Molly Weasley: Character Analysis

[lucky charms]

I assume Molly was an at least somewhat skilled witch and competent duelist, not because of her involvement in the Order in and of itself (Mrs. Figg, Hagrid, and to some degree Sirius weren't able to fight but were still made useful), and not because she stayed home with the kids during the first war (She's a housewife! She's always doing that ), but because she was entrusted with the dangerous task of standing sentry at the DoM (which surprised me and caused me to reevaluate her when I read it), and because of the mention that she came from one of the most powerful wizarding families and her brothers were especially powerful duelists. To me it seems that these observations were not incidental on Jo's part, but intended to foreshadow Molly's victory and to set it up to be more believable.

Of course, in real life family members don't always share the same traits and abilities, but in fiction when the observation is made that a family is _______, without any comment that a certain member in the family is an exception, we can probably safely assume that this was a literary device to teach us something indirectly about that character. This is the same reason I'm sure most readers were able to infer that Neville and Ron would grow up to be as great as the rest of their family, even though this isn't an assumption we'd be able to make about someone in real life.

However, I don't assume that Molly was quite as skilled as an Auror or her famed brothers or, for that matter, Bellatrix. If that were the case, I think her level of skill would have been noted directly as it was for the above characters; she would have been well-known for it. Also, her being Bella's equal would also undermine the role of maternal love in her victory, as others have noted. So the way I see it, the most credible scenario is that she was a fairly good duelist who knew what she was doing, but who needed that extra push to Super Saiyan level so she could beat someone more powerful than she was.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

This is the assumption I have the most problems with and you know what happens when we assume...). Assuming the wife is left home while the husband goes to work during a dangerous time does not mean the wife is fully capable of fending off an attack on her home.

Of course not. I wish this were the case but judging by how many civilian women are sexually assaulted and killed in Muggle wars I would say it's not the case that when there's a war going on everyone develops skills that would allow them to protect themselves. Molly had young children at the time, she wouldn't have the time or the possibility to train her duelling skills.

As for Molly being given dangerous assignments for the Order, standing guard at the DoM seems to have entailed sitting outside the door under and invisibility cloak which means if anyone was coming she could have simply stunned them and then sent a message for backup so exceptional or even really good dueling skills were not necessary IMO. The guard duty job felt more like a sentry - someone placed there to look out for intruders and to summon backup if necessary. To me, Molly being placed in this position means that whoever put her there had enough confidence in her that she could notify the Order if the DoM was in fact under siege not that she could single handedly keep a band of Death Eaters at bay in a narrow corridor long enough to defeat them all.

This is true, IMO, and it doesn't just apply to Molly. Even if Kingsley was sitting guard Dumbledore would be a fool to expect him to take on several Death Eaters or, worse, Voldemort himself on his own and succeed. I think they believed they would not be subjected to any major attacks during their time there or they would have taken at least a few other Order members with them.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I think that's quite an assumption, and find no evidence in the books to suggest that Molly would be expected to merely "call for help". Anyone assigned would be the main line of defense, and I doubt the DE's or imperiused intruders would take a time-out so that Molly -- or anyone else -- could "notify the Order". The whole point of a sentry, I believe, is to be the first line of defense, meant to stop/thwart intrusion or attack....which implies the "sentry" has to be able to defend and attack immediately until backup arrives.

Yes, they were probably deemed capable of stopping some poor confused fellow under the Imperius curse from taking the Prophecy. But I don't believe Dumbledore expected one single Order member (regardless of who it was) to take on several Death Eaters (since Voldemort never sends just one DE) and not only get out of there alive but also win the fight. That doesn't seem realistic to me. Furthermore, during the seven Potters, when the Order does expect a fight why isn't Molly there then? Surely Molly would be a better help than Mundungus Fletcher...

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Where do you find evidence in the books that Molly was not a competent, skilled witch, given that she had proper training and came from a well-known talented magical family, and Dumbledore himself asked Molly to join the Order? I find nothing on page that even hints that to be the case. In my opinion, categorizing Molly's skills as "sudden" is subjective, not based on anything the author has written.

I don't think anyone is saying that she wasn't skilled at all, merely that there is no evidence to suggest that she is extremely skilled. The fact that she was an Order member doesn't say much to me because Dumbledore never struck me as the kind of person who only esteemed very powerful wizards. It's possible that he valued the Weasley's loyalty to him and Harry and therefore knew he could trust them. Just like he trusted Hagrid who wasn't exactly the second coming of Merlin either. Even Voldemort had less skilled Death Eaters in his service and he does seem the kind of person to look down on unskilled wizards. The question here as I see it is not: can Molly duel? but, is there any evidence to suggest that she is more capable than others?

The information provided by the author gives inference of that in the series, and and acknowledgement of Molly's skill by Dumbledore and others is shown on page once the second war begins at the end of GOF.

I don't remember anyone ever acknowledging Molly's skill to be honest. I remember people remarking on McGonagall's skill, Hermione's and even Ginny's but never Molly's. I could be wrong though, but in the example you gave about Dumbledore, not once does he say or indicate that he wants Molly to join the Order because she is so skilled and powerful. I'm sure he believed that she was skilled and powerful to a certain extent but there is no indication that he believed her skills to be out of the ordinary, the way I remember it.

Originally Posted by lucky charms

However, I don't assume that Molly was quite as skilled as an Auror or her famed brothers or, for that matter, Bellatrix. If that were the case, I think her level of skill would have been noted directly as it was for the above characters; she would have been well-known for it. Also, her being Bella's equal would also undermine the role of maternal love in her victory, as others have noted.

Yes, this is my belief as well.

EDIT: I also don't remember anyone saying anything about the skill of the Prewetts, aside from Moody. Does anyone have a quote of that one?

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Where do you find evidence in the books that Molly was not a competent, skilled witch, given that she had proper training

Where is it stated she had more training than any other Witch or Wizard who ever went to Hogwarts? Was she a trained Auror too?

and came from a well-known talented magical family,

Being from a well-known family doesn't really mean anything. I mean, the Longbottoms were tough Aurors but Neville was substandard for quite some time.

and Dumbledore himself asked Molly to join the Order?

He asked Peter Pettigrew to join the first Order as well, despite him now showing much skill in public (yes, he turned out to be tougher than expected but hardly anyone including his friends knew that).

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Where is it stated she had more training than any other Witch or Wizard who ever went to Hogwarts? Was she a trained Auror too?

Being from a well-known family doesn't really mean anything. I mean, the Longbottoms were tough Aurors but Neville was substandard for quite some time.

He asked Peter Pettigrew to join the first Order as well, despite him now showing much skill in public (yes, he turned out to be tougher than expected but hardly anyone including his friends knew that).

I think that the thing to remember is that we don't need to have it explicitly proven to us beforehand that Molly could defeat Bellatrix in a duel. All we need is for her to be developed prior to that point such that her defeat of Bellatrix makes sense in terms of her character.

I agree that being from a well-known family shouldn't mean anything (though its specific mention in a book perhaps is different), but being asked to perform dangerous and important missions for the Order is quite enough to support her ability to take care of herself, in my opinion.

[SnapesBane]

Does anyone know what dangerous acts Molly did for the Order? I cant think of any. Guarding is not synonymous with dangerous, in my opinion. Mr. Weasleys injuries were a fluke and he was likly only attacked because the cloak fell off.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I find nothing in the books to support your comments about what Molly "could have been". As Meesha noted in her post, JKR gives us enough information indicating that Molly is, indeed, a skilled and competent witch. The information provided by the author gives inference of that in the series, and and acknowledgement of Molly's skill by Dumbledore and others is shown on page once the second war begins at the end of GOF.

I agree. I'm at my parents' house at the moment so I don't have my books with me, but from memory, Harry was told when he arrived at Grimmauld Place that the Order members had been taking turns in shifts all summer to stand guard over him - and Mundungus had previously told Harry that his shift was supposed to have ended at midnight with another Order member taking over then, but he left his post early to get stolen cauldrons. Mrs. Figg couldn't protect Harry because she was a squib - though she was pretty handy swinging that purse. Still, her job had always been to report to Dumbledore - primarily regarding Harry's situation with the Dursleys. That's why she was so mad at Mundungus for leaving - she couldn't do any magic at all and there was supposed to be someone from the Order there at all times to protect Harry in the event that he was attacked. That included Molly.

We can infer a lot about Molly's skill from information like this and such things are included in a story for that purpose because it is not possible to show everything - particularly with secondary characters.

Again, I find nothing in the books to support the view that Molly didn't have a good relationship with her brothers. In fact, I do find that Molly's giving Fabian's watch to Harry as an indication of her fondness for her brother, as she loved Harry like a son and would be unlikely to give him a "coming of age" gift that belonged to someone she did not like.

Exactly. The watch was symbolic of Harry being part of the family and it meant a great deal to Harry because of that. Molly passing that watch on to Harry in such an emotional moment also demonstrated her close relationship with Fabian - and I believe he was the one Moody said it took five Death Eaters to bring down. There is an underlying comparison to the twins and Ginny in that - they strike me as being a lot like Gideon, Fabian, and Molly. I think that was why Molly was always so frustrated with the twins. She saw so much potential in them because they were like her brothers and she was afraid they were wasting it on the idea of a joke shop - but once she realized they knew what they were about and made a success of it, she was quite proud of them.

The evidence in the books is pretty clear. Bella initially mocks Molly, but quickly becomes serious when she realizes Molly is not an easy opponent, and I think we can all agree that Bellatrix would be a good judge of skill. I think it's a very safe assumption that dueling/fighting skills of the level Molly shows in her duel with Bella are considerable, and likely to have long been part of her arsenal.

I agree. I think Bellatrix's reaction when she realizes that Molly is a powerful opponent who will genuinely challenge her speaks for itself. However, I also think that's why the evidence presented about Molly being home alone so much during the first war is significant. That was a time when people were regularly being attacked in their homes - as both Sirius and Arthur tell the trio. The Weasleys were not only considered blood traitors, there was also a great deal of enmity between Arthur and Lucius Malfoy. Knowing that, I think it is extremely likely that Molly had to fend off attacks in their home while Arthur was working overtime.

I think that's quite an assumption, and find no evidence in the books to suggest that Molly would be expected to merely "call for help". Anyone assigned would be the main line of defense, and I doubt the DE's or imperiused intruders would take a time-out so that Molly -- or anyone else -- could "notify the Order". The whole point of a sentry, I believe, is to be the first line of defense, meant to stop/thwart intrusion or attack....which implies the "sentry" has to be able to defend and attack immediately until backup arrives.

Absolutely. Furthermore, whoever was standing guard would not be able to call for any immediate help - as we see when Arthur was attacked. There were no portraits down on that level at the Ministry. They were completely alone and isolated. At best, they might be able to send out a patronus, but that would go out to Order members who were not at the Ministry so they would still have to be able to defend and attack until backup arrived. When Molly took her turn standing guard at the Ministry, she had to be able to duel in the event that Death Eaters or Imperiused intruders attempted to break through.

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Where is it stated she had more training than any other Witch or Wizard who ever went to Hogwarts? Was she a trained Auror too?

That would be the point actually. Molly had the same type and amount of training as the other Order members. Aurors could be viewed as an exception because there are three years of additional training - though that appears to primarily focus on things like stealth and concealment or law enforcement rather than dueling. However, there are only three Aurors in the Order - one of which was retired. The rest of the Order consisted of everyday people like Molly who learned how to duel at Hogwarts and applied what they learned defending themselves and others during both wars. The Order was not an army of military trained soldiers or Ministry trained wizards from the department of Magical Law Enforcement. They were parents, teachers, office workers, and even unemployed - just regular, everyday people who knew how to fight and were trying to make a difference by taking a stand.

Being from a well-known family doesn't really mean anything. I mean, the Longbottoms were tough Aurors but Neville was substandard for quite some time.

Again, that would be the point. Neville was never substandard - what he lacked was confidence in himself. He always had the power - he inherited that through his family. As Jo said, Neville could have accomplished the same things that Harry did - he was "the boy who could have been". Once he gained confidence in himself, he demonstrated that he was just as powerful as his parents and his grandmother.

Sirius was the "black sheep" of his family because he did not share their beliefs in pure-blood supremacy, but he was still as powerful as the other members of his family. Like Neville, Ron lacked confidence in himself and was afraid to try, but he eventually gained that confidence and demonstrated that he was as powerful as the rest of the Weasleys. Percy also stood out as being different, but that was in terms of ambition - he also showed himself to be as powerful as the rest of his family. A family in general being presented as powerful is significant in regards to inherited ability, IMO.

He asked Peter Pettigrew to join the first Order as well, despite him now showing much skill in public (yes, he turned out to be tougher than expected but hardly anyone including his friends knew that).

Actually, we don't know if Dumbledore personally asked Pettigrew to join the Order. We are not shown the circumstances of that and Dumbledore did not personally ask every member of the Order to join. Some were recruited by other members or volunteered. We don't know if any of the Marauders were personally asked to join by Dumbledore. Given Pettigrew's attempts to downplay his abilities and make everyone perceive him as weaker than he actually was, it seems more likely that he was simply included along with the other Marauders because they were friends.

That wasn't the case with Molly. It was shown on page that Dumbledore personally asked her to join.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by SnapesBane

Does anyone know what dangerous acts Molly did for the Order? I cant think of any. Guarding is not synonymous with dangerous, in my opinion. Mr. Weasleys injuries were a fluke and he was likly only attacked because the cloak fell off.

She was guarding the Department of Mysteries from Death Eaters. If she couldn't handle herself in combat, she would have been a liability.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Where is it stated she had more training than any other Witch or Wizard who ever went to Hogwarts? Was she a trained Auror too?

Being from a well-known family doesn't really mean anything. I mean, the Longbottoms were tough Aurors but Neville was substandard for quite some time.

As Meesha notes, why wouldn't training at Hogwarts, and diligent practice on your own, be enough to gain competence in fighting or dueling? Most of those fighting weren't aurors, but regular wizards & witches. The hero in the book is only 17, had standard training at Hogwarts (only 6 years, really 5 with Umbridge's non-class), plus practice in a club formed to hone skills in 5th year. And he took down Voldemort in the end.

As far as families, a strong magical blood line doesn't hurt. As Molly's line, and the fighting abilities of her brothers, are specifically brought up in the books, I believe the author wanted us to know that Molly came from a powerful wizarding family, and is telling us that there is much more to Molly than what Harry sees as a young boy. lucky charms made a good point on this. As far as Neville, I don't think he was ever substandard; I agree with Meesha that Neville's problem was self-image, having grown up with a very demanding grandmother who constantly talked of how skilled his parents were. Neville had a complex, put too much pressure on himself, just like Ron did. But both came through brilliantly, and their performance issues had nothing to do with lack of ability.

[MasterOfDeath]

This brings up another point. Where do wizards learn to duel? Are dueling clubs popular? Do they only learn from DADA classes? Did Voldemort train all his death eaters like a military? Did Dumbledore train all his Order members to fight and duel? Or do they just practice on their own?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

This brings up another point. Where do wizards learn to duel? Are dueling clubs popular? Do they only learn from DADA classes? Did Voldemort train all his death eaters like a military? Did Dumbledore train all his Order members to fight and duel? Or do they just practice on their own?

I think it's just like real life. If you have a knife, you can attack people with it. The difference is, everyone in the WW has a very powerful weapon on them at all times.

Incidentally, it isn't like Bellatrix went through Auror training, either. Duelling seems to be just like fighting in the real world. Sure, the police get special training in hand-to-hand combat and combat with weapons (Aurors), and some people do it for sport (Flitwick was a duelling champion), but everyone can fight, and would if pressed into it, to varying degrees.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

We can infer a lot about Molly's skill from information like this and such things are included in a story for that purpose because it is not possible to show everything - particularly with secondary characters.

Minerva and Bellatrix are secondary characters and their skill is both shown and commented on several times.

Absolutely. Furthermore, whoever was standing guard would not be able to call for any immediate help - as we see when Arthur was attacked. There were no portraits down on that level at the Ministry. They were completely alone and isolated. At best, they might be able to send out a patronus, but that would go out to Order members who were not at the Ministry so they would still have to be able to defend and attack until backup arrived. When Molly took her turn standing guard at the Ministry, she had to be able to duel in the event that Death Eaters or Imperiused intruders attempted to break through.

Stunning someone while under an Invisibility cloak would not be that hard I imagine. As for more dangerous situations, it's like I said, I doubt any Order member was expected to be able to handle several DEs or Voldemort himself on his or her own.

That wasn't the case with Molly. It was shown on page that Dumbledore personally asked her to join.

But there is nothing that indicates this was because of her skill. I still don't see where that interpretation comes from. Dumbledore says nothing of her skill, or of Arthur's and I like I already said there could have been other reasons for her being asked to join.

Originally Posted by willfitz

She was guarding the Department of Mysteries from Death Eaters. If she couldn't handle herself in combat, she would have been a liability.

Mundungus was very much a liability and he was not only in the Order but asked to participate in a very dangerous mission. Sorry, but I still don't see any evidence for the Order being made up of elite wizards which is what most arguments here seemed to be based on. Most arguments presented in favor of Molly's skill and battle experience have been rather speculative, IMO, and already fitted what people believed of her character. I don't see Moly as being interested in battling so to me it doesn't seem in character for her to practice dueling skills while Arthur isn't home. I don't see anything in canon which indicates this either. Dumbledore asking her to join I have already dealt with.

[SnapesBane]

Originally Posted by Sereena

Mundungus was very much a liability and he was not only in the Order but asked to participate in a very dangerous mission. Sorry, but I still don't see any evidence for the Order being made up of elite wizards which is what most arguments here seemed to be based on. Most arguments presented in favor of Molly's skill and battle experience have been rather speculative, IMO, and already fitted what people believed of her character. I don't see Moly as being interested in battling so to me it doesn't seem in character for her to practice dueling skills while Arthur isn't home. I don't see anything in canon which indicates this either. Dumbledore asking her to join I have already dealt with.

Arthur also dozed off on the job. What does that tell us about Order selection?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by SnapesBane

Arthur also dozed off on the job. What does that tell us about Order selection?

It tells me he was tired. It doesn't tell me much about his duelling ability.If I get it correctly, your point is that because Dumbledore put someone on guard duty who was capable of falling asleep on the job, he therefore wasn't being selective regarding their ability to defend themselves? I'm finding that to be a bit of a non-sequitur. We already know that Arthur was able to defend himself and fight in the Battle of Hogwarts. My point, I guess, is that just because once I might doze off in a lecture, it doesn't make me a bad student.

Originally Posted by Sereena

Mundungus was very much a liability and he was not only in the Order but asked to participate in a very dangerous mission. Sorry, but I still don't see any evidence for the Order being made up of elite wizards which is what most arguments here seemed to be based on.

No need to apologize. In fact, I feel that Mundungus is a really good point of contrast for Molly. Yes, Mundungus is in many ways a severe liability to the Order of the Phoenix. He is also an asset in terms of what he brings to the table. He is shown to be quite unreliable and uncomfortable in the face of any sort of danger, and it doesn't appear that he was used in the role of a skilled combatant. He was used as a spy in Grimmauld Place, but it's hardly in the same context as guarding the DoM from potential intruders.

So, to me, it shows that there are members of the Order who are trusted with those sorts of tasks, and those who aren't. Molly was the former.

Most arguments presented in favor of Molly's skill and battle experience have been rather speculative, IMO, and already fitted what people believed of her character.

I think if anything, this could be said of the opposite view. There is plenty in the books that fits Molly being a reliable soldier, if we choose to take it this way. If there is any bias, I feel that it really should be towards that, given the biggest piece of evidence we have is her duel of Bellatrix. The way I see it is that sure, we could assume that all of the points raised are meaningless, that they don't actually show Molly to be a reliable fighter, but given that by the end of the series we know she was a skilled fighter, why would we?

[SnapesBane]

Originally Posted by willfitz

It tells me he was tired. It doesn't tell me much about his duelling ability.If I get it correctly, your point is that because Dumbledore put someone on guard duty who was capable of falling asleep on the job, he therefore wasn't being selective regarding their ability to defend themselves? I'm finding that to be a bit of a non-sequitur. We already know that Arthur was able to defend himself and fight in the Battle of Hogwarts. My point, I guess, is that just because once I might doze off in a lecture, it doesn't make me a bad student.

I ran my post through MS Word to make it more legible. I hope that's fine.

My point is that Arthur "drowsing" on the job shows unreliability and that even though Dumbledore specifically chose people to be in the Order, it doesn't mean these people are fit for the job, IMO. If the Department of Mysteries is so important that it needs to be guarded from danger, then those who guard it need to be in top form. Falling asleep is not top form, I think. Apply this to the selection of Molly. Dumbledore's decision to allow her in the Order could also be seen as a poor decision, especially given that she has a family that would be devastated had she passed on, IMO.

Your student example doesn't fit because the lecture you're attending isn't made out to be a case of life and death for millions.

I think the entire DOM fiasco could have been avoided had Dumbledore told Harry about the Prophecy in OotP and they actually took it from the DOM and destroyed it.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by SnapesBane

My point is that Arthur "drowsing" on the job shows unreliability and that even though Dumbledore specifically chose people to be in the Order, it doesn't mean these people are fit for the job, IMO. If the Department of Mysteries is so important that it needs to be guarded from danger, then those who guard it need to be in top form. Falling asleep is not top form, I think. Apply this to the selection of Molly.

I think it's stretching it a bit to say that because Arthur dozed off that he's "unreliable", and therefore other people in the Order are as well and that we should apply that to Molly too. The fact is that Arthur was both having to keep up his day job at the Ministry and take turns with night guard duty. I don't agree that simple human physical limitations say anything about a person's reliability or skill as a dueler.

Originally Posted by Sereena

Mundungus was very much a liability and he was not only in the Order but asked to participate in a very dangerous mission. Sorry, but I still don't see any evidence for the Order being made up of elite wizards which is what most arguments here seemed to be based on. Most arguments presented in favor of Molly's skill and battle experience have been rather speculative, IMO, and already fitted what people believed of her character.

It's noted (by Sirius, I think) that Mundungus was in the Order for his ability to gather & pass on information among what could be described as the underbelly of the wizarding community, much like an informant does for the police. But that has nothing to do with Molly; it's not "speculative" that she fought in the battle at Hogwarts, and it's not "speculative" that she challenged Bellatrix and beat her. That actually happens, it's book canon, and it speaks directly to the fact that Molly is a skilled fighter and dueler.

Tonks is given credibility because she's described as having trained as an Auror; yet we don't see her fighting described at all, just that she was there fighting alongside Lupin. It's my personal opinion that much of the dismissal of Molly's skills/abilities to fight and duel are -- in spite of the fact we see on-page that she can perform very well -- because she is viewed as "only a mother" or "mostly maternal", and therefore can't possibly have those abilities.

[SnapesBane]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I think it's stretching it a bit to say that because Arthur dozed off that he's "unreliable", and therefore other people in the Order are as well and that we should apply that to Molly too. The fact is that Arthur was both having to keep up his day job at the Ministry and take turns with night guard duty. I don't agree that simple human physical limitations say anything about a person's reliability or skill as a dueler.

What does it tell you when someone who is already exhausted from work is also on guard duty? I think that shows a poor decision in who you allow to guard this place that is housing a weapon that can be used by Voldemort. He became unreliable because he overworked himself, in my opinion. I wonder if he protested about going on guard duty after work.

I looked over the bit in GoF where Molly is prompted by Dumbledore. It's in "The Parting of the Ways" chapter. There is no indication that she should even be on guard duty due to defensive skills. In fact, I interpret his comments, with OotP in mind, as continuing the mother theme in the story.

Goblet of Fire, Pg. 699-700, 711 “Molly,” he said, holding up a hand, “please listen to me for a moment. Harry has been through a terrible ordeal tonight. He has just had to relive it for me. What he needs now is sleep, and peace, and quiet. If he would like you all to stay with him,” he added, looking around at Ron, Hermione, and Bill too, “you may do so. But I do not want you questioning him until he is ready to answer, and certainly not this evening.” Mrs. Weasley nodded. She was very white. She rounded on Ron, Hermione, and Bill as though they were being noisy, and hissed, “Did you hear? He needs quiet!” [...] “There is work to be done,” he said. “Molly . . . am I right in thinking that I can count on you and Arthur?” “Of course you can,” said Mrs. Weasley. She was white to the lips, but she looked resolute. “We know what Fudge is. It’s Arthur’s fondness for Muggles that has held him back at the Ministry all these years. Fudge thinks he lacks proper wizarding pride.”

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I think it's stretching it a bit to say that because Arthur dozed off that he's "unreliable", and therefore other people in the Order are as well and that we should apply that to Molly too. The fact is that Arthur was both having to keep up his day job at the Ministry and take turns with night guard duty. I don't agree that simple human physical limitations say anything about a person's reliability or skill as a dueler.

I agree. That problem was actually addressed on page with Tonks. On the day Arthur escorted Harry to his hearing, Tonks was at Grimmauld Place that morning talking about how exhausted she was and Arthur offered to take her place for guard duty that night. That doesn't say anything against Tonks or Arthur's abilities in terms of dueling, IMO. I think that only shows how difficult the situation was for all of them and how they were pushing themselves to the limit in their efforts to fight against Voldemort. If anything, I would say that only shows how dedicated they all were.

It's noted (by Sirius, I think) that Mundungus was in the Order for his ability to gather & pass on information among what could be described as the underbelly of the wizarding community, much like an informant does for the police. But that has nothing to do with Molly; it's not "speculative" that she fought in the battle at Hogwarts, and it's not "speculative" that she challenged Bellatrix and beat her. That actually happens, it's book canon, and it speaks directly to the fact that Molly is a skilled fighter and dueler.

I believe Sirius mentioned that on Harry's first night at Grimmauld Place. Mundungus proved himself to be unreliable in that he would put his own "business" first - i.e. abandoning his post when guarding Harry to get stolen cauldrons. He also panicked when he saw Voldemort flying towards them in Seven Potters and disapparated. However, I don't think either of those would apply to his actual abilities in regards to dueling. Being selfish and not wanting to face Voldemort directly deal with his personality rather than his skill. The first issue was addressed with Mundungus being reprimanded for his lapse - the second wasn't because Mundungus apparently went into hiding after that and Harry was more concerned with finding the locket when he sent Kreacher after Mundungus.

I agree that would not apply to Molly at all. She would not have abandoned her post when standing guard or left a colleague to face Voldemort - or any other Death Eater - alone to save herself. That wasn't in her nature from what we're shown. Her skill at dueling was demonstrated on page in the duel with Bellatrix and the foundation for that was provided in the previous books through various information presented, IMO.

Tonks is given credibility because she's described as having trained as an Auror; yet we don't see her fighting described at all, just that she was there fighting alongside Lupin. It's my personal opinion that much of the dismissal of Molly's skills/abilities to fight and duel are -- in spite of the fact we see on-page that she can perform very well -- because she is viewed as "only a mother" or "mostly maternal", and therefore can't possibly have those abilities.

I agree. Plus there are frequent mentions of Tonks being clumsy and the difficulties that causes for her - tripping and falling or knocking things over, etc... Tonks even tells Harry that it's a problem and how she nearly flunked one of her classes in Auror training.

I don't think anyone is trying to say that the Order of the Phoenix consisted of only the "elite". The majority of the Order consisted of regular people who were taking a stand against Voldemort. Just like all the parents and shopkeepers who showed up as reinforcements in the final battle. They all fought and, as far as we're shown, fought well. The point being that you don't have to have specialized training to be capable of dueling or being skilled at it. Bellatrix certainly did not have any specialized training in dueling. She learned how to do that at Hogwarts the same as Molly did.

That's true for the Order members in general. There were three Aurors - one of which was retired - and the rest were just regular people taking a stand. But they knew how to duel and the assignments they were given required that because they would potentially be facing Death Eaters or people who had been Imperiused that would attack them. Molly was no different than the rest of the Order in that respect because the majority of them did have the same type of training in regards to dueling. The fact that she had kids doesn't change that, IMO.

[Sereena]

When arguing over whether or not Molly could defeat Bella you cannot use the fact that she did defeat her as an argument. It becomes rather circular.Willfitz I don't see why you are saying that I am speculating since I have not done so to my knowledge. I am objecting to the argument that Molly must have practiced dueling on her own since it is a theory presented as a fact. That is wrong, IMO.
I still don't see why DD asking Molly to join is connected to her skill since I see no evidence of this either. Not all Des were skilled so why should we assume all order members must be? Again not saying Molly isnt skilled simply that I see no evidence of her being skilled enough to defeat Bella without the maternal rage. Even if we assume that Molly was expected to duel those attempting to steal the prophecy, and we don't know that's a fact either, that is nothing compared to Bellatrix training, having been taught by voldemort and all, and battlefield experience from two wars. Besides the maternal factor I therefore see no reason for Molly succeeding where Aurors and other Order members failed.

[SnapesBane]

Originally Posted by Sereena

When arguing over whether or not Molly could defeat Bella you cannot use the fact that she did defeat her as an argument. It becomes rather circular.

I agree with this. If the only solid evidence is when it happens, it doesn't work. I think there's no precedence behind it. We have no other evidence to conclude that she possessed the skill to beat Bellatrix other than writer's fiat. The speculation that she practiced on her own time, was taught by her brothers, and other arguments don't hold up for me. We see clearly from OotP that her major duties for the Order include cooking, cleaning, and taking care of Order members and the children. This is what I think Dumbledore was referring to in GoF.

Do we know how many times she was on guard duty?

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I find nothing in the books to support your comments about what Molly "could have been". As Meesha noted in her post, JKR gives us enough information indicating that Molly is, indeed, a skilled and competent witch. The information provided by the author gives inference of that in the series, and and acknowledgement of Molly's skill by Dumbledore and others is shown on page once the second war begins at the end of GOF.

I'm not saying that Molly wasn't skilled or talented, I'm pointing out that saying she is skilled and talented based on the things we've heard about her family does not equate. If you say Molly is skilled and talented, don't give me "because we're told her family is" give me "because she was a great at dueling" or "because she put hard work into honing her craft" or the like. We are given evidence that Molly is skilled and talented and a capable witch but IMO that has nothing to do with the talent of the people she happens to be related to.

Again, I find nothing in the books to support the view that Molly didn't have a good relationship with her brothers. In fact, I do find that Molly's giving Fabian's watch to Harry as an indication of her fondness for her brother, as she loved Harry like a son and would be unlikely to give him a "coming of age" gift that belonged to someone she did not like.

There's very little in canon to suggest that Molly and her brothers were on the best of terms, either. Death and distance from that death can cause a person to reevaluate relationships with people you might not have been best friends with and I personally don't feel like Molly giving Harry her brother's old watch was indicative of her closeness to that brother, it's more indicative to me of passing a family heirloom on to a boy she considers part of her family and it happens to be an item that she seems to have understood that Ron wouldn't have appreciated but that Harry would have having no family and virtually no heirlooms of his own. I'm not saying that Molly and Fabian weren't loving siblings or that she didn't care for or about him at all, I'm saying that the act of passing on a family heirloom isn't indicative of the relationship of the person who originally owned the item and the person doing the giving - otherwise I'd be forced to believe that the relationship between my grandmother and her aunt was the picture of love and happiness when I know for a fact that my grandmother's aunt was a mean, spiteful woman to just about everyone including my grandmother.

The evidence in the books is pretty clear. Bella initially mocks Molly, but quickly becomes serious when she realizes Molly is not an easy opponent, and I think we can all agree that Bellatrix would be a good judge of skill. I think it's a very safe assumption that dueling/fighting skills of the level Molly shows in her duel with Bella are considerable, and likely to have long been part of her arsenal.

My own interpretation of that moment is that Bellatrix is rightfully mocking Molly's challenge to duel because she knows that Molly is not the best dueler ever - but what Molly has on her side is the power of conviction, of love for her daughter, the love of a mother, which ends up being more powerful that Bellatrix's skill on her righteous adherance to an ideal. A quote from the movie Robin Hood Prince of Theives comes to mind:

Kevin Costner as Robin Hood "One free man, defending his home, is more powerful then 10 hired soldiers"

Likewise, one mother defending her child is more powerful than any crazed madwoman fighting for an ideal. At least to me. Molly's one inexplicable moment of dueling greatness does not mean to me that she is a fantastic dueler in every way, it means that she is probably a competant dueler who had the very best reason in the world to win that fight.

I think that's quite an assumption, and find no evidence in the books to suggest that Molly would be expected to merely "call for help". Anyone assigned would be the main line of defense, and I doubt the DE's or imperiused intruders would take a time-out so that Molly -- or anyone else -- could "notify the Order". The whole point of a sentry, I believe, is to be the first line of defense, meant to stop/thwart intrusion or attack....which implies the "sentry" has to be able to defend and attack immediately until backup arrives.

My underlining.

Exactly. That person only has to be competant enough to stave off attackers until back up arrives. (More on this later in the post)

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Exactly. The watch was symbolic of Harry being part of the family and it meant a great deal to Harry because of that. Molly passing that watch on to Harry in such an emotional moment also demonstrated her close relationship with Fabian

As stated above, I don't think the act of bequeathing a dead relative's stuff to someone else is indicative of the relationship between the giver and the original owner. I agree that Molly seemed aware that Harry would appreciate having Fabian's watch more than Ron would have (who would have seen it as another crummy hand-me-down and would have appreciated something new more) but I can't bring myself to believe that this act alone means that Molly and Fabian were the best of buds.

and I believe he was the one Moody said it took five Death Eaters to bring down. There is an underlying comparison to the twins and Ginny in that - they strike me as being a lot like Gideon, Fabian, and Molly. I think that was why Molly was always so frustrated with the twins. She saw so much potential in them because they were like her brothers and she was afraid they were wasting it on the idea of a joke shop - but once she realized they knew what they were about and made a success of it, she was quite proud of them.

I don't see that at all. Molly seemed frustrated with the twins because they apparently had a lack of academic ambitions, not because they had "the same potential as her brothers" who would have also, to her, I'll point out, appeared to have thrown that potential down the toilet. We know virtually nothing about Gideon and Fabian, their ambitions, their potential and how like the twins they might have been and we know even less of what Molly actually thought of them. If anything to me this comparison between the twin and Molly and her brothers suggests that Molly had just as contentious a relationship with her brothers as she did with her sons. Yes, she loved her sons but that didn't stop her from being critical of them or their choices and of disapproving of them and their actions.

I agree. I think Bellatrix's reaction when she realizes that Molly is a powerful opponent who will genuinely challenge her speaks for itself. However, I also think that's why the evidence presented about Molly being home alone so much during the first war is significant. That was a time when people were regularly being attacked in their homes - as both Sirius and Arthur tell the trio. The Weasleys were not only considered blood traitors, there was also a great deal of enmity between Arthur and Lucius Malfoy. Knowing that, I think it is extremely likely that Molly had to fend off attacks in their home while Arthur was working overtime.

I find it hard to believe that Molly would be "fending off attacks" every other day or however often they might have come. We don't know where the Death Eaters attacks happened during the first war, if they were localized to large cities, if they took place in the countryside, if they were primarily happening around Scotland or in Wales or if there were so many death eaters in Britain that there were fifty attacks a day in every county. Fear is an amazing thing and causing fear in someone a hundred miles from the place where something bad happens isn't difficult to do. Causing fear in your neighbor isn't hard to do. All it takes to scare somebody is the possibility of something bad happening and the existence of someone or something that could make that possibility a reality. That's how Voldemort worked, too, especially in the second war! He didn't come out and simply take over the Ministry because he knew the worry and fear caused by people wondering if he was back or not was more effective than simply implanting himself as the Minister of Magic and telling everyone "I'm back!"

Absolutely. Furthermore, whoever was standing guard would not be able to call for any immediate help - as we see when Arthur was attacked.

Arthur was asleep!

There were no portraits down on that level at the Ministry. They were completely alone and isolated. At best, they might be able to send out a patronus, but that would go out to Order members who were not at the Ministry so they would still have to be able to defend and attack until backup arrived. When Molly took her turn standing guard at the Ministry, she had to be able to duel in the event that Death Eaters or Imperiused intruders attempted to break through.

Again, we're making assumptions about what "guard duty" actually entailed. Were they the first line defense of the DOM? If so that's a pretty thin defense - one stunner to the guard and the death eaters would be free to just walk on through and go about their business. Were they meant to be a look out to send out an alert if someone showed up and be a first line of defense? That makes a little more sense with the Order member being under the invisibility cloak and with there only being one person there standing guard - they would only have to fend off the intruders for a minute or two until the other Order members apparate either straight to the corridor or into the lobby and come down the the basement - but that's still a massive risk having a single guard against two, three or even more death eaters in a confined space where spells would be riccocheting around; that single guard wouldn't stand a chance. Were they meant to be a look out and a spy? As in, send for back up and then stalk the intruders through the DOM until backup arrived so it would be a more fair fight? Perhaps. It took the trio several tries to find the hall of prophecies, why would it not take the death eater intruders an equally long amount of time giving Order backup a chance to arrive? The point is, we don't know enough about what "guard duty" meant to say that only really accomplished order members could do it and that's why Molly was a guard.

That would be the point actually. Molly had the same type and amount of training as the other Order members. Aurors could be viewed as an exception because there are three years of additional training - though that appears to primarily focus on things like stealth and concealment or law enforcement rather than dueling. However, there are only three Aurors in the Order - one of which was retired. The rest of the Order consisted of everyday people like Molly who learned how to duel at Hogwarts and applied what they learned defending themselves and others during both wars. The Order was not an army of military trained soldiers or Ministry trained wizards from the department of Magical Law Enforcement. They were parents, teachers, office workers, and even unemployed - just regular, everyday people who knew how to fight and were trying to make a difference by taking a stand.

Hogwarts doesn't teach its students how to duel, though. (More on that later) And while the Order was a pretty ragtag concoction of people it doesn't follow that simiply because they were in the Order they were skilled at dueling; in fact it's pretty clear that several of the Order members during the second war were there for other reasons (Mundungus for his connections to back-alley criminal types, Arthur for his position in the Ministy so nobody would question his presence outside office hours, Kingsley as much for his employment in a Ministry office as much as for his skills as an auror, Hagrid for his connections to the giants cause he's no great shakes at magic, Remus for his connections and ability to spy on the werewolves as much as for his previous contributions to the Order in the first war)

That wasn't the case with Molly. It was shown on page that Dumbledore personally asked her to join.

He never states that he asked her and Arthur to join because of their great dueling skills, though, or because of any other sets of talents they have. Dumbledore would have known how valuable it would be to have as many Ministry insiders as possible to keep an eye on what's going on there and I think he knew Molly considered Harry as good as a son and would be just as protective over him as with her own children and so would be just as invaluable in having around to keep an eye on Harry as Arthur would be keeping an eye on the Ministry.

Originally Posted by MasterOfDeath

This brings up another point. Where do wizards learn to duel? Are dueling clubs popular? Do they only learn from DADA classes? Did Voldemort train all his death eaters like a military? Did Dumbledore train all his Order members to fight and duel? Or do they just practice on their own?

Hogwarts doesn't appear to teach its students to duel.

In COS, circumstances arose leading Lockhart to form a dueling club which seemed unprecedented, or at least not a club that has been in existance before COS.

In third year, Lupin teaches his students all about dark creatures, not how to duel.

MoodyCrouch focuses on the unforgivable curses and how to throw them off, not how to avoid having them them cast on you in the first place which would, I assume, be apart of how to duel: how to not get hit by spells.

Umbridge is so useless as a teacher than the students are forced to form Dumbledore's Army which is where Harry's generation learns all of their dueling skills, including older students like Fred, George, Katie Bell, Alicia Spinnet and Angelina Johnson (the last two being 7th years during OOTP so apparently not even 7th years were learning how to duel) etc.

Originally Posted by willfitz

I think it's just like real life. If you have a knife, you can attack people with it. The difference is, everyone in the WW has a very powerful weapon on them at all times.

That doesn't mean everyone in the wizarding world automatically knew how to duel, though; a knife and a wand are very different things. It takes no skill to stab someone; you or I or anyone else in the world is capable is stabbing someone but if I had to participate in a knife fight I know 100% I'd get cut the @#$% up. Dueling, like shooting a gun, being accurate with a bow and arrow, sword play or knife fighting, is a learned skill that takes a lot of time, patience and practice. Similarly, just because you know the mechanics of a spell it doesn't mean you could weild it effectually your first time casting it - remember Harry's thoughts about being glad he started with disarming in the DA? Because so many people were bad at it or couldn't do it at all. Dueling takes practice.

Incidentally, it isn't like Bellatrix went through Auror training, either. Duelling seems to be just like fighting in the real world. Sure, the police get special training in hand-to-hand combat and combat with weapons (Aurors), and some people do it for sport (Flitwick was a duelling champion), but everyone can fight, and would if pressed into it, to varying degrees.

No, Bellatrix never went through auror training but do I believe she got some level of advanced training from Voldemort? Yes, it's very likely. Do I believe she is a great dueler because she's gotten a lot of practice over her years of debauchery and crime? Yes, absolutely. Does she have a really good reason to be a skilled dueler? Yes, yes yes!

Now Molly: Is it likely she was taught to duel in Hogwarts? IMO, no. Could she have learned how to duel from her brothers? Yes, likely. Do I think she had a lot of opportunity for "continued education" on dueling after she left school, married Arthur and started pumpin' out kids? IMO, no because I don't believe for a second that she was being attacked by death eaters in protection of her home and children - I don't believe they were even attacked once or it would have come up in canon. So all of her skills had to be learned before she got married, therefore by the time the second war comes around and she's joining the Order of the Phoenix she's majorly out of practice and has to spend some serious time relearning stuff she'd learned 20+ years before and Bellatrix, in their showdown, is clearly the more skilled opponent in that match since she's merely brushing up on things skills she used probably once at week for ~11 years (at the very least). Does Molly need to be more skilled than Bellatrix to win that duel? No! She needed better motivation than Bellatrix and a bigger desire to win, which she did, which, IMO, is why she won. It wasn't a win due to skill, it was a win due to motivation.

Originally Posted by Sereena

Minerva and Bellatrix are secondary characters and their skill is both shown and commented on several times.

, and while I'm at it, to the rest of your post.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I agree that would not apply to Molly at all. She would not have abandoned her post when standing guard or left a colleague to face Voldemort - or any other Death Eater - alone to save herself. That wasn't in her nature from what we're shown. Her skill at dueling was demonstrated on page in the duel with Bellatrix and the foundation for that was provided in the previous books through various information presented, IMO.

What is this foundation? Do we have comments from other characters specifically in regards to her dormant dueling skills or is it all inference and supposition from the rather vague comments about her family? Her brothers are the only ones specifically said to have talents in dueling but I don't buy for a second that because they were good at something she is good at that same thing. By that logic, Ron should be good at quidditch because his brothers were good at quidditch, Sirius should be a pureblood idealist because his family are pureblood idealists, Aberforth should have believed in The Greater Good because Albus believed in it... Quotes please.

I don't think anyone is trying to say that the Order of the Phoenix consisted of only the "elite". The majority of the Order consisted of regular people who were taking a stand against Voldemort. Just like all the parents and shopkeepers who showed up as reinforcements in the final battle. They all fought and, as far as we're shown, fought well. The point being that you don't have to have specialized training to be capable of dueling or being skilled at it. Bellatrix certainly did not have any specialized training in dueling. She learned how to do that at Hogwarts the same as Molly did.

I never have said the Order was made of "elite" fighters or anything like that so in that regard I agree. However, as I said before, you do need some level or practice to be good at something like dueling or everything that you do is purely by-the-seat-of-your-pants fighting which I believe was a lot of what was going on in the battle of Hogwarts.

Also, as I said above, I don't think and we really don't have evidence for Hogwarts teaching its students to duel. Learning a spell in a classroom is very different than performing that spell in a one-on-one, life or death situation, or even under the pressures of competition as Flitwick would have done. Furthermore, Molly and Bellatrix might have learned their dueling skills around the same time or received similar type training in dueling at the outset but the difference is that Bellatrix went on to use those skills repeated for years and years before she was locked up and probably received tutoring from Voldemort himself and certaining her other death eater friends whereas Molly went on to get married, have babies and use her skills at knitting and cleaning a million times more often than she used her skills at dueling. If you don't use it you lose it and while Molly may not have "lost" all her skills she certainly wasn't in peak shape and probably had to work a lot at relearning those skills and improving them.