The Elder Wand v.2

[Hes]

This thread discusses all elements of the Elder Wand, it´s origins, it´s allegiance etc.

Be aware that opinions vary and disagree respectfully.

last three posts of version 1:    

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl The curse does not work on Harry. But that doesn't mean the curse is not properly cast, it means that Harry is protected from its effects. The AK was perfectly fine, there was nothing wrong with it; it killed Voldemort. If we have the effect confirmed on page, I don't see how it can be dismissed as "not working". Despite any role the Elder Wand may have played in the final confrontation, it wasn't ineffective curses. We also have to consider that perhaps, due to Voldemort's actions in the Forest, Harry's blood protection reverted to its original state where Voldemort can't kill him, and can't even touch him as well. Originally Posted by meesha1971 No curse that Voldemort cast on Harry would function properly because Harry was the true master of the Elder wand. Voldemort had been able to use the Elder wand on others with no problem - it didn't give him the boost of power he expected because he wasn't its true master, but it did work for him essentially as well as his yew wand did. The significant factor in that is Harry being the master of the wand rather than the wand itself, IMO. Lily's protection would have been the catalyst for that - and that occurred almost immediately after that protection was created. However, the same is true for Harry because his sacrifice created a protection charm as well. I also think the deep connections between Voldemort and Harry were significant to all of that. We are with Harry throughout and he was not aware of what happened after the curse hit him because he immediately went to Kings Cross. It was when he returned and woke up that he realized something had happened that caused Voldemort to get knocked unconscious as well. Because in Godric's Hollow, Harry did not go to Kings Cross or its equivalent. Voldemort and Harry were connected in various ways - the first connection being forged that night in Godric's Hollow when that fragment of Voldemort's soul attached itself to Harry. Voldemort using Harry's blood in GOF forged another connection between them. Harry's "death" destroyed that fragment of Voldemort's soul so that connection was broken, but the blood tether still existed. When Voldemort was knocked unconscious, what was left of his soul was dragged into Kings Cross with Harry's because of that connection, IMO. Snape might have ended up with the Elder wand in his possession after he killed Dumbledore, but that would not have made him master of the wand. As was explained on page, having possession of the wand is not enough. The only way to master the Elder wand is to defeat its current master. Dumbledore ensured that Snape could not become master of the Elder wand by giving him permission to kill him. There was nothing for Snape to overcome so there was no defeat. The Elder wand would not transfer its allegiance to someone who only won because they were allowed to by its current master because that would not demonstrate them to be more powerful. From what we are shown, Dumbledore knew that. Dumbledore's portrait confirms that as well when Harry asks after Voldemort was defeated. Harry's conclusions about Dumbledore's plan to break the power of the wand by dying undefeated are not contradicted in any way by the text, IMO. Actually, that didn't endanger Dumbledore's plan at all. There were various alternatives that Dumbledore or his portrait could have utilized to ensure Harry got the sword and found out that he had to die. His portrait could visit other portraits within Hogwarts so it would be a simple matter for him to go to a portrait in McGonagall's office and explain the situation to her if need be. Since McGonagall was also a member of the Order, she could pass messages to them. He could also utilize Phineas Nigellis for that purpose if Harry went to Grimmauld Place - which was likely and did occur. Likewise, Dumbledore's portrait would have known that Hermione had taken Phineas Nigellis' portrait out of Grimmauld Place so that was a constant means of communication if he felt it necessary. Phineas could have delivered messages from Dumbledore's portrait to Harry at any time - like he did for Dumbledore in OOTP. Dumbledore's portrait could also utilize the house-elves - again, he could visit any portrait in the castle so he could search for one or even just wait until one showed up to clean the Headmaster's office. He could send any house-elf to Harry - or even ask for Dobby or Kreacher specifically. Snape being killed wouldn't really change anything beyond Harry getting the sword and finding out that he had to die a different way. Telling anyone about the Elder wand and that Draco had become its master on the tower that night would only serve to put Draco in danger - which is precisely what Dumbledore was trying to avoid by asking Snape to kill him in the first place. He only told Snape that he was concerned about Draco's soul, but the primary reason that he did not want Draco to kill him was that he was certain Voldemort would eventually go after the Elder wand and that would put Draco in danger, IMO. Dumbledore felt that Draco was still young enough to change - to choose a different path - and wanted him to have that chance. Dumbledore never told Snape about the Horcruxes or the Elder wand because he did not want him to know about those things. Snape knowing presented the risk of Voldemort finding out - as Dumbledore explained when he and Snape argued in HBP. He didn't really want Harry to know about it either, but he realized that Harry might need to know about the Deathly Hallows so he left the fairy tales to Hermione as a cryptic clue - but he also hoped Hermione would be able to slow Harry up in finding out about them. Dumbledore felt that the Elder wand was too dangerous in that it presented a terrible temptation. He was concerned that Harry would fall victim to that temptation - which he admitted and apologized for in Kings Cross. I think he had that same concern regarding Snape - as well as the added risk of Voldemort discovering the truth. There really wasn't anything Snape could have done to fix the situation and telling him would have likely only made things worse. If Snape attacked Draco to master the wand, he would have to come up with an explanation for why he did so. Either way, Snape would still be killed by Voldemort because Voldemort believed it was necessary to kill in order to master the Elder wand and Snape was the one who killed Dumbledore. Having the Elder wand wouldn't prevent that - many of its previous masters had been killed. It was only legend that the wand was unbeatable - the reality was that, while it was a very powerful wand, its master could still be defeated and Snape was no match for Voldemort even with the Elder wand, IMO. As such, I can't see Dumbledore's portrait telling Snape anything about the Elder wand because that would have been a pointless endeavor that only served to put Draco in danger and Snape would still have been killed regardless, IMO. And that would make Voldemort the master of the Elder wand - which is exactly what Dumbledore wanted to prevent. That only means that nobody could ever master the wand again. It could still be used, but it would not provide any extra power. Voldemort could use the Elder wand even though he was not the true master of it, but it did not work any better or provide any more power than his yew wand did - he said there was no difference. The "power" of the Elder wand - and what made it such a temptation - was that its true master would be able to do more powerful magic with it. It would do things that other wands could not - i.e. Harry being able to repair his broken phoenix wand with the Elder wand where Hermione's wand had failed and even Ollivander said he could not do it. If its true master dies undefeated, that power dies with them because only the true master could get that kind of power from the Elder wand. In that event, the Elder wand would be no different than any other wand. That is still specific to Harry - as I said above. The common factor in all of that is the fact that Harry was the true master of the Elder wand. It would not work properly against him. It worked fine against other people - and Voldemort himself. The killing curse rebounded because Harry was the true master of the Elder wand and he fought back. From what we're shown, the killing curse itself was no different - it killed Voldemort when it hit him. The only person it would not have killed was Harry, IMO. Only if Snape actually defeated Dumbledore. The wand chooses the wizard. Dumbledore couldn't make that decision - it was up to the Elder wand. And Dumbledore ensured that there would be no defeat by asking Snape to kill him. You cannot defeat someone when they're letting you win. The Elder wand would rather belong to a dead master who died undefeated than someone who could only win because they were given permission from what we're shown. Dumbledore confirms that Voldemort has the Elder wand - he does not elaborate beyond that. Harry was still putting the pieces together and working it all out, IMO. That was always Dumbledore's style - he used cryptic clues and asked questions that would lead Harry to figure things out on his own. That's what made him such an excellent teacher, IMO. However, that could also be an annoying trait - particularly when Harry needed answers. The Elder wand would still know that Antioch was not letting himself be killed - that he did not want to die. Antioch had spent his time bragging about having an unbeatable wand and challenging people to duels to prove it. He wanted to win and keep that wand for himself. Being drunk only rendered him incapable of fighting back - it did not change what he wanted. Antioch did not willingly sacrifice himself - he was murdered in cold blood. That was a true defeat. There doesn't need to be any mention of the Elder wand. There was no mention of the Elder wand at Malfoy Manor either - it wasn't even there when Harry defeated Draco. Gregorovitch rushed into that room to stop Grindelwald, but Grindelwald defeated Gregorovitch by stunning him. That made Grindelwald master of the Elder wand because he conquered Gregorovitch. That is the significant factor. The only way to master the Elder wand is to defeat - to conquer - its current master. That's how the Elder wand chooses its master - whoever conquers its current master is deemed more powerful and it will switch its allegiance. Regular wands may choose not to switch allegiance depending on the circumstances and the intent of the wizards involved. All wands are quasi-sentient so they know what's going on - whether it's a real duel or just practice or competition for fun. They know what their master wants. The only difference with the Elder wand is that it will always change allegiance to anyone who conquers its current master because that is how it decides who is more powerful. Dumbledore's intent is only significant in that he was willingly sacrificing himself. The primary reason for that was the curse that was slowly killing him - the curse that was set by Voldemort. Dumbledore could not allow the curse to kill him because that would mean that Voldemort had defeated him and Voldemort would then become the master of the Elder wand. Dumbledore could not allow that to happen so he planned his own death to prevent it and hoped to break the power of the Elder wand by dying undefeated. It was not possible for Dumbledore to arrange for anyone else to become master of the Elder wand because that would involve giving them permission - which would mean that they did not actually defeat him. The only way to master the Elder wand is to conquer its current master. You cannot conquer someone who is letting you win. Dumbledore planned his own death and gave Snape permission to do it so that was not a defeat. Had Draco not managed to disarm Dumbledore first, Dumbledore would have died undefeated because that was suicide - not murder. Originally Posted by willfitz I definitely agree with this interpretation, HedwigOwl. The curse didn't function properly on Harry, but it did function properly on Voldemort, so the wand was clearly able to produce a functional curse.

[mysterious]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Which is why most likely Harry won't be it's Master for long either. First time some guy punches him in the face and knocks him over (or anything that can be considered a "defeat") the Elder Wand will no longer consider Harry it's Master either

Actually no. The term defeated is the key to understanding the working of the Elder wand. In my opinion defeat in duel or in the process of dueling is what makes the Elder wand change its allegiance. If a guy punches Harry, doesn't mean he defeated Harry. Harry has to make the choice, if he wants to fight back. He can punch the guy, or blow him to smithereens. It is his call. If he accepts defeat, then the Elder wand will definitely change sides. But from what I have seen of Harry in all the books, he does not like to give up so easy even when faced by spiders, basilisk etc. etc. so I don't see him accepting defeat to a punch.

In case of Malfoy, (if someone can provide the quote) he gave up and didn't fight back!!! He accepted his defeat and which is what made the wand change its allegiance.

Originally Posted by WelkinCooper

since Aberforth punched out his brother Albus pretty good at their sister's funeral.

There is matter of timeline, plus Aberforth wasn't categorically dueling with Albus.

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

If the Elder Wand was really that powerful, how was Dumblefore able to defeat Grindelwald? Was Grindelwald simply that weak without the wand that even with it he lost to DD? If so, how did he become such an infamous Dark Lord BEFORE the Elder Wand?

Originally Posted by GrimeldaDursley

Oh, no doubt, because Grindelwald was a brilliant wizard, but Dumbledore was more brilliant. Also, maybe having the Elder Wand made Grindelwald just a tad too overconfident, opening the way for him to make critical mistakes?

There is no doubt that Grindelwald was powerful and with Elder wand, even more so. But this only proves that Dumbledore was much more strong and wise. Elder wand is only called the unbeatable wand because no one had defeated the owner without trickery or chance. Dumbledore was the only person in the history of Elder wand to have defeated the owner in a duel without trickery. This does not make Grindelwald weak but Dumbledore strong. Also one can speculate about their relationship coming into play, but I will not discuss that.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by mysterious

Actually no. The term defeated is the key to understanding the working of the Elder wand. In my opinion defeat in duel or in the process of dueling is what makes the Elder wand change its allegiance. If a guy punches Harry, doesn't mean he defeated Harry. Harry has to make the choice, if he wants to fight back.

Actually, dueling and making a choice to fight do not appear to be required at all. The first known shift in the Elder Wand's allegiance occurred when Antioch Peverell had his throat slit while he slept. There was no duel, not even a fight. Peverell made no choice. He was simply murdered in his sleep.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

Actually, dueling and making a choice to fight do not appear to be required at all. The first known shift in the Elder Wand's allegiance occurred when Antioch Peverell had his throat slit while he slept. There was no duel, not even a fight. Peverell made no choice. He was simply murdered in his sleep.

Good point. I thought that the Elder Wand changes allegiance when it recognizes the stronger of the two opponents. Although we don't really know how the wand first changed allegiance -- the tale of the Deathly Hallows is after all a story, not fact, although such an incident was likely to have happened over the years and was used in the tale. So if you kill the sleeping current owner of the wand, it would perceive the murderer as "stronger" than the victim.

Another point is that in the forest, Harry chose not to fight and yet maintained his ownership of the Elder Wand. Coming back to life after being attacked undefended may have had something to do with that -- the Elder Wand perceived Harry as the stronger because his enemy could not defeat him even when there was no defense or counterattack.

[twinsrule26]

I thought that Grindelwald stole the wand from its rightful owner? .
Maybe that is why Dumbledore was able to defeat him. Although if the wands rightful owner died between Grindelwald's theft of it ,and the duel with Dumbledore, the wand might have accepted Grindelwald as its owner before that epic duel.

[ShadowSonic]

The Elder Wand seems to be incredibly fickle as far as wands go. It'll switch allegiance even if it's owner loses to someone when not using the Elder Wand (Draco).

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

Actually, dueling and making a choice to fight do not appear to be required at all. The first known shift in the Elder Wand's allegiance occurred when Antioch Peverell had his throat slit while he slept. There was no duel, not even a fight. Peverell made no choice. He was simply murdered in his sleep.

Yeah, my understanding has always been that it's down to the intent of both people involved. It's only going to switch allegiance if the previous master is truly defeated; that is, something is done intentionally against their will. Hence why Dumbledore was not really defeated by Snape.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Yeah, my understanding has always been that it's down to the intent of both people involved. It's only going to switch allegiance if the previous master is truly defeated; that is, something is done intentionally against their will. Hence why Dumbledore was not really defeated by Snape.

The Elder Wand had already switched allegiance to Draco before Snape cast the AK.

But yes, in principle you are correct. If Dumbledore had still been owner of the Wand, he would hypothetically have remained owner when Snape cast the AK. I say hypothetically only because the theory was not tested, but I do believe it to be true. I do not think the Wand would have changed allegiance to Snape because Snape's action had been planned between the two of them.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

The Elder Wand had already switched allegiance to Draco before Snape cast the AK.

But yes, in principle you are correct. If Dumbledore had still been owner of the Wand, he would hypothetically have remained owner when Snape cast the AK. I say hypothetically only because the theory was not tested, but I do believe it to be true. I do not think the Wand would have changed allegiance to Snape because Snape's action had been planned between the two of them.

I agree with that, particularly because it had been agreed by both Dumbledore and Snape (even though it's speculative).

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

The Elder Wand had already switched allegiance to Draco before Snape cast the AK.

But yes, in principle you are correct. If Dumbledore had still been owner of the Wand, he would hypothetically have remained owner when Snape cast the AK. I say hypothetically only because the theory was not tested, but I do believe it to be true. I do not think the Wand would have changed allegiance to Snape because Snape's action had been planned between the two of them.

Yeah, I was referring to Harry's quote in the Flaw in the Plan, where he explains that Snape never defeated Dumbledore, not the fact that the the wand wasn't Snape's, which as you say, it wouldn't have been either way.

[Reid]

would the wand change alliegance if say, harry was disarmed in a friendly duel?

[HRW]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

The Elder Wand had already switched allegiance to Draco before Snape cast the AK.

But yes, in principle you are correct. If Dumbledore had still been owner of the Wand, he would hypothetically have remained owner when Snape cast the AK. I say hypothetically only because the theory was not tested, but I do believe it to be true. I do not think the Wand would have changed allegiance to Snape because Snape's action had been planned between the two of them.

The bit in bold seems strange to me.

Would that not mean that say - IF I were to sneak behind Harry and disarm him then I would become the master of the elder wand? Seems a bit too easy for me..

The timeline IMO would have been something likes this

1. After Draco disarms Dumbledore, Dumbledore still remains the master of the elder wand because IMO the wand perceives Dumbledore to be more powerful.

2. Snape killing Dumbledore was planned and hence, the wand did not pass down to Snape and instead went to Draco who was the last wizard to disarm Dumbledore.

3. When Harry later wrestles Draco's wand from him, the elder wand recognised Harry as the more powerful wizard and changes it's allegiance.


As Shadowsonic said, I think the Elder wand is fickle and recognises power above anything else. I realise my theory includes LOTS of assumptions but for the most part I find it fairly logical.

[ShadowSonic]

But Grindelwald became Master of the Wand simply by sneaking into the last owner's house and stealing it. No battling required.

[OldMotherCrow]

After picking up the wand, Grindelwald waited around for the owner so he could defeat him before leaving. I think that was an indication that simply picking up the wand was not enough to cause it to switch; the old owner actually had to be bested by the new owner.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by HRW

The bit in bold seems strange to me.

Would that not mean that say - IF I were to sneak behind Harry and disarm him then I would become the master of the elder wand? Seems a bit too easy for me..

That is exactly what the books indicate would happen. Yes, it is rather easy to win, assuming the person who masters it isn't a terribly powerful wizard. This would be why they say "wand of elder, never prosper." Part of the theme behind the Deathly Hallows was how things like the Elder Wand and the Resurrection Stone don't' help you avoid or circumvent death, but in fact bring it closer to you. The Elder Wand is tempting, because of the power it affords its master, but on the other side, it makes them a target, and is the most difficult wand to hold on to.

The wand does only care about strength and power, yes, but it never employs any sort of subjective measure to evaluate it. I suppose that in the interests of being as objective as possible, the only way it can decide which witch or wizard is stronger is by which can defeat the other one-on-one. There is no element of discretionary choice. The wand couldn't ignore the fact that Draco disarmed Dumbledore because it indicated, at that time, that Draco was a more able wizard than Dumbledore, regardless of all other evidence.

1. After Draco disarms Dumbledore, Dumbledore still remains the master of the elder wand because IMO the wand perceives Dumbledore to be more powerful.

2. Snape killing Dumbledore was planned and hence, the wand did not pass down to Snape and instead went to Draco who was the last wizard to disarm Dumbledore.

3. When Harry later wrestles Draco's wand from him, the elder wand recognised Harry as the more powerful wizard and changes it's allegiance.

As Shadowsonic said, I think the Elder wand is fickle and recognises power above anything else. I realise my theory includes LOTS of assumptions but for the most part I find it fairly logical.

Not only is it unsupported, but it's actually in contradiction with the book:

the Flaw in the Plan The wand chooses the wizard... The Elder Wand recognized a new master before Dumbledore died, someone who never even laid a hand on it. The new master removed the wand from Dumbledore against his will, never realizing exactly what he had done, or that the world's most dangerous wand had given him its allegiance...

Originally Posted by Reid

would the wand change alliegance if say, harry was disarmed in a friendly duel?

That would depend on how friendly the duel was, I would say. If Harry was duelling another Auror in some sort of training exercise, and Harry was legitimately trying to beat the other person, and failed, then yes, I would have to think that the wand's ownership would change. If, however, he had no intention of winning, I can't think it would. If he was allowing the other person to try some spell out on him, for example, it would not be defeat.

[HRW]

That makes it confusing. For example in the DA, the twins kept on disarming Zacharias Smith against his will so does that mean that the wand no longer held allegiance to Smith or does the explanation only apply to the Elder Wand?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by HRW

That makes it confusing. For example in the DA, the twins kept on disarming Zacharias Smith against his will so does that mean that the wand no longer held allegiance to Smith or does the explanation only apply to the Elder Wand?

Only to the Elder Wand. The criteria for changing allegiance are different for every wand, and so the Elder Wand's particular method is unique.

[ShadowSonic]

So if some random guy went up to Harry and punched him out cold, would that make this guy the new Master of the Elder Wand?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

So if some random guy went up to Harry and punched him out cold, would that make this guy the new Master of the Elder Wand?

Good question. Here is, I think, the most applicable quote from JKR for these types of questions:

PotterCast Interviews J.K. Rowling, part two I have been asked a lot of times, well what about Dueling Club and so on? Well I think it's clear there that in practice, where there's no real weight attached to the transference of a wand, where it's almost all for fun or purely for competition, there's no enormous significance attached in either wizard's mind to a wand flying out of someone's hand. But there are situations in which the emotional state of wizards where a lot hangs on a duel, that's something different. That's about real power and that's about transference that will have far-reaching effects in some cases. So I think the wand would behave differently then.

Perhaps, in the example you've forgiven, there would be some dependence on circumstance, too. I mean, did he just punch and run away, or did he punch him and take his wallet? Did Harry cower and accept defeat, or did he take out his wand and transfigure his attacker into a newt? Did the attacker actually accomplish anything by punching him in the face? I think that more information would be required.

While I'm reposting quotes, here's the other equally illuminating tidbit from JKR:

PotterCast Interview Essentially, I see wands as being quasi-sentient, you know? I think they awaken to a kind of-- They're not exactly animate but they're close to it. As close to it as you can get in an object because they carry so much magic. So that's really the key point about a wand. Now, the reactions will vary from wand to wand. The Elder Wand is simply the most dispassionate and ruthless of wands in that it will only take into consideration strength. So one would expect a certain amount of loyalty from one's wand. So even if you were disarmed while carrying it, even if you lost a fight while carrying it, it has developed an affinity with you that it will not give up easily. If, however, a wand is won, properly won in an adult duel, then a wand may switch allegiance, and it will certainly work better even if it hasn't fully switched allegiance for the person who won it. So that of course is what happens when Harry takes Draco's wand from him, and that's what happens when-- But you know what I mean. Oh, yeah, Ron. The blackthorn wand from the snatcher. So that would be sort of rough and ready, common, or garden, a wand favoring the person who had the skill to take it. It would favor them. However, the Elder Wand knows no loyalty except to strength. So it's completely unsentimental. It will only go where the power is. So if you win, then you've won the wand. So you don't need to kill with it. But, as is pointed out in the books, not least by Dumbledore because it is a wand of such immense power, almost inevitably, it attracts wizards who are prepared to kill and who will kill. And also it attracts wizards like Voldemort who confuse being prepared to murder with strength.

[ShadowSonic]

If that's the case, then most likely Harry is no longer the Master of the Elder Wand by the Epilogue. The idea that in the 17 years NO ONE ever tried to come after him for it, or that he never ever lost a fight in 17 years of being an Auror, is a bit too much to swallow.

Most likely Harry has lost fights in the interim, is no longer the Master, but because he never uses the Wand and it's sealed away somewhere, no one knows who the real Master of it is anymore.