Albus S. Potter - Slytherin or Gryffindor? v.2

[Hes]

Here we discuss if Albus Severus Potter should be in Gryffindor or another house.

Last couple of posts of version one

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

Rowling's information on Pottermore said that the Hat was "determined" to put Neville into Gryffindor-- so I think Neville did quite well, extending his case to a length of four minutes. Hermione preferred Gryffindor, which ended up being the House she got over Ravenclaw after a similarly long debate with the Hat. Neither were technically Hat Stalls, though, as the only criteria is for the Sorting to take at least five minutes for it to be a Hat Stall. Perhaps there is a timer built in that gives the student a choice after a certain passage of time has elapsed, but the information on the Sorting Hat and Hat Stalls never goes into such a thing that I know of.

I don't think it has to be a Hat Stall for student choice to come into it. I do agree that the student has to possess the attribute that would make them do well in a House they wanted to be in (which is something I don't think is actually very difficult; it is very possible in my mind to possess bravery, intelligence, ambition, and fairmindedness, many or all at once. I think it would be a rare student who could only ever fit in one House only). I don't see that Harry's information about student choice contradicts the Pottermore information about Hat Stalls at all.

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

First, I don't think Harry's opinion contradicts the Pottermore info so much as it offers an incomplete understanding of the way the Hat works. Harry's comment is based on a sample of one (i.e., himself and his own personal experience). And his comment is often taken to mean that the student gets to tell the Hat where to put him/her and that the Hat will simply go along with it. Neville's experience shows that this is not true.

Second, I think we are just putting different emphases on the word "choice." When I responded to Dags' comment, I was using the word in the sense of the student actually getting to tell the Hat where he/she belongs (see above)... or being given a point-blank choice by the Hat. However, a point-blank choice ("do you want Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff"?) would seemingly occur only in the instance of a Hat Stall resulting in an authentic tie.

If I'm understanding you correctly, though, I think that you are using the word "choice" in the sense that the student's input is taken into account. Overall, I agree with you on that (as my previous post indicates). I also agree with you that most students would fit well into multiple Houses and that it would be a rare student who would fit well only into one. But for that hypothetical student, choice would not make a difference.

So I would argue that choice is not the final determinant. The Hat is. Choice may play a role, but if the Hat is determined to put a student into a specific House (as it was with Neville), then there is no amount of arguing that will get the student out of that House and into another.

Fair enough?

[Jenna_Keatley]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

So I would argue that choice is not the final determinant. The Hat is. Choice may play a role, but if the Hat is determined to put a student into a specific House (as it was with Neville), then there is no amount of arguing that will get the student out of that House and into another.

So that's why I'm a Gryffindor on Pottermore!

In all seriousness, though, I absolutely agree. The opinion of the student only seems to come into play when the hat is looking for the student's opinion.

So, to bring this back around to the debate of whether little Albus would be in Gryffindor or Slytherin, it depends on what the hat has in mind. Perhaps the hat is determined to put him in Slytherin or even Hufflepuff, and his desire to be in Gryffindor like his family wouldn't matter.

As I've said before, the only house that would actually surprise me for Albus, not knowing much about the character himself, would be Ravenclaw.

[Daggerstone]

Originally Posted by Hes

Here we discuss if Albus Severus Potter should be in Gryffindor or another house.

My vote goes to "another house".

"The whisper was for his father alone, and Harry knew that only the moment of departure could have forced Albus to reveal how great and sincere that fear was." - DH, Epilogue

Not exactly a Gryffindor trait, fear of a hat, is it?

[Jenna_Keatley]

I don't think fear of uncertainty about the future should be counted against him in terms of traits that would or would not land him in Gryffindor. I see this as being the same as applying to multiple colleges/universities and being afraid that your top choice won't accept you.

[BrianTung]

Originally Posted by Daggerstone

My vote goes to "another house".

"The whisper was for his father alone, and Harry knew that only the moment of departure could have forced Albus to reveal how great and sincere that fear was." - DH, Epilogue

Not exactly a Gryffindor trait, fear of a hat, is it?

While that's provocative, I'm not sure how significant it really is. The point of that passage, if I recall correctly, was that Albus's fear, though genuine, was ultimately rooted in a misconception about Slytherin. I think Rowling wanted to convey that Harry had overcome his old bias against Slytherin house, and was working to pass that on to his kids as well.

That's not to say that Rowling couldn't have had another purpose there--she's certainly capable of that--but I think the principal purpose was to temper the pall cast over Slytherin house.

As for the original question, the traits that we see in Albus in his short appearance--introverted, concern over fitting in, forthright (in contrast to his puckish brother), and a certain determination--put me in mind of Hufflepuff house. And it occurs to me that that's sort of my sentimental choice, too; in my imagination, I'd like to see him give Hufflepuff a real identity, as opposed to this "leftovers" image that the books project. But short of Rowling herself saying, there's no real way to be sure.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

First, I don't think Harry's opinion contradicts the Pottermore info so much as it offers an incomplete understanding of the way the Hat works. Harry's comment is based on a sample of one (i.e., himself and his own personal experience). And his comment is often taken to mean that the student gets to tell the Hat where to put him/her and that the Hat will simply go along with it. Neville's experience shows that this is not true.

Second, I think we are just putting different emphases on the word "choice." When I responded to Dags' comment, I was using the word in the sense of the student actually getting to tell the Hat where he/she belongs (see above)... or being given a point-blank choice by the Hat. However, a point-blank choice ("do you want Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff"?) would seemingly occur only in the instance of a Hat Stall resulting in an authentic tie.

If I'm understanding you correctly, though, I think that you are using the word "choice" in the sense that the student's input is taken into account. Overall, I agree with you on that (as my previous post indicates). I also agree with you that most students would fit well into multiple Houses and that it would be a rare student who would fit well only into one. But for that hypothetical student, choice would not make a difference.

So I would argue that choice is not the final determinant. The Hat is. Choice may play a role, but if the Hat is determined to put a student into a specific House (as it was with Neville), then there is no amount of arguing that will get the student out of that House and into another.

Fair enough?

When I asked if I was missing something, I wasn't being rhetorical; I was actually wondering if there was some info on Pottermore about the Sorting Hat that i missed.

I think our opinions are close, but you are right and we are using "choice" --and also"Hat Stall", since I was using the literal definition from Pottermore and you seem to be using it more for "Hat Offers Choice of House"-- for slightly different meanings.

I agree that a student can't simply tell the Hat where to put them and have the Hat simply comply. Neville makes an interesting case, though: The Hat was determined to put him into Gryffindor, but Neville thought he should go into Hufflepuff. What makes that case interesting to me is that the Hat was determined to have its way, yet the situation nearly resulted in a Hat Stall due to Neville's resistance. If this was a case of only the Hat's will mattering, then Neville's sorting should have been over in two seconds.

I think if a new student shows attributes that match several Houses equally, the Hat can take the student's preference into account to tip the balance and Sort them quickly. Perhaps that is what you mean by the Hat giving the student the choice. However, I think this situation is less likely to result in a Hat Stall. I think Hat Stalls come about when the Hat sees one House ahead of the others but the student has a different idea about what House would be best. I think this is what happened in Hermione's case, as she was also nearly a Hat Stall (ETA: to be clear, by Hat Stall I mean a Sorting that takes longer than five minutes) between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw. And I don't think Neville's Sorting would have gone so long if his case didn't have merit, and if the Hat which was so determined to place him into Gryffindor wasn't willing to hear him out or take his wishes into account. It seems to me that the Hat Stalls go to the cases where the student and Hat have different preferences, and so the debate between them is longer.

Originally Posted by BrianTung

While that's provocative, I'm not sure how significant it really is. The point of that passage, if I recall correctly, was that Albus's fear, though genuine, was ultimately rooted in a misconception about Slytherin. I think Rowling wanted to convey that Harry had overcome his old bias against Slytherin house, and was working to pass that on to his kids as well.

To me, the point was that Harry was trying to tell Al that he always had a choice, and that being in Slytherin House--or any other House-- would not stop him from making his own choices about what sort of person he would be. Harry went on to tell Al that he could start making his choices right then, and tell the Hat what he wanted, and that that choice would matter to the Sorting Hat. I saw the exchange as transending House, and Harry was trying to make the point to his son that it will be his choices as an individual that determine what kind of person he is.

Originally Posted by Jenna_Keatley

I don't think fear of uncertainty about the future should be counted against him in terms of traits that would or would not land him in Gryffindor. I see this as being the same as applying to multiple colleges/universities and being afraid that your top choice won't accept you.

I agree. Eleven year old Harry was pretty nervous at his Sorting, but that didn't stop the Hat from seeing bravery in him.

ETA 2: Although I think the exchange between Harry and Al emphasizes that House doesn't matter to the choice of what kind of person one chooses to be, and thus renders moot to the story which House Al actually gets Sorted into, if the story were to continue I would like to see him in Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff, just for a change of pace, and new territory to cover.

[Divvie]

Originally Posted by BrianTung

The point of that passage, if I recall correctly, was that Albus's fear, though genuine, was ultimately rooted in a misconception about Slytherin. I think Rowling wanted to convey that Harry had overcome his old bias against Slytherin house, and was working to pass that on to his kids as well.

Perhaps you are right in thinking that this was JKR's intention.

If so, however, I think she failed because imo all she did was to reinforce the Gryffindor bias for bravery and not actually mapping out Albus's skills while addressing their relevance to Slytherin strengths.

If her intention was to make Slytherin sound acceptable, I feel she still hasn't made a case at all. The children's attitude is just a continuous reflection of this bias because Albus did not seem to come out of his little chat with the perception that Slytherin house could be cool in itself. He only got the reassurance (imo) that he would still be "acceptable" to his family based on a past "hero" who seemed to have had the misfortune to have been Slyth.

To me, it is just another form of the same old dig as the unfortunate comment by DD to Snape about how he sometimes felt they would sort too soon (in essence meaning that Snape was showing strong Gryffindor qualities and was too good for Slytherin). It's that sort of backhanded compliment that imo is just a veiled insult. Funnily enough, I don't even think that JKR is conscious about this but that's how I - as a self-professed Slytherin - see it.

I still feel that Albus would have ended up in Gryffindor because there seems to be a tendency for house traits to run in families (so the Hat would have enough to go on) plus he obviously wants to. If however he'd be sorted elsewhere, he gives the impression that he - and his siblings - would have been satisfied as long as it wasn't Slytherin ...

Hardly a case for overcoming past bias imo.

[wolfbrother]

I think the point of that scene was to show that Harry had overcome his bias with the Slytherin house. His kids would have to learn that for themselves.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by Divvie

If her intention was to make Slytherin sound acceptable, I feel she still hasn't made a case at all. The children's attitude is just a continuous reflection of this bias because Albus did not seem to come out of his little chat with the perception that Slytherin house could be cool in itself. He only got the reassurance (imo) that he would still be "acceptable" to his family based on a past "hero" who seemed to have had the misfortune to have been Slyth.

To me, it is just another form of the same old dig as the unfortunate comment by DD to Snape about how he sometimes felt they would sort too soon (in essence meaning that Snape was showing strong Gryffindor qualities and was too good for Slytherin). It's that sort of backhanded compliment that imo is just a veiled insult. Funnily enough, I don't even think that JKR is conscious about this but that's how I - as a self-professed Slytherin - see it.

I agree. I thought that "we sort too soon" remark of Dumbledore's was horrible actually and an insult to 25% of his students. I can't really blame the dark side for having such prejudice if the people on the good side aren't much better either (though I can certainly blame the dark side for acting on their prejudice).

I think the comment is intended to show us that there is potential for house unity but like you say, what Harry basically says is that just because you happen to be a Slytherin doesn't mean you can't turn out well anyway. This is rather different from admitting that there are good people and bad people in all houses. The kid certainly seemed comforted by Harry's assurance but no, I don't think he would be too pleased to end up in Slytherin. Nor do I think any children of Harry and Ginny's would have the qualities which Slytherin values but who knows?

[AccioDoubleStuf]

Why does it have to be Slytherin or Gryffindor? Why not Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw? (In my head, he's Ravenclaw)

[Divvie]

Originally Posted by AccioDoubleStuf

(In my head, he's Ravenclaw)

Based on what? I'm just being curious

[Peakes]

Originally Posted by Daggerstone

Not exactly a Gryffindor trait, fear of a hat, is it?

Having a fear about something doesn't preclude being "worthy" of Gryffindor; indeed, it takes a certain bravery to admit that fear (especially for an 11 year old) and for that reason, I think A.S.P. would be a worthy Gryffindor - if the hat so decided.

Indeed, if no-one was eligible for Gryffindor by virtue of being nervous about their sorting, then Gryffindor would be a very empty house!

[cardinalguy]

Originally Posted by Daggerstone

Not exactly a Gryffindor trait, fear of a hat, is it?

"You can't have courage unless you're afraid. If you don't have fear, there's nothing to be brave about." -Joe Torre

[StarsAndShadows]

Originally Posted by AccioDoubleStuf

Why does it have to be Slytherin or Gryffindor? Why not Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw? (In my head, he's Ravenclaw)

I, too, wonder why Albus' Sorting should be limited to Slytherin or Gryffindor. We actually know very little about him, except the fact that his older brother has been teasing him with fear of Slytherin. Actually, I wonder where James' apparent prejudice against Slytherin, and his use of it to scare Albus, come from. Obviously not from their father.

I'm not sure Albus is bright enough to be in Ravenclaw, but then we don't know, not any more than we know whether he's actually ambitious and cunning enough to be in Slytherin, brave enough to be in Gryffindor, loyal and hard-working enough to be in Hufflepuff.

IMO, at this stage, all options are open. The Sorting Hat will know... Unless it stalls. That would be interesting, wouldn't it?

[AccioDoubleStuf]

It would be interesting if Albus was a hat stall. I wonder when the last one was; I imagine it hasn't happened in a while, so people would get surprised. And, you're right, we don't know enough about any of the characters to now for 100% what house they're all in. Even for the ones already in Hogwarts, like James and Victoire, it doesn't say what house they're in. I've seen fanart and fanfiction where Albus is in all four of the houses, of course the most prominent being green and red, instead of yellow or blue.

Based on what? I'm just being curious

Just in my head canon and to be different. Like I said, we don't know that much about the characters to actually determine what house they're in, so I chose Ravenclaw. Others will choose yellow, red or green for Albus because that's what they see him in; I chose blue.

[jookyle]

I would really hope he was Slytherin. It'd be much more interesting and to read about if he were.

[Rew]

Originally Posted by Divvie

Perhaps you are right in thinking that this was JKR's intention.

If so, however, I think she failed because imo all she did was to reinforce the Gryffindor bias for bravery and not actually mapping out Albus's skills while addressing their relevance to Slytherin strengths.

If her intention was to make Slytherin sound acceptable, I feel she still hasn't made a case at all. The children's attitude is just a continuous reflection of this bias because Albus did not seem to come out of his little chat with the perception that Slytherin house could be cool in itself. He only got the reassurance (imo) that he would still be "acceptable" to his family based on a past "hero" who seemed to have had the misfortune to have been Slyth.

To be fair, it's only a five-minute conversation that takes place over a span of less than ten pages. You're not going to see any character realistically overcome a natural bias in that short span of time.

If Rowling had decided to develop the new generation more, I suspect we would've started here at the Epilogue, with Albus's deep reservations about Slytherin. Later, as we watch him throughout the school year (regardless of which House he got Sorted into), I like to think we would've gradually seen him overcoming that bias.

But I think what wolfbrother said above is the best answer--the point is that Harry has overcome his ingrained prejudice, after seven books of suffering at the hands of those from Slytherin House, and now he's attempting to lead his children to do the same.

Originally Posted by Sereena

I agree. I thought that "we sort too soon" remark of Dumbledore's was horrible actually and an insult to 25% of his students. I can't really blame the dark side for having such prejudice if the people on the good side aren't much better either (though I can certainly blame the dark side for acting on their prejudice).

I'm reasonably certain that Dumbledore's remark to Snape there was meant merely in jest. It fits quite well with his rather quirky sense of humor.

I don't think his remark ought to be taken seriously at all because after all, we don't see Dumbledore actually advocating for a delay in the Sorting anywhere else in the series.

Originally Posted by cardinalguy

"You can't have courage unless you're afraid. If you don't have fear, there's nothing to be brave about." -Joe Torre

This, ladies and gentlemen, is the sound of a nail being hit right on the head.

Originally Posted by jookyle

I would really hope he was Slytherin. It'd be much more interesting and to read about if he were.

In my own personal head canon, I like to think that Albus does wind up Sorted into Slytherin. Sure, he'll try to request Gryffindor, but just as the hat denied Hufflepuff to Neville in favor of Gryffindor, so the hat will deny Gryffindor to Albus in favor of Slytherin.

I don't tend to think the hat has any ulterior motives per se, but I think it would make a more interesting story, as if it is Albus's destiny to bring about that House unity that many are talking about in this thread, and the idea of which his father Harry has planted in his mind by telling him that if Sorted in Slytherin, then Slytherin will have gained a great wizard.

He'll hate it at first and be embarrassed, but will in time grow to love his House. (Remember that Rowling said Slytherin in the Epilogue era is not quite as nasty as it was in Harry's day when the students still had Death Eaters in their families.) I see him as eventually becoming a Seeker for the Slytherin Quidditch team and becoming one of the greatest players Hogwarts has seen since Charlie Weasley and Harry Potter. He leads Slytherin to winning Quidditch Cups, beating his brother James in numerous Slytherin-Gryffindor matches, and breaks many of his father's old records--such that it becomes a running joke between father and son that maybe Harry should've been harder on Slytherin that day at King's Cross when Albus boarded the Hogwarts Express for the first time.

[Warlock27]

If it really means that much to him he can choose Gryffindor.

[StarsAndShadows]

Originally Posted by Rew

I don't tend to think the hat has any ulterior motives per se, but I think it would make a more interesting story, as if it is Albus's destiny to bring about that House unity that many are talking about in this thread, and the idea of which his father Harry has planted in his mind by telling him that if Sorted in Slytherin, then Slytherin will have gained a great wizard.

He'll hate it at first and be embarrassed, but will in time grow to love his House. (Remember that Rowling said Slytherin in the Epilogue era is not quite as nasty as it was in Harry's day when the students still had Death Eaters in their families.) I see him as eventually becoming a Seeker for the Slytherin Quidditch team and becoming one of the greatest players Hogwarts has seen since Charlie Weasley and Harry Potter. He leads Slytherin to winning Quidditch Cups, beating his brother James in numerous Slytherin-Gryffindor matches, and breaks many of his father's old records--such that it becomes a running joke between father and son that maybe Harry should've been harder on Slytherin that day at King's Cross when Albus boarded the Hogwarts Express for the first time.

That's a fantastically cool idea!

I never thought about such a turn of events, and now, though I was set against Al being Sorted into Slytherin, you almost convinced me that it would be a great thing leading to great results.

[Divvie]

Originally Posted by Rew

...
In my own personal head canon, I like to think that Albus does wind up Sorted into Slytherin. ...

I think it would make a more interesting story, as if it is Albus's destiny to bring about that House unity that many are talking about in this thread

Obviously you - like everybody else here - are entitled to your opinion, and as this is pure speculation, there won't be a "right or wrong" in any case, or at least until JKR comes up with a "definite" answer.

And I actually agree with you that it would be a much more interesting story if Albus Severus was actually sorted into Slytherin.

However, imo, there has been no indication that he has any Slytherin traits, he appears keen enough to me to become Gryffindor and with having a strong family background in Gryffindorish-ness (his mother stems from a family dynasty of Gryffindors which seems as well be the case for at least 2 generations on his father's side), I am afraid I still feel the odds of him turning out Gryffindor are higher than those of him turning out something else, boring as that might be