco to have become friends was for one of them to be a completely different person. Either Draco would have to be a better person who was not a spoiled brat making fun of people he considered inferior to himself or Harry would have to be a worse person who thought bullying your parents and making fun of people you consider inferior to yourself were cool. In either of those scenarios I wouldn't expect any kind of betrayal because they would want similar things. If Draco were a better person, he wouldn't have wanted to become a Death Eater at all and probably would have gone to his friend for help if Voldemort had threatened him. If Harry were a worse person, he wouldn't have done any of the things he did because he wouldn't have that "saving people thing" or be selfless enough to be willing to risk his life to do something good or help people.

Of course, there is a third option there - if Draco had known he was talking to Harry Potter that day in Madame Malkin's, he might have handled that very differently. Lucius would have loved for Draco to become close friends with Harry after all. Harry was famous and there were all sorts of questions and rumors about "The Boy Who Lived" - did Voldemort fail because Harry was a powerful wizard from birth? They all wondered. Draco becoming Harry's friend would have been quite a coup for Lucius. In that event, it seems likely Draco would have been more cautious in what he said to Harry because everyone knew Harry had been sent to live with muggle relatives. However, I would also say that would still not be a friendship that would last very long because Draco would have shown his true colors fairly soon after they got to Hogwarts - or even on the train - and Harry would have realized that he didn't want to be friends with someone like that.

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Wasn't there a point where Malfoy was encouraging Draco to befriend Harry? Seems to me I remember that being used as a reason Prof. Snape could have been more friendly to Harry. . . .

In COS, Harry overheard Lucius lecturing Draco on how it was not prudent to be so negative about Harry when most of the wizarding world considered him a hero who had gotten rid of Voldemort. It was implied that Lucius was disappointed that Draco had not managed to befriend Harry.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

I don't think a Draco/Harry friendship would have lasted very long once Harry got to see Draco's true nature as a racist blood supremacist. They'd have drifted apart pretty soon.

I agree. Harry would never have been okay with the prejudiced tripe Draco spouted. Harry did not like Draco's ideas that some people should be excluded, just because he thought he was better and they were different. A Harry who approved of Draco's ideas along that line would be a much less likeable and a selfish and unpleasant person.

Originally Posted by Revaunch

Harry and Draco are on such different paths right from the beginning. If they had become friends both of them would have had to make difficult choices to try and maintain a close relationship. They seem like complete opposites and yet both of them are leaders. So I could see a lot of disagreements about morals and plans of action.

Morals would be a complete split point. Draco would cheer the idea of Voldemort getting his paws on the Stone. Draco relished the idea of children being attacked by the monster of Slytherin. I don't think these are things Harry could or should overlook as minor disagreements that don't impact a friendship. These are massive fundamental differences.

Interesting point on them both being leaders - Harry would never have been willing to be Draco's mindless lackey, being ordered about.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Of course, there is a third option there - if Draco had known he was talking to Harry Potter that day in Madame Malkin's, he might have handled that very differently. Lucius would have loved for Draco to become close friends with Harry after all. Harry was famous and there were all sorts of questions and rumors about "The Boy Who Lived" - did Voldemort fail because Harry was a powerful wizard from birth? They all wondered. Draco becoming Harry's friend would have been quite a coup for Lucius.

That option might have worked - Harry might have befriended Draco if he'd thought Draco was a decent person. I agree, Lucius would have surely relished that - inside information on Harry Potter, getting to boast of yet another important connection his family had.

In that event, it seems likely Draco would have been more cautious in what he said to Harry because everyone knew Harry had been sent to live with muggle relatives. However, I would also say that would still not be a friendship that would last very long because Draco would have shown his true colors fairly soon after they got to Hogwarts - or even on the train - and Harry would have realized that he didn't want to be friends with someone like that.

Perhaps - or perhaps Draco would have watched his mouth around Harry. The friendship might have lasted a long time before Draco showed his true colours.
Or, Draco might have felt secure in the idea that Harry was following his leadership and would think what Draco told him to think.

Would Harry listen to rumours at Hogwarts about the Malfoy family if he had befriended Draco? Or would he have had the Malfoy version beforehand, painting the family as innocent victims coerced by the Dark Lord? Just like the version sold to the Ministry after Voldemort fell.

[ShadowSonic]

Given how Draco doesn't have much in the way of subtlety or restraint, I doubt he'd have managed to pull off an act for Harry for very long. He'd have blown it and shown his true self and beliefs in front of Harry soon enough for Harry to realize he'd been played.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

That option might have worked - Harry might have befriended Draco if he'd thought Draco was a decent person. I agree, Lucius would have surely relished that - inside information on Harry Potter, getting to boast of yet another important connection his family had.



Perhaps - or perhaps Draco would have watched his mouth around Harry. The friendship might have lasted a long time before Draco showed his true colours.
Or, Draco might have felt secure in the idea that Harry was following his leadership and would think what Draco told him to think.

Would Harry listen to rumours at Hogwarts about the Malfoy family if he had befriended Draco? Or would he have had the Malfoy version beforehand, painting the family as innocent victims coerced by the Dark Lord? Just like the version sold to the Ministry after Voldemort fell.

I don't think Draco would have been able to maintain such an act for very long. Nor do I think he would have wanted to. I can see Draco putting on an act and watching what he said around Harry during that first meeting at Madame Malkins if he had known he was talking to Harry Potter because there was so much unknown about Harry at that time. Nobody knew how he had managed to survive as a baby while Voldemort was destroyed. There were lots of rumors and questions that went around. We get a bit of a glimpse of that in COS with Ernie telling Hannah and Susan that maybe Harry survived because he was a powerful Dark Wizard himself. The Death Eaters wondered that as well and they wondered if, perhaps, Harry could be someone for them to rally around since Voldemort was gone because of such rumors. So I can see Draco being careful at first and putting on such an act - with a lot of coaching from his father - if he had known he would be running into Harry Potter in Diagon Alley that day.

However, it wouldn't have taken very long for Draco to realize that Harry was not a Dark Wizard and that he didn't know very much about the wizarding world in general. It is likely that Draco would have tried to influence Harry's beliefs - possibly even using how horrible the Dursleys had treated Harry if he learned about that - in hopes that he would be supportive of the pure-blood ideology but I think that would result in Harry having a similar realization about Draco and being reminded of Dudley.

In that event, I think that would have fallen apart on the train ride to Hogwarts - particularly with people like Crabbe and Goyle being added to the mix. That's where I think Draco would have attempted to influence Harry - telling him how inferior muggles and muggleborns were, etc... The correlations to Dudley and his gang would have become clear to Harry on the train ride I think. The only question there would be whether Harry would stick that out for the duration of the ride or would he have left and found Ron sitting in a compartment by himself and joined him? Regardless, I think the end result would always be Harry sitting on that stool and telling the Sorting Hat "Not Slytherin".

[RegulusBlackFan]

I have wondered this for quite a long time, how different would the series be if Remus Lupin hadn't been bitten, and therefore if he wasn't a werewolf.
Here are a few questions that I would love your opinions about:

Would Wormtail have been able to betray the Potters without getting caught, (as he wouldn't have been able to turn into a rat due to them not becoming animagi)?

Therefore would Potter have got Voldemort's abilities that he has in the book?

Would a prophecy have not been made that would apply to Harry?

Would Lupin have remained friends with James and Sirius?

Without James needing to save Snape's life, would Snape have this despising yet, protective relationship wit Harry?

Would Remus have married Lilly?

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I don't think Draco would have been able to maintain such an act for very long. Nor do I think he would have wanted to.

Good point, he was an eleven year old child after all, not a master of disguise. Draco might have been warned by Lucius to tread carefully and to watch what he said, so I think he might have tried to watch what he said. However, it might not have lasted long.

So I can see Draco being careful at first and putting on such an act - with a lot of coaching from his father - if he had known he would be running into Harry Potter in Diagon Alley that day.

If Draco had known he was speaking to Harry in Madam Malkins, and behaved better, I agree, Lucius would have coached him in what he should and should not say around Harry. He would have had no way of knowing when Harry was going to be in Diagon Alley, but if he'd gone with introductions before spouting off his prejudices, he might have watched what he was saying without any coaching from Lucius.

Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan

Would Wormtail have been able to betray the Potters without getting caught, (as he wouldn't have been able to turn into a rat due to them not becoming animagi)?

Therefore would Potter have got Voldemort's abilities that he has in the book?

Peter Pettigrew would still have been a spy and a traitor if he had not been an Animagus. It would simply have made it harder for him to make a getaway and remain hidden. He could have jumped into the crater he made in the street as a human and laid low for a while. It would have been much much harder than remaining hidden as a rat. He didn't betray his friends because he was an Animagus, that just made it easier for him to escape once it had backfired on him. Voldemort would still have targetted the Potters, Lily would still have chosen to protect her child, Harry would have survived and Voldemort left without his body - none of that was because of Remus being a werewolf.

Would a prophecy have not been made that would apply to Harry?

The prophecy had nothing to do with Remus being bitten, so I can't imagine it would change if he hadn't been bitten.

Would Lupin have remained friends with James and Sirius?

Lupin might have been a very different person if he had not grown up with the stigma and unhappiness of being a werewolf. However, he might still have been friends with James and Sirius.

Without James needing to save Snape's life, would Snape have this despising yet, protective relationship wit Harry?

Lily choosing and loving someone without a Dark Mark would still have left Snape resentful of the existence of her child. I can't see that changing.

Would Remus have married Lilly?

We don't see any indication of a romantic attachment between them on either side, so I doubt it.

[StarryVeil]

Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan

Would Wormtail have been able to betray the Potters without getting caught, (as he wouldn't have been able to turn into a rat due to them not becoming animagi)?

He might have found some other way to remain hidden. It would have been harder and being an Animagus was certainly convenient for him but I think he would still have betrayed the Potters and tried to frame Sirius. His chances of success would have been lower as a non-Animagus, though.

Would a prophecy have not been made that would apply to Harry?

This doesn't really have anything to do with Remus being a werewolf so I suppose, yes, the prophecy plot would have remained.

Would Lupin have remained friends with James and Sirius?

Yes, I don't see why not. All three were smart, fun-loving, and good-hearted; I can see a friendship even without the werewolf factor. And James and Sirius never treated him badly - if they did, I think even werewolf-Remus had enough pride to leave their company. Which he didn't.

Without James needing to save Snape's life, would Snape have this despising yet, protective relationship wit Harry?

I don't think Snape would ever have been able to whole-heartedly accept and respect the fact that Lily loved another man. The fact that the "another man" in question was James simply happened to be the salt on Snape's wounds. So, yes, I think that as long as Harry was Lily's son and Harry's father wasn't Snape, Snape would have continued to despise and protect him.

Would Remus have married Lilly?

Don't really see any indication of why that would be a possibility.